Education summary
 

Hi All,

I'm trying to compare the Canadian education system with what is in the UK. I've found some old threads (when I finally guessed the correct terms to search for), and just want to summarise to see if I have things right.

Summary
It is a difficult comparison to make!

In the UK the government and media are obsessed at how many more kids passed exams this year as opposed to last, and it's all about study and the all important 'A' grade. You get highly stressed out kids where they see their GCSE/A level result as the difference between rags and riches.

In Canada the school system is more into moulding the individual, and creating a good 'all rounder' and therefore the focus isn't on push, push, push. As a result the student is more relaxed and more likely to more on into higher education, rather than want out at the earliest opportunity.

I know the last sentence of each of those paragraphs tries to draw a comparison, but do I have it about right?

Regards

Chris

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I disgree. Consider the case of my second daughter. She took the Bac and did well at it but, because the subjects for the Bac were not the same as the mandatory ones, she had to take some basic subjects at night school. At first this was just physics but as the final exams drew near more school time was devoted to SAT cramming classes so history also got bumped out of regular hours. She said that her fellow students at night school were mainly kids who were doing wll in regular school but who wanted, or were driven to want, to get ahead. She is, perhaps, an all rounder, but ice hockey, figure skating, swimming, ballet, sailing and so on took place out of school hours. We used spreadsheets and wall charts to keep track of it all.

Note that while I wanted my children to go to university, I didn't have a more specific aim. This is unusual here. My colleagues generally have very specific objectives for their children and drive them hard towards those objectives; a sports scholarship, entry to a particular university, that sort of thing. Two of my daughters have been able to make decent money tutoring younger students, not ones who were failing, but ones who weren't quite winning.

Perhaps the most telling measure of the values of the school system is the graduation ceremony. At the ones I have attended (lots, as it's also the prize giving night for students who are not yet graduating) the graduates are announced in the order of scholarship money they will receive. "Josephine Blow has been awarded the XYZ scholarship, worth $n,000 and will attend Brandeis. Abgnetha Bloggs has been awarded a full lacrosse scholarship and will attend Brown". There's no room in the annoucements for "Mildred Smithers who did rather well for someone with one parent and will be taking a nursing degree locally".

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I don't like the sound of that. Way to make the average students feel probably less than average. :(

Chris

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Well, yes, but it's a competitive system. At schools where the Bac is offered students who are not taking it are very much in the "dunce's class".

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My experience has been different from dbd33's, and is consistent with the summary of the Canadian educational system that you provided in your original post.

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Thanks Judy,

I suppose experiences could differ between schools across the road from each other. I guess it's a matter of getting your kid into the right one.

Regards

Chris

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Schools certainly differ. A friend of one of my daughters attended Riverdale, a large school in Toronto, where he was one of the three non-Asian students then enrolled. He makes the place sound intensely competitive, even compared to the French school.

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I grew up under the Canadian school system (a mix of private and public, so not quite the norm). My experience of the UK system is limited to what my HB has told me about his school years (also a mix of private and public), but from what I can gather about it I would say your summary is fairly correct. It seems to me, and I could well be misinformed, that there is a much greater emphasis on rote memorization in preparation for the nation-wide exams in the UK. I found that in Canada students were encouraged more to think subjectively about ideas and develop viewpoints and arguments to support their observations. HB says this does not really happen until university in the UK. He also can’t get over the fact there is no standardized nation-wide test in Canada (or province-wide test in most provinces) to provide a standard to judge schools and students by. It seems which system you find preferable is a very personal choice, judging by the debates on this issue on the board.

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They are trying to introduce this kind of system in BC but the delivery end of the thing (teachers and unions) are raging about it. Their protectionist fears are more about how it will be used than about actually having a system, from what I have seen and read.

Rich.

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We have recently moved to BC, a small town on Vancouver island. I had an open mind about the school system. However I would suggest that anyone who has a 16 /17 year old to think hard about bringing them until after 18. My daughter is far more mature than any of the students the same age. She is far more worldly wise than anyone we have yet to meet. Having worked in Uk out of school, in a good job weekends and holidays. It is quite shocking to come here and find that no one is expected to do anything until they are 18, and even then they compete against pensioners for jobs. She has practically nothing in common with anyone. The level of spelling and handwriting we have seen from adults alone when completing forms etc. at places we have been has also surprised us. She went to the school unable to do any studies and get credits because it was the "wrong time of year", but after I begged,was offered to sit in on classes where possible until February, so she could start to meet people and get a feeel for what they did. English,- she had studied what they were studyng two years ago, and the English teacher could not even spell it appeared. Biology, she was immediately put in year 12 class as year 11 was seen as too easy. Maths was also behind the work she did for GCSE.

The driving theory test is "difficult and has a 50% pass rate on first attempt" according to an instructor. She read the book a couple of times and did the online test several times and now has her provincal learners licence having never even turned on the ignition in a car and been in Canada 4 weeks!

We approached the college who make you jump through hoops to accept "under age applicants" Although they agree that completing school just to get a High School certificate is not really the best option for her with all here work experience, and school grades.

Before we left she was already taking the equivalent of a college diploma in Art, and I must admit I was really worried about coming at such a time in her life.
When you wait so long to get visas, you cant wait to come. There never is really a good time to come to suit all of you, especially teenagers. I have no regrets personally and see this as our home already. I have no desire to go back to UK. However for my daughters sake we are already talking about letting her go back to Uk to stay with family to let her complete her studies until she is 18. It is so much easy there than here at her age.
Also from a social point of view, teenagers in UK are a lot more mature than kids the same age here. We can't take here anywhere with us as she is under 19. In Uk where we lived she went to concerts, saw bands at pubs with us, and generally learnt how to be independant much quicker. Canada is a big place and I think city life is more favoured by teenagers, and probably has more to offer them education wise. I thought I had done enough research about the school system, but it is not until I got my daughters reaction I realised I may have made the worst decision for her I could at this time in her life. I just hope I can put it right with minimum disruption.
Bringing kids when they are young allows them to be moulded to the system. Bringing them so late in their life may backfire.
Teachers in Uk seem more interested in using the kids to make sure the school looks good as far as grades. They seem little interested in what the kids actually want to do in life.

In Canada they seem to encourage kids to take there time becoming an adult and entering the work force. This can be good, but also seems to produce non independant and lazier kids. If you dont go to university or college here then you are set for a very boring life. I am amazed at how even the most menial of jobs require some sort of certificate for. I am also amazed at how may companies and businesses want volunteers. Good jobs being given to retireess for no pay. This is why there seems less jobs available. Why pay someone when you can get another to work for free!

This is just my experience, and I am sure not the norm, but worth mentioning anyway.



QUOTE=chrisparr]Hi All,

I'm trying to compare the Canadian education system with what is in the UK. I've found some old threads (when I finally guessed the correct terms to search for), and just want to summarise to see if I have things right.

Summary
It is a difficult comparison to make!

In the UK the government and media are obsessed at how many more kids passed exams this year as opposed to last, and it's all about study and the all important 'A' grade. You get highly stressed out kids where they see their GCSE/A level result as the difference between rags and riches.

In Canada the school system is more into moulding the individual, and creating a good 'all rounder' and therefore the focus isn't on push, push, push. As a result the student is more relaxed and more likely to more on into higher education, rather than want out at the earliest opportunity.

I know the last sentence of each of those paragraphs tries to draw a comparison, but do I have it about right?

Regards

Chris[/QUOTE]

Re: Education summary
 

I am in Alberta and am very happy with the education system. My sons have to do the work, do the homework and if they do that then the teachers are happy and is like the image you have written about in the start of this thread. I do have a friend who has a son in the same school as my son. Been here since September and her first impression is the school was very strict. I could not believe she was talking about the same school. The problem she has in England her 14 year old son never did any homework and the teachers didn't mind. Within two weeks of being here she got called in to find out why her son had a 0 grade. Her son had not get his brain around having to do homework. Quite simple do the work, get a grade and teachers leave you alone. Plus remember there are no grade here, if you pass an exam with 80% then you get 80% not a grade B or C or A+**** depending on the goverment. I have already predicted that all students in Engand by 2008 will be so cleaver that all students at GCSE not only will all pass (cos they all pass now) but will all get 10 exams at grade A**. There will be no need to go to universitys because they will all get good degrees and so will have a 3 year gap year (like Prince Harry) and then get a job which needs a degree.

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T'other half's son is in his final year at school in the big TO. Last night he was talking about a philosophy essay he had to write about Pirates and Vikings and the relationship between them, and if pirates were an evolution of Vikings or not.

Don't think I ever had to write anything like that when I was at school. Certainly forces kids to think for themselves, rather than learning of by heart which features in the South West of England were examples of glacial formation...

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Gooding....you've got it - BC "education" ( I use the term loosely) in a nutshell. Can your daughter go home and complete her education before they deem her a non-resident back in Blighty? I am sending my daughter back home to the UK (and she will go back a year) to do two years of A levels. She wants to go to med school and was aiming for McGill, as UBC is too expensive and our only med school here in BC caters unhealthily to the rich kids. We may revisit that plan, depending on what I find in Ont when I get there. She is out of grade (one ahead) and is still bored to death, but is running BAC courses alongside her Grade 11 ones to at least keep the grey matter turning. She finds Chem 12 a challenge, but that's because she has never been taught Chemistry properly until now. I despair of the education standards in this province.

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I am a teacher in London and have been teaching in the UK for 5 years. I grew up in the Canadian school systems and taught in them for 4 years before coming to the UK.

I disagree that the Canadian school systems are more competitive. I also disagree that the standards are lower. There is very clear evidence on many levels to support this statement as well:

1. If you want to know where countries stand in terms of literacy and numeracy on an international level, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development is the world's watchdog. If you would like to see the nitty-gritties, go to www.oecd.org, click on "topic", then "education", followed by "statistics". You will find an informative chart that compares
countries in terms of student performance, adult education, etc. To save you the hassle, I can tell you that the UK does poorly in comparison to Canada (and many other countries, I might add). You also have to look at results from a few years back as the UK refused to hand in recent data last year and were heavily criticized for it both locally and abroad. It was the only country that failed to do so, likely because the state of education is not improving. The UK has many things to offer, but an excellent education system is not one!

2. In Britain, school funding is based on "value added" scores. In other words, how well your school is doing in terms of national test results. We teach to the test. Students that are 7,11, and 15 sit these exams and spend the entire year being "taught the test". Not well rounded education, I can tell you! The stress these children go under is enormous. I was never subjected to any of that in my day, nor did I have to teach in that environment. There is some standardised testing in Canada, however the results are not linked to school funding. They are used to simply monitor progress or flag weaknesses.

3. When I applied to teach in the UK, I had to provide my grades from both University and secondary school. What I found interesting is that the General Teaching Council took my grade 10 marks in maths, science and english to be the equivalent of GCSE completions (equivalent of grade 11 in the UK). What does this suggest?!

On a personal level, I have never seen such illiteracy in my life as I have teaching in a secondary school in the UK. It seems anyone with money sends their kids to private schools (like the politicians that make all the decisions). Can't say I blame them. It isn't like that in Canada.

I really enjoy living in London and adore the culture and history here. The proximity to Europe is fantastic as well. However, knowing what I know, I will go back to Canada to have kids.

Good luck!

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Presuming that we complete immigration by September this year (AOR 7/10/04) my our sons will be 13 and 15 when we go to Alberta, Edmonton area. My eldest son will be due to start 5th year having completed his Standard grades (Scotland). We have been advised that as his birthday is in December we would be better putting him into a year behind to give him more time to adjust to the new system. Any advice out there?!
Stu & Fiona

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The cut-off for entering children in school is December 31st, therefore if you have a child born in December, they are the youngest of the year group. Many parents choose to hold their children back for this reason. My mom is a teacher and she did that to my younger sister. You are in a different situation as your children are obviously not starting school.

Scotland is very progressive compared to England in terms of education. You may find that your child does not have any issues fitting in to the year group he or she should be in. If I were you, I would have my children assessed before making that decision. The school's special education/enrichment teacher should be able to that. There are tests called the CCAT (Canadian Cognitive and Abilities Tests) that should be able to give you a good idea where your children sit in terms of Canadian grades. You wouldn't want your child to be bored and repeating the same learning! :)

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In our office, twelve children between us, I am the only parent who sent his children to a publicly funded school. We elected to go with the public system because, by declaring the children to be francophone Catholics, we could get them into an elite school.

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You are obviously located in Toronto or Montreal. The rest of the country generally doesn't work that way. I have taught in 4 provinces in 4 years and can say that Ontario (greater Toronto) and Quebec are unique in that way.

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Thanks for the advice, its very much appreciated! We don't want to make the transition from Scotland to Canada any more difficult than it will obviously be.
Stu

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[QUOTE=Stuarty]Presuming that we complete immigration by September this year (AOR 7/10/04) my our sons will be 13 and 15 when we go to Alberta, Edmonton area. My eldest son will be due to start 5th year having completed his Standard grades (Scotland). We have been advised that as his birthday is in December we would be better putting him into a year behind to give him more time to adjust to the new system. Any advice out there?!
Stu & Fiona[/QUOTE]


In Alberta I have found it very common for parents to put their child a year behind. This is when they are just five years old and Mum doesn't want them to be the youngest in the class. I am an August Birthday and so is my son and we had no choice in England but to be the youngest. It didn't bother me or my son, we sucked it up and had birthday parties in the garden or at the outdoor swimming pool.

When we moved here my son was in year 5 in England but to be with his correct grade moved to grade 4 for 3 months and then did grade 5 again starting in the September. I must admit that he didn't do much work in grade 5 to get 99% average, but he is a smart kid and only does a small amount of work now to get 92% average. BUT he is happy to be with his age group, by coincidence all his friends are all born in August and all the same age, they will all start to drive together, they will all graduate together, and can all go for drink together when they are 18. If you put your children the grade behind just remember that simple things like going for a drink at 18 he will not be able to do until his friends turn 18 (the drinking laws are 100 times stricter than in England, not 18, then you can not get into a bar)

An earlier thread complained that the youth in Canada are not as mature. You know what I agree. Kids in Canada are kids!! A friend had a daughter who came over at 14. First few weeks at school, wore all the really trendy, designer clothes. By October, realised that her friends just worn jeans and tee shirt every day. Of course the youth do eventually mature but in their own time, they are allowed to develop and not be old and mature before they reach 12 years of age.

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In Alberta I have found it very common for parents to put their child a year behind. This is when they are just five years old and Mum doesn't want them to be the youngest in the class. I am an August Birthday and so is my son and we had no choice in England but to be the youngest. It didn't bother me or my son, we sucked it up and had birthday parties in the garden or at the outdoor swimming pool.

When we moved here my son was in year 5 in England but to be with his correct grade moved to grade 4 for 3 months and then did grade 5 again starting in the September. I must admit that he didn't do much work in grade 5 to get 99% average, but he is a smart kid and only does a small amount of work now to get 92% average. BUT he is happy to be with his age group, by coincidence all his friends are all born in August and all the same age, they will all start to drive together, they will all graduate together, and can all go for drink together when they are 18. If you put your children the grade behind just remember that simple things like going for a drink at 18 he will not be able to do until his friends turn 18 (the drinking laws are 100 times stricter than in England, not 18, then you can not get into a bar)

An earlier thread complained that the youth in Canada are not as mature. You know what I agree. Kids in Canada are kids!! A friend had a daughter who came over at 14. First few weeks at school, wore all the really trendy, designer clothes. By October, realised that her friends just worn jeans and tee shirt every day. Of course the youth do eventually mature but in their own time, they are allowed to develop and not be old and mature before they reach 12 years of age.[/QUOTE]
Thanks Helen, that's one of the main reasons we are immigrating to Alberta!!

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Thanks Helen, that's one of the main reasons we are immigrating to Alberta!![/QUOTE]

As you are well aware, Alberta is dripping of oil money. In many cases they have social programs in the schools that other provinces could only dream of.

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Are you sure about this ? I thought the Alberta government was philosophically opposed to using oil revenues for social programs. Certainly Judy's posts suggest that the school system is less well funded now than in decades past. Do you have something specific in mind ?

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Yes. Such programs as band, music, art and drama have been cut in many provinces (particularly at the primary school level) however they have been enhanced in Alberta. I am a music teacher - many of my friends are teaching in Alberta, as did I when I graduated - as the province I am from, Saskatchewan, was barely holding onto what they had. The same goes for sepecial educational needs and physical education.

I am not suggesting that oil money goes directly towards schools. However, it does provide alot of employment and hence income, property and sales tax is generated. It also attracts young working people to the province. Alberta's schools are better off than those in Saskatchewan and British Columbia.

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Ah. I confess to being Toronto-centric to the extent of only being able to compare to schools here.

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Hi there,

I am also a Canadian (BC) teaching in a school in Tunbridge Wells and I agree with all of your comments.

I (and every foreign teacher in my school) am completely shocked by the level of literacy and behaviour in the school that I teach. I also know that my school is not unusual based my conversations with other teachers. I believe that quality of education in the UK varies considerably and those that have money can afford a decent education. Given this, when looking at International results I believe that they need to examine the bottom 25%. This would tell all.

I also believe that the obsession with testing and ranking schools is one of the greatest problems in the UK education system. My subject area does quite well in the GCSE exams. However what a waste of time that exam is. I spend at least 6 to 7 months in Year 11 teaching students how to write an exam; not a useful skill in my opinion. These student could be learning much more useful and practical information then practicing the same question over and over again. They could be learning how to read.

Just my thoughts

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I think you are spot on. I have two year 11 GCSE Music classes and that is exactly what I have to do as well. My subject too has good results, however s**t would hit the fan if I, heaven forbid, focused on an area of Music which isn't in the curriculum (for interest sake, the curriculum is direly dull) and their exam marks slipped. Our headteacher has a binder that has all of our teaching staff members graphed in terms of their "outcomes". I went through the threshold with no problems however my colleague was asked to explain two "dots" on his graph that didn't "achieve the targeted GCSE based upon Year 6 SAT results". !!! Crazy or what. So, I plug along and stick to the test. What a ridiculous system.

The kids I teach are desperate to learn about jazz and r&b. It's not on the test. So after school we meet up and I teach them about it. Can't afford lesson time for such frivilousness!

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Now I'm worried again. Last time I went back (2001?) my kids were academically so behind their UK counterparts I was very concerned as to how they would compare in the job market for the future. Having done a Canadian degree and a UK one, the standard for the degree in Canada was, in my opinion, much much lower. However, I can only compare my own schooling...maybe there has been huge deterioration in UK standards since I left school in the eighties?

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Like I have mentioned before - let the facts speak for themselves. Check out the World Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) at www.oecd.org. (They are the foremost respected watchdog in terms of a global perspective in terms of health and education.) Once at this site, look under education and statistics. You will clearly see that the UK is miles behind Canada and most the other countries as well! Canada is the top five, along with the Scandanavian countries (Finland leads the way) and New Zealand.

Obviously your experiences suggest a different story however I think the norm is otherwise!

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I cannot speak directly for education in schools, but I would certainly say that my colleagues in the tertiary sector are at their wits end over kids who are unable to perform relatively simple tasks. As an example, one colleague had a student on a 3RD YEAR general relativity course came to ask what "all this calculus is" as they had never come across it before :eek: And worse, they just hadn't even bothered to try to look it up. I suspect that most children educated in the eighties and reading a science subject at university, would at least have come across basic differentiation and integration before their final undergraduate year. It would seem (and I would stress that I am not a schoolteacher) that modular courses and "teaching to the test" is doing a grave injustice to youngsters currently in the education system.


jlw: I did wonder whether the authorities doing you education equivalency might just have assumed you were 16 in grade 10 and that year 11 kids here are also 16 so it is all equivalent? On the other hand, maybe they are more thorough than most other British institutions and really are education experts.

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I think that the sheer number of GCSEs that students take nowadays is why they are struggling in some basic areas. Most students are sitting 12 or 13 GCSE subjects. That is alot! The skills being taught in schools today are much different to those in the 80's, and the core subjects are arguably being sacrificed.

Regarding the UK/Canada equivalents: I asked about this when my paperwork was being checked. The response I was told was that it had nothing to do with age but was based on a curriculum comparison in maths, english and science. (By the way, I wasn't 16 until grade 11. Any student born from July - December is only 15 in grade 10 in many of the provinces.)

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Hi there,

I must say that I am surprised by your comments. I am constantly feeling lucky that I was educated in Canada. Although I think the British system was probably good in the 80s (if you were a decent student) it is in pretty bad shape at the moment. If you don't believe the OPEC results take a look at the number of teaching positions available. The pay is not that bad in comparison to many jobs; it the conditions.

Both my husband and I possess a business degree from respected universities; mine in Canada and his in the UK. I believe that our education is comparable. My was longer and broader, while his was more streamed and more stressful. We both went to high school in the late 80s and early 90s.

I would not ever say that the British system was better than the Canadian. It is difficult to make comparisons as students start their education in the UK younger. Furthermore, the UK focuses on different skills. Thus a student studing A levels will only take 3 courses whereas a Canadian will often take 8. Thus you cannot compare a UK A level math to a Canadian Grade 12 math. You must look at the entire picture. Additionally, Canadian schooling is not as streamed as the UK. This makes a big different. Finally, the focus of the two is quite different. Canadian education focuses on many skills; not just academics. I am still completely shocked by the lack of group work being done in UK schools. Being able to work in a group is such an important skill - probably more important than being able to do advanced calculus.

Anyways, having taught in the UK system, but raised in Canada I could never send my children (when I have them) to school in Britain. This is not only because the system in the UK is in a terrible mess and the behaviour shocking but also because it is so class based and does not focus on the qualities that I value. At the same time many people, especially Britons would possibly disagree.

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Hi Julie

I was quite surprised by your comments regarding group work. I trained in Scotland (4 year B.Ed degree as opposed to the 1 year B.Ed degree here in Ontario - still don't know how anyone can call a one year course a degree??). Anyway, I found that there was a huge amount of differentiation and group work taking place in the UK. From my limited experience so far in Ontario, I have found that teachers do not differentiate work very often - in my children's classes, the teachers virtually always use whole class teaching and tend to teach to the middle. I have questioned whether differentiation is even taught in teacher's college over here?

However, in saying all of that, my children really like their school here and I'm sure that when they graduate from high school they will be just as able to go into a career of their choosing whether they are in Britain or Canada. I'm sure you will agree that while teachers play an important role, it is the parents and the students themselves who determine how successful a student will be.

I think a lot of the confusion that occurs with people moving between the UK and Canada is caused because children in the UK start full time school a year earlier than Canadian children. On the one hand I have been frustrated at my daughter's lack of progress (she is in SK) compared to what she would be doing by now if she were in the UK (she would be in Year 1 in England and Primary 2 in Scotland). However, she is happy and I know she will catch up. In the meantime, I do some extra work with her as I know she is capable of much more than she is getting right now.

I agree with you about the teaching to the test that occurs in the UK though. There does seem to be more pressure for everyone - students, parents and teachers. I certainly didn't like the government's Big Brother dictatorship approach towards the education system while I was there.

It is very hard to compare the two countries properly as there is such a variation in provinces in Canada and countries in the UK. Most people can only compare their personal experiences. Our children have been in good schools in both countries. Both have their advantages and disadvantages but overall our children are happy to go to school and we are happy to send them!!

Chris

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Just to clarify, before taking a one- or two-year B.Ed, you must already have a bachelor's degree. So in essence a B.Ed takes 5 or 6 years in Canada.

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Surely you can directly compare schools where the Bac is offered.

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Most, if not all, B.Ed degrees in Ontario are only 1 year - the equivalent of a PGCE (Post Graduate Certificate of Education) in the UK. In Ontario, once you have completed a 3 or 4 year degree, you can then qualify to do a B.Ed. Incidentally, students are not interviewed for a place in teacher's college here at Western - it is purely based on grades. Once you have completed your B.Ed. you have two degrees - so essentially you are completing one of your degrees in one year. Very deceptive in my opinion.

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I don't know about that. Here in Calgary there are just a couple of schools in each of the two government-funded systems (public and Catholic) that offer the IB program. Those schools also offer standard schooling in parallel with the IB. They don't let just anyone into their IB programs. Kids have to have attained a certain level of performance to be allowed into the IB program at all. I imagine those schools' IB students perform to a level that looks acceptable when they're compared with IB students in other cities, provinces and countries. But I don't think that's a very revealing statistic, one way or the other, if you're trying to compare whole school systems with each other.

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Now I am not attacking our Royal family. But Prince Harry had the best possible education, private from 5 years to 18. Eton and all the rest. He left school after 13 years of the finest education England has to offer with two A levels (I don't remember the grades but I remember fairly low) one in Art and the other Geography!!


Not to worry his fellow army officers had to have a degree to go on the officers course, but HRH Harry will be able to paint the landscape when the rest are giving orders. Wasn't there an episode from a Blackadder series where Blackadder was the official artist for the army!!

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Helen,
First of all arent you making the mistake that expense=quality? 50% of the 'value' of an Eton quality is the name of the school you went to.

Secondly it is highly unlikely that Harry (and now Wills) are in a 'class' full of potential officers who all hold degrees. Sandhurst is a military academy, as such it trains Army Officers it does not provide Post Graduate education.

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I thought I read that most of the men with Harry and Wills are over 21 and most hold a degree and that they are all expected to be officer material. Hence they get called "Sir" all the time by the instructors. Of course there will be a drop out rate in each class. I did not think they have started as basic squaddie level, but if they have then I bow to your greater knowledge of Sandhurst.