Is the dream real?
 

Hi all, wondered what thoughts were on the following:

We've had an initial assessment done and now our security clearances, medicals, etc have to be completed. Now that the move is becoming more of a reality, it's time for us to really knuckle down and ensure that this will be the right thing to do - it's going to be the biggest gamble of our lives. As we've waited so long, we got on with our lives and I've just been accepted on a Midwifery degree course - then we received a letter confirming that our immigration was moving along.

So, my question is (to anyone in the know) 'is the dream real?'. Like many, we hope this move to Canada will offer a better quality of life, more opportunities for us and our daughter, friendly people, gorgeous landscapes, etc, but generally a happier life. Obviously, everyone has their own idea on what will make them happy, but I wondered if the general consensus is that it was all worth it. Worth leaving family, friends and career aspirations here?

A big question, I know, but as there are no guarantees in life, I guess I just need some feedback from those who have done it, to help us along! I have no rose-tinted glasses and want this experience to be totally real - good and bad, so that there are few surprises.

Thanks all - hope someone can offer a reality check (positive and negative comments welcome!)

Re: Is the dream real?
 

Personally to think of this as a dream come true would push the point. The goal for us was to achieve Permanent Residency and then Citizenship. We had no expectation that life would change dramatically as we sort of knew what we were heading towards. And that was a deliberate decision.

The 'dream' is a difficult thing to culminate as this will only come through hard work and complete acceptance of your surroundings plus the eventual knowledge that all involved have benefitted in some way or other. It might just be the more open mindedness of the personality, the slightly better chance of having a more fullfilling life. No one knows. It is a journey and you will know only at the end if it was worth it.

But along the way embrace whatever you do and wherever you are.

It is all unique and you might only get one chance at life unless you are a reincarnater at heart and then who gives a shit about this life?

But everyone knows I have BIG issues with the inept current and forseable government in the UK. There are ways of establishing a balanced society long-term and New Labour are not following any of them.

Re: Is the dream real?
 

If you want a balance of views, I suggest you read this forum as well as the Moving back to the UK one.

Re: Is the dream real?
 

For us our dream is only in stage one, we have had our ups and downs, anxieties over health problems with family left behind as well as with us now we are here (10 months here now), Have we or haven't we done the right thing? We are happy here and really happy we took the leap, do we want to go back to England? NO!

Re: Is the dream real?
 

Hello,

This is only my point of view, 'is the dream real'. I was born in the UK, immigrated to Ontario, Canada, with my parents, when I was 3. Now grown and having a family of my own, my choices seem different and I want my children to know their extended family and cousins in the UK, something I missed out on...and is truly important in a childs' life.

I would have to say it isn't worth moving away from family/good jobs and your heritage. Is it really that bad in the UK?

Canada, has been a stepping stone, but I do yearn to be back, since the decision was never mine to emmigrate :( . Others, think we're crazy to want this. Have been back-UK many times, and really miss it when I'm gone.

These are just my thoughts, from a immigrant child, that I wanted to share with you, seeing you have a daughter. As I have said before, extended family, heritage and all that goes with being in the UK is important. So you may have surprises down the road, as your child may feel the same way. no one really knows what will happen later on! So Surprises! there will be loads...I haven't found the people here any friendlier than the UK, the landscapes, nothing like the british countrysides, it is very vast here. The grass is just starting to turn GREEN, from GREY and we're in April! WE have high taxes etc. who wants a big house if there is no one to share it with. Christmas's and Easters have been just us....no cousins etc. Grandparents.

Wow! It is so hard to really think of our feelings....at least it is only a 7 hour flight.

Hope I haven't dampened your spirits. Good luck in your search.
Where in Canada are you deciding on? We are from a small town, 1 hour from Toronto.

regards,
Deana

Re: Is the dream real?
 

Good idea.

I have just put a thread on the Moving back to the UK forum for this very reason, to hear the other side of the coin, so to speak.

Re: Is the dream real?
 

Thank you to everyone replying - you all have really great advice. I look forward to hearing more and I will take a look at the threads suggested.

We have no problem leaving this country, as far as standard of living and government is concerned - we'd get out of here in a heartbeat. When we applied for immigration, our life was very different to now and we were miserable. Moving to Canada had always been a dream of ours, so we acted upon it. Now we seem to have rebuilt our lives here again, doubting that we would be successful for Canada.

I suppose I am just considering the part regarding leaving family, depriving our daughter of the extended family she loves so much and worrying that we may make a huge mistake. However, there's nothing stopping us from coming back and rebuilding our life, seeing the whole thing as an adventure along the way.

Thanks again all.

Re: Is the dream real?
 

My materialistic dream was to be a Stay at home mum with a nice big house. Well, neither of those happened! BUT quality of life, oh yes :)

Little example, I was just chatting to my daycare provider that I want to buy a tent - and we were discussing all the "camping for softies" places within one hour's drive (eg the provincial parks with showers, washrooms with soft loo paper, lakes or beaches with diving docks etc) and it occurred to me that none of this would be available in Britain (swimming in a British lake :scared: I don't think so!!), and here I am taking it all for granted :)

Anyway, must dash, sounds like eldest is back from his morning skiing - next off to Science World .... :)

Clare
:)

Re: Is the dream real?
 

Deana

Thank you for your reply, it certainly gives me food for thought regarding how our daughter may feel in the future as she is very close to our extended family, but we also want her to have the best quality of life possible and more opportunities. It's a tough decision.

I'll take your comments on board. Regarding your question, we are considering either British Columbia or Alberta. However, we have said that, if we are successful, we will have a research trip to Canada and travel across to see where we like. We did look at Hamilton, near Toronto, but my husband likes the idea of living near to the Rockies for the outdoor life he would like (snowboarding, etc).

Thanks again and good luck to you - I hope you find the happiness you seek.

Re: Is the dream real?
 

There is snowboarding in Ontario too! Skiing, hiking, Maple syrup in the spring!What else can we do we ALL the snow we get... :p

Another bonus with Toronto, we are close to Niagara Falls, and the US Border...if so desired to cross it!

Good Luck,...with everything :) My thoughts are with you, as I am in the same dilemma to move back, as our children are young.

(Vancouver is alot warmer, it you tend to enjoy more warmth).

regards,
Dee









Thank you for your reply, it certainly gives me food for thought regarding how our daughter may feel in the future as she is very close to our extended family

Re: Is the dream real?
 

you have come so far you really need to take the chance. before i withdrew my application the move was always to make my kids life better and for them to have better prospects. i always thought it was all a bit late for me (37) and would perhaps not be beneficial.
i do not feel the urge to kyak and snowboard for the first time in my life as i have no illusions that iam physically capable of these things, so the outdoor life was not a pull factor for me.
i was purely thinking of the boys.
i think people have said that canada has many pull factors but i perhaps felt that the UK never gave me any push factors so that i would leave happily.
i may go to canada on a permit for a year and then try the USA as i am a nurse and social worker,but i will always admire those that make that permanant move as it is still a fab country and i have been going since 1989.

Re: Is the dream real?
 

I would suggest the use of the word dream is inappropriate it's more like vision because you have to work at it. Becoming happily settled in Canada doesn't come automatically you have to work at it.

This means taking risks, being flexible, adaptable and creative. The other thing is to become Canadian by adopting Canadian ways and letting go of English ones.

Otherwise you'll still be missing things and will have not replaced them with the Canadian equivalents.

Of course family can not be replaced but you can make new friends. If you're really going to get hung up because you can't get the same products in Canada you can decide that before even making the move. In fact it's a good indicator because if trivia like that will cause you grief then Canada is not for you.

Re: Is the dream real?
 

I am able too tell you this -

If you want 20+ days annual leave per year - it`s 10 to begin with if ya lucky.

If you choose to live outside of a great big city like Greater Toronto, then be prepared to drive (x3) distances when you go to do anything, although outside of the big cities - there IS NO traffic at all.

Summers are HOT with MOSQUITOS and Winters are FREEZING and you have to plan in time, each morning allowing for departure into said weather conditions.

You might find Canadians to be TO SLOW for you in many different ways.

Canada is not the UK in anyway whatsoever.

My wife and I love it here - why - I`ll tell you :

Canadians are more British then the British! (UK is European now).

If you live away from the cities, you will be welcomed by the community, the colleagues of your new workplace etc. with great enthusiasm and care.

Your first Xmas - you will be invited too many different homes for suppers.

You will discover that Canadians are FRIENDLY and HONOURABLE!

Canada has all the technology of the 21st century - but in many ways - it still has the innocence that was Britain in the early and mid 1960`s.

In the small towns and communities they all went too High School together and so they will tell you - "O, yes I know so and so". - Even if they live 30 miles away. To a Brit it seems weird - but for example - when one considers that the whole of New Brunswick has only around 754,000 persons - there is not a demand for many High Schools - so consequently - there are great areas whereby - everyone knows of everyone!

Canadians are on the whole - disinterested in materialistic ideals - this will show in their housing for example - their homes are of course clean and tidy - but having the latest whatever is not their priority.
Old fashioned ideals and community spirit are their priorities.

Be prepared to leave a message on an answer-machine - AND NEVER GET A REPLY. If you think the Spanish or Greeks had that sewn up - well welcome to Spain / Greece with snow.

Canadians have a way of always dropping in unannounced - if you don`t like that - then you are in for a hard time.
We love that - and take it as a compliment to.

My wife and I had become very, very unhappy in the UK - with the way it was going - within Europe for example.
So for us - we are - and will always be - happy here.

We plan to apply for Citizenship as early as our PR status allows.

Re: Is the dream real?
 

And to give the flip side of that, my parents both immigrated to Canada separately in their 20s, met and married here (so the situation is slightly different, as I wasn't born in the UK). We also grew up across the ocean from both sets of family and that was just how it was. Obviously we missed out on being involved closely in extended family but we certainly would never feel that it wasn't worth it or my parents should have moved back. I think it depends more on whether close interaction with grandparents is one of your priorities for your children.

Re: Is the dream real?
 

If you do come here and then decide you want to leave, go home within the first couple of years, especially if you have kids. The longer you leave it, the harder it gets to go back, even if you hate the country you are in. Rebuilding lives is expensive and in some cases you never quite recover from the setback. :(

Re: Is the dream real?
 

I'm fortunate that I can take my job most anywhere but leaving my family and heritage was one of the best decisions I've ever made in my life.

reddeb32, from my own experience and reading various bits and pieces here, in blogs and the forum Judy mentioned, I think whether it's worth migrating away from family greatly depends on the relationship you have with your family - and what can be more unique and individual as that!?

From what I've read though, I think a lot of people benefit from time away from their family. Many people learn how much their family means to them and how much they want them in their daily lives - or closer than living a million miles away. Sometimes people have to learn that through being away. For me and some others, the separation is good for other reasons. From thousands of miles away, I can clearly see the screwy dynamics that go on in my family and I cringe at the thought of what I might be like today had I continued to marinate in that environment.

Just a general notion that I have; on balance I think being away, even temporarily, seems like a positive experience, either way, in terms of family.

Re: Is the dream real?
 

So far, we love our life here.

For my eldest particularly, he is a changed person. He has come out of his shell, he has direction and purpose. He is achieving at school (Current average mark of 97.4% in Chem 30!) He's been asked to be a peer tutor and has just come back from a successful job interview at Callaway Park (where he was offered a choice of 4 different jobs!). This is a lad who quite frankly was failing in the UK! He loves to ski, and really appreciates the beauty of the mountains.

My 14 year old misses his UK friends, and sometimes looks very sad, but even he says he is not sorry we moved here, and is not expressing any wish to return. He loves the mountains, and snowboarding, and is beginning to lose those rolls of lard resulting a hours of sitting stationary at his pc.

For me, work is quite stressful, but in kind of a good way .... I think it's mostly that I have so much info to get my head around! Hubby is finding things are getting easier as he starts to become known in his business.

What do we miss? Maybe greenness and old architecture ... a bit. Parents? yes. And have ongoing concerns about MIL who really has not taken our move well. But a few years back we were all SOOO depressed and unhappy with life, the difference is unbelievable! We feel it's the best move of our lives (so far!) :D

I wish MIL would agree to come out and see the lives we are making here, and the difference in the kids ..... but she won't. She says she has "said her goodbyes, and couldn't bear to break her heart all over again if she sees us again!" Good Grief! :rolleyes:

Re: Is the dream real?
 

Well not to rain on your parade but I would offer the following personal insights for you to consider Deana. I was born in the UK and left at age 7. Basically the same scenario as yourself. I too always enjoyed visits back to see the extended family and often thought I could enjoy living there (other than the weather of course).

Then I ended up living there. Well it was not exactly a disaster but I certainly now have a very different viewpoint of the UK having lived there for 6.5 years. In my opinion it is a second world country. The basic infrastructure ie. transportation, healthcare, education is poor. The standard of living for many is very low and only possible through subsidized council housing. The culture has degraded from honesty, hard work and family values, to one of welfare dependency and public drunkenness. Too many people living on too small an island like rats in a cage.

No doubt many here will want to defend their homeland and take exception to that paragraph, but remember, it is MY perception. You don't have to agree with it but you cannot change it. So don't waste your time.

I thought I was Scottish Deana until I lived there and discovered I was Canadian. I suspect that having lived in Canada from age 3, your perception right now of the UK is based not on fact but on an idealized vision of it as mine was.

Moving to Canada will not be an easy thing to do for most emmigrants but in the long run I think there is little doubt that they have a better chance of a good life for themselves and even more so for their children. Taking your kids to live in the UK and exposing them to the youth culture there would be a huge mistake in my opinion.

Re: Is the dream real?
 

Just a thought Karen but maybe the push factors seem to be missing simply because you are unable to see them. What I mean is that when someone grows up within a country, they accept as normal whatever exists. You cannot see something as being a push factor if it has always been that way and you know no differently.

Here is an example. In the UK you see ads in the newspaper by the Post Office advertising entry positions for 16 year olds. Leaving school at 16 is pretty common. When I as a Canadian living in the UK first saw that, I was shocked. How can a government agency like the Post Office be encouraging kids to leave school at 16? When I was growing up in Canada and was 16 (1962), leaving school at that age meant you were a 'dropout' and there was a definite stigma attached to that. I believe it is even moreso today.

For a government agency to advertise jobs for these dropouts would no doubt result in a public outcry by parents saying, 'don't you dare give my kids an excuse to quit school'. Compare that with the typical reaction of parents in the UK to kids leaving school at 16.

So push factors of which I would consider this one, are not always visible if you can't see things that have always been that way.

Re: Is the dream real?
 

How sad...poor woman..that made me feel like crying...does she have any grandchildren back home?

Re: Is the dream real?
 

You might also add that distance is no longer the factor that it used to be. The UK is under 10 hours away depending on where in Canada you live. With things like Skype and e-mail, you can be as in touch as you want with no financial hardship attached.

My wife and I lived 40 miles from most of her family. We saw them perhaps twice a year on average for the 6+ years we lived there. It might has well have been 10,000 miles. No difference.

Re: Is the dream real?
 

athome,
i many ways i agree with you and my gran is from cuba, lived in jamaica then has been here since the fifties. my mum came from jamaica in 1961. the uk had no pull factors for them, but jamaica certainly gave them push ones!!
but they were young enopugh to make mistakes, get jobs and build themselves up over many years. i do not have that sort of time!
for me i no longer have to worry about healthcare eligibility, professional exams for both nursing and social work, no worries about having a weak currency but never being able to afford to fly and spend when i come back to the u.k, no GST/PST issues,having no canadian experience,and asking constantly on this forum whether a 10 dollar a hour job will be enough to live in canada.
but for the boys i am sad about it all and i think it would be a great opportunity for them but not for me.

Re: Is the dream real?
 

Moving to Canada will not be an easy thing to do for most emmigrants but in the long run I think there is little doubt that they have a better chance of a good life for themselves and even more so for their children. Taking your kids to live in the UK and exposing them to the youth culture there would be a huge mistake in my opinion.[/QUOTE]



So, where do you live now?

Re: Is the dream real?
 

Which part of the UK are you specifcally describing with your comments? Tarring it all with the same brush I suspect. You don't mention where you're living now. No country is perfect and I'm offended at your slagging off of the UK. I no longer live in London (moved away a decade ago) but have just spent a weekend there and had no trouble with the public transport system. We didn't have to wait for longer than a couple of minutes for a tube and got around the city with ease.

I didn't like your post and find you a rather patronising person but then to quote you "No doubt many here will want to defend their homeland and take exception to that paragraph, but remember, it is MY perception. You don't have to agree with it but you cannot change it. So don't waste your time." I'm so glad you left the UK 'cos we can do without ignorant persons such as you!

Re: Is the dream real?
 

I used to swim in the ponds on hampstead heath, but its the only place i can think of where you could swim in a lake/pond

Re: Is the dream real?
 

I used to swim in my neighbour's pond as a kid, does that count? ;) It was in Portsmouth.

Re: Is the dream real?
 

that makes two, and my brother used to swim in some gravel pits so maybe 3!

Re: Is the dream real?
 

It IS sad, and I don't want to seem unsympathetic, I know it is a terrible blow for her. No, hubby is her only child, and his dad died a few short years ago, so she really is bereft! I hate to see her unhappy, and we knew what a blow this would be to her when we made the decision..... believe me, it was not made lightly and there have been many tears all round!

But, though she is in her early 80's she is fit and well, and hubby is 56, and I am 46, so we could not have lingered until she didn't need us any more, and ever made the move. For the boys sake, (and ours), it was then or not at all ...... We had to weigh things up, and put the family's need over hers. At times I hate myself for it. I wish she would come see us ..... she could stay as long as she wanted, ......she could probably even move here to be with us, like all the chinese families seem to do!

She's not afraid of flying. I do feel she has made this even worse than it needs to be, by effectively cutting us out of her life. Hubby calls her about once a week, and she seems happy enough just to chat, so long as we steer around anything emotionally upsetting. My own parents, same age, are coming to visit in September, and really looking forward to it!

It does tear me up.

Re: Is the dream real?
 

Dream? I'd hardly call it a dream. But I guess it depends on what you mean by dream. Life for me in Canada is almost identical to my life in the UK. I loved living in the UK and I love living in Canada. There are some differences but no more so than if you were to move to a different area of the UK.

The weather and the bugs are probably the biggest difference. The summers are possibly too hot (I can't believe I said that as I am a sunworshipper!!), the bugs are incessant but you do get used to them surprisingly. The winters are absolutely glorious!! I love the winters - dress correctly and you will love it too.......to wake up to blue skies and beautiful sunshine almost EVERY single morning in winter is just fabulous!!! Spring is a lovely season because it comes and goes sooooo quickly - changes appear literally before your eyes. Autumn/Fall is spectacular. I love the 4 seasons here.

We have always lived in small communities in the UK and have always been welcomed; as we have been welcomed here in Canada.

We used to have friends call in to see us unannounced in the UK if they were passing; the same happens here in Canada.

Money is harder to come by over here - or maybe not, thinking about it we had 2 very healthy incomes in the UK and only one now - still surviving and as our business is really summer orientated it should pull in far more income through the summer months than it did in the winter months, although the winter months weren't too bad surprisingly.

Our 9 year old daughter does miss her brothers and her Grandparents, however they have all been out to stay with us here in Ontario and everyone who has come out here has completely and utterly understood why we have done what we have done and love the area and our property as much as we do. My daughter has settled into school well, although the education system here is seriously substandard to the level she was being taught at in England. Having said that, she does enjoy school here - I think the laid back approach and the easiness of it all suits her, LOL!! She has as many friends here as she had in England and after a year and a half of living here, she has just recently been saying that she thinks she likes Canada better although she does still have wonderful memories of England.

Our life is not settled yet though as I live here with my daughter and my husband still lives in the UK. This has worked well but we both look forward to him being out here permanently hopefully by the end of this year. My husband dislikes returning to the UK, not because he dislikes the UK, but because he feels his home is here now. I can understand that, as I would hate to do this commute too.

We have many very good friends here - actually terrific friends; but again no better or worse than the wonderful friends we still have in England.

I honestly do think that if you try to look at emigrating as just moving, then it really isn't such a big deal - if you look at it as a "dream" you may end up in a nightmare! Don't put Canada on a pedestal - just accept her for what she is = just somewhere else to live.

Re: Is the dream real?
 

Tiaribbon, I think this is the most brilliant piece of advice I've seen in a long time. Maybe an unseen hand led me to this forum just so I could read this.

Re: Is the dream real?
 

Tia

I have lived here for 43 years. Met and married my wonderful wife here. Have two great sons. Had a super career, and I'm enjoying a great retiremement, well except for a couple of health issues I could do without. :)

However in all my years here no-one has put into words how I feel about Canada until you just did. Canada has been great to me but may not be for others and at the end of the day it is just somewhere else to live.

Thank you.
Steve

Re: Is the dream real?
 

This is a wonderful balanced view... nice. My comment would be that happiness is not a factor of where you live but of the opportunities that exist around you and your motivation to take advantage of them - whichever country you live in. The grass is rarely "greener" on the other side. If want change why not try a move WITHIN the UK first rather than go through the financial and emotional roller coaster of emigration. My experience is that ultimately, you would probably settle into a similar patten of lifestyle in Canada as you have in the UK, with a few differences dictated by your surroundings.

Good luck with your decision.

Re: Is the dream real?
 

maybe the thing is not to think of it as a dream, that puts too much pressure on it. ifyou were to relocate in the UK, new job, new region etc, you wouldnt call it a dream, so is it really so different?

Re: Is the dream real?
 

Great summary. The only thing I can add is to have the right attitude,

Stay positive and flexible. If you're going to be super critical with a rigid/negative outlook, then you're going to have a hard time. But that would apply even if you moved within the UK.

Re: Is the dream real?
 

I'm so glad that I started this thread - everyone has had such great advice. It has made me realise that the real question I was asking was 'Will our expectations be fulfilled?', but as many have you have rightly said, your life is what you make it wherever you live. If we make the move, some of our expectations may be fulfilled, but we definitely will be flexible and open-minded about the move. We need to take it for what it is and put all of the effort in ourselves to make the life we want (as we would here). In short, there are no guarantees and we want to be realistic about the whole thing, as viewing it as a 'dream' can only end in disappointment.

As a country, however, Canada definitley seems to offer a structure that would suit us - we would love the community feel and the friendships offered, not to mention the lovely surroundings in many places. Much of what has been mentioned within this thread appeals to us.

I admire anyone who loves England, but for us we have never felt that this will be our permanent home - maybe we just live in the wrong area. However, we are not comfortable with how the country is being run and the yob culture that seems to be rife today (as we have personally experienced, unfortunately), among other things.

Thanks again to everyone - we do have a positive, flexible outlook and hope that this, along with any research, will help us to build a life in Canada. :)

Re: Is the dream real?
 

The reality is Canada is no better or worse than the UK, it all depends on the individual town, or part of the city you live.. good and bad exist here too and in a similar ratio

Guess what if you think the UK is run badly, the politicians over here are no better… think about it millions in natural resources plus a low population and we’re still close to the bottom of the G8 nations, Politicians and governments by their nature and due to the people they employee tend to be at least a little corrupt and a lot incompetent..
Oh whilst I’m at it swap “Yob” culture for US style gang culture..

Don’t get me wrong Canada is not a bad place, but it not a great place either ….
It’s just like any other G8 nation, a mix of good and bad that on average is good more often than bad… that is if you have enough money

Canada is not the place to be poor…

Re: Is the dream real?
 

Boy you sure got that right, and the current Ralph's world, my home province of Alberta is without doubt the worst place in Canada to be poor. :mad::mad::mad:

Re: Is the dream real?
 

I wonder just how many hours are expected out of 30 million people in order to create turnover. Perhaps the 24 hour working day to improve poductivity just to get out of the lower end of the G8. LIke I said to the Times economist who had to take the head out of the arse. Italy has a higher GDP therefore on the surface higher in the G8 terms. But the fact that its National Debt is higher than its GDP got lost on him. And there is no hope of it getting better long term. Perhaps the 60 million in Italy should get a move on...?

No where is nice to be poor.

But at least in the UK as a national one can sit on ones arse if need be.

Re: Is the dream real?
 

Well said, but we're running outta room here LOL :D It'll soon be like playing musical chairs!

Re: Is the dream real?
 

We moved from the UK last year for many of the reasons stated by Athome, we lived in Bedfordshire and were unhappy with the way kids behaved, the levels of education and childcare facilities, the bus service was pathetic (I worked 20 mins from our town, it would have taken 2 hrs to get to work if I had to take a bus!), we were in the commuter belt for London so trains to London were fairly frequent, but crowded and dirty. We wouldn't walk 'down the town' after dark (9pmish) because of all the drunks spitting and swearing and generally being a nuisance, cars would race up and down our street at all hours with music blaring (we didn't live on a main road by any means). We now live in a city five times the size of the small market town we moved from, it's clean, the kids are polite, you don't see drunken yobs every where (and there are some in downtown). My daughter sometimes misses her friends but ask her if she wants to go back and the answer is always NO WAY!