Does Canada have the same 'grammar school desperation'?
Oct 24th 2008 | 6:27 am
#46
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 319
From: Calgary
Re: Does Canada have the same 'grammar school desperation'?
I doubt you would find ANY city that didn't have a variety of neighbourhoods of those types - they exist in pretty much every city I have ever been to
Oct 24th 2008 | 6:28 am
#47
Born again atheist
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,259
From: Europe (to be specified).
Re: Does Canada have the same 'grammar school desperation'?
As a chemist, I can testify that a lump of lithium in the gob would self combust. No need to set fire to it. That's the beauty of the thing.
Oct 24th 2008 | 6:28 am
#48
Account Closed
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 7,284
Re: Does Canada have the same 'grammar school desperation'?
The use of terms like "middle class" and "upper middle class" was purely the invention of the author (me).
Canada does not have a deeply entrenched class system. For example, one can't tell a person's class from his/her accent.
There also is a fair amount of class mobility in Canada. Yes, a child who grows up in a family in which the parents do not read is at a disadvantage. That child may be less inclined to get a post-secondary education. Conversely, a child whose parents care about education will be more inclined to go to university. But, if a kid really wants to do so, he/she can get a higher education.
There also are people who have street smarts and who have made a lot of money, in some cases without university degrees.
My use of class terminology in the Wiki was an attempt to create a sort of shorthand to describe the situation to people who were still in the UK and who wanted to know things about Calgary.
What I mean by a poor neighbourhood is one in which there are cars raised on blocks, broken screen doors, houses in need of paint, lawns in need of mowing, that sort of thing.
What I mean by a middle class neighbourhood is one in which the lawns are mowed, there are children playing in the playgrounds, there are people out walking their dogs, and houses generally are well maintained.
Wealthy neighbourhoods are ones in which the houses cost a fortune, every other car is a luxury car, and so on.
Calgary has all of those kinds of neighbourhoods. I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that people going to Calgary from the UK don't want to live in neighbourhoods that have the characteristics I've described in "poor" neighbourhoods. I assume they want the characteristics that exist in what I've described as middle class neighbourhoods. They may think they want the characteristics of wealthy neighbourhoods (proximity to the downtown core and/or massive houses). But I would warn them that those neighbourhoods do present some challenges when it comes to raising balanced kids.
And, yes, Calgary does have all the kinds of neighbourhoods I've described. And, yes, if you wouldn't like a city that had all those kinds of neighbourhoods, I dare say it's a good thing you didn't go to Calgary.
x
Canada does not have a deeply entrenched class system. For example, one can't tell a person's class from his/her accent.
There also is a fair amount of class mobility in Canada. Yes, a child who grows up in a family in which the parents do not read is at a disadvantage. That child may be less inclined to get a post-secondary education. Conversely, a child whose parents care about education will be more inclined to go to university. But, if a kid really wants to do so, he/she can get a higher education.
There also are people who have street smarts and who have made a lot of money, in some cases without university degrees.
My use of class terminology in the Wiki was an attempt to create a sort of shorthand to describe the situation to people who were still in the UK and who wanted to know things about Calgary.
What I mean by a poor neighbourhood is one in which there are cars raised on blocks, broken screen doors, houses in need of paint, lawns in need of mowing, that sort of thing.
What I mean by a middle class neighbourhood is one in which the lawns are mowed, there are children playing in the playgrounds, there are people out walking their dogs, and houses generally are well maintained.
Wealthy neighbourhoods are ones in which the houses cost a fortune, every other car is a luxury car, and so on.
Calgary has all of those kinds of neighbourhoods. I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that people going to Calgary from the UK don't want to live in neighbourhoods that have the characteristics I've described in "poor" neighbourhoods. I assume they want the characteristics that exist in what I've described as middle class neighbourhoods. They may think they want the characteristics of wealthy neighbourhoods (proximity to the downtown core and/or massive houses). But I would warn them that those neighbourhoods do present some challenges when it comes to raising balanced kids.
And, yes, Calgary does have all the kinds of neighbourhoods I've described. And, yes, if you wouldn't like a city that had all those kinds of neighbourhoods, I dare say it's a good thing you didn't go to Calgary.
x
I have no problem with diversity and would be happy to have rich neighbours.
FWIW I am also common as muck from a mining village in the NE. I passed my 11 plus and went to a direct grant school in the south. So, for the non British reader this means I was a working class girl with a northern accent at a posh school. I pretty much have a sour distate for any class system and seeing it referred to in an article on Canada is, I think, wrong.
Your definitions of those classes do not fit with my experience of class either. To me upper middle is old money, Harrow, Eton, but not aristocracy. Middle class is doctors, lawyers, those jobs that used to be termed the professions. Working class people worked for a living and were ordinary decent folk.
Oct 24th 2008 | 6:30 am
#49
Lotus-eater
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,069
From: Cascadian Autonomous Elysian Region
Oct 24th 2008 | 6:31 am
#50
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 319
From: Calgary
Re: Does Canada have the same 'grammar school desperation'?
I would rather eat my own socks than one from either McDonalds OR A&W (or Burger king/Wendys/other burger chain of your choice)
Oct 24th 2008 | 6:32 am
#51
Born again atheist
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,259
From: Europe (to be specified).
Re: Does Canada have the same 'grammar school desperation'?
It's a rare place that doesnt have those areas. The village I have just moved to does. What I like about Canada is that people don't really care about these things and I have never heard anyone described as middle class here. I found your use of those terms misleading as it made me think that the system was up an running in Calgary, hence my comment.
I have no problem with diversity and would be happy to have rich neighbours.
FWIW I am also common as muck from a mining village in the NE. I passed my 11 plus and went to a direct grant school in the south. So, for the non British reader this means I was a working class girl with a northern accent at a posh school. I pretty much have a sour distate for any class system and seeing it referred to in an article on Canada is, I think, wrong.
Your definitions of those classes do not fit with my experience of class either. To me upper middle is old money, Harrow, Eton, but not aristocracy. Middle class is doctors, lawyers, those jobs that used to be termed the professions. Working class people worked for a living and were ordinary decent folk.
I have no problem with diversity and would be happy to have rich neighbours.
FWIW I am also common as muck from a mining village in the NE. I passed my 11 plus and went to a direct grant school in the south. So, for the non British reader this means I was a working class girl with a northern accent at a posh school. I pretty much have a sour distate for any class system and seeing it referred to in an article on Canada is, I think, wrong.
Your definitions of those classes do not fit with my experience of class either. To me upper middle is old money, Harrow, Eton, but not aristocracy. Middle class is doctors, lawyers, those jobs that used to be termed the professions. Working class people worked for a living and were ordinary decent folk.
Oct 24th 2008 | 6:34 am
#52
Born again atheist
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,259
From: Europe (to be specified).
Oct 24th 2008 | 6:36 am
#53
Assimilated Pauper
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 40,070
From: Ontario
Re: Does Canada have the same 'grammar school desperation'?
<shakes head dazed by the foregoing> Debt of pint noted.
I looked at Westerhope on upmystreet, it was pretty much what I expected and pretty much the sort of place I grew up in:
Family Income Low
Interest in current affairs Low
Housing - with mortgage High
Educated - to degree Very low
Couples with children High
Have satellite TV Medium
I then looked at my corner of the world and got quite the shock:
Family Income High
Interest in current affairs High
Housing - with mortgage High
Educated - to degree High
Couples with children High
Have satellite TV Medium
"These are areas of traditional suburban semi-detached housing that are often home to many Asian families. Almost 40% of the people in this type of postcode are Asian. There are many children and young people in their 20s, and fewer elderly and retired than in the UK as a whole."
So I guess white flight in the UK improves the neighbourhood.
I looked at Westerhope on upmystreet, it was pretty much what I expected and pretty much the sort of place I grew up in:
Family Income Low
Interest in current affairs Low
Housing - with mortgage High
Educated - to degree Very low
Couples with children High
Have satellite TV Medium
I then looked at my corner of the world and got quite the shock:
Family Income High
Interest in current affairs High
Housing - with mortgage High
Educated - to degree High
Couples with children High
Have satellite TV Medium
"These are areas of traditional suburban semi-detached housing that are often home to many Asian families. Almost 40% of the people in this type of postcode are Asian. There are many children and young people in their 20s, and fewer elderly and retired than in the UK as a whole."
So I guess white flight in the UK improves the neighbourhood.
Oct 24th 2008 | 6:46 am
#54
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 9,606
Re: Does Canada have the same 'grammar school desperation'?
Oct 24th 2008 | 6:49 am
#55
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 15,883
Re: Does Canada have the same 'grammar school desperation'?
But I am rather partial to an A&W Pappa Burger every now and then, done right they shouldn't be soggy.
Oct 24th 2008 | 6:55 am
#56
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 9,606
Re: Does Canada have the same 'grammar school desperation'?
Souvette's special this year has been home-made bison burgers. They are low fat. She does, however, have definition problems. They are meant to be made from bison, not made to be the size of a bison.
Oct 24th 2008 | 7:20 am
#57
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 15,883
Re: Does Canada have the same 'grammar school desperation'?
Mmmmmmmm looooove home made bison burgers.
Definitely low fat.
Also bison roasts and steaks.
Oct 24th 2008 | 7:24 am
#58
Now on Vancouver Island
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,935
From: Nanaimo, British Columbia, Canada
Re: Does Canada have the same 'grammar school desperation'?
Your definitions of those classes do not fit with my experience of class either. To me upper middle is old money, Harrow, Eton, but not aristocracy. Middle class is doctors, lawyers, those jobs that used to be termed the professions. Working class people worked for a living and were ordinary decent folk.
In North America, upper middle class is a term that describes people who are well heeled but who nevertheless still work for their money, e.g., doctors, lawyers, etc. That is, they did not inherit their money, but earn it through big salaries or high fees. As you have stated, that is the picture that British people conjure up when they think of someone who is middle class.
Once one goes beyond upper middle class in Canada, the terminology becomes even fuzzier, because Canada doesn't have an aristocracy as such. Once one gets into really wealthy circles, the people in those circles come from a variety of backgrounds. Some members of those circles in Canada did attend private schools, inherited money, and so on. But there also are a lot of self-made millionaires in those circles.
When I wrote the Wiki articles, I knew I was using broad brush strokes and oversimplifying a complex topic. But my use of class terminology in the Wiki articles, as I said before, was a type of shorthand that I used in an attempt to describe the situation on the ground without writing a book.
But now that you've reminded me of the differences in terminology in British English and North American English, and now that I've realized that I used North American terminology, I can see how misleading those articles must be when British people read them.
I'll go back to the articles in which I used class terminology and see if the same information can be provided without the use of that terminology.
x
Oct 24th 2008 | 7:27 am
#59
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 15,883
Re: Does Canada have the same 'grammar school desperation'?
Ah yes, I had forgotten that, to the extent North American English embodies a notion of class, the terminology is different from British English terminology.
In North America, upper middle class is a term that describes people who are well heeled but who nevertheless still work for their money, e.g., doctors, lawyers, etc. That is, they did not inherit their money, but earn it through big salaries or high fees. As you have stated, that is the picture that British people conjure up when they think of someone who is middle class.
Once one goes beyond upper middle class in Canada, the terminology becomes even fuzzier, because Canada doesn't have an aristocracy as such. Once one gets into really wealthy circles, the people in those circles come from a variety of backgrounds. Some members of those circles in Canada did attend private schools, inherited money, and so on. But there also are a lot of self-made millionaires in those circles.
When I wrote the Wiki articles, I knew I was using broad brush strokes and oversimplifying a complex topic. But my use of class terminology in the Wiki articles, as I said before, was a type of shorthand that I used in an attempt to describe the situation on the ground without writing a book.
But now that you've reminded me of the differences in terminology in British English and North American English, and now that I've realized that I used North American terminology, I can see how misleading those articles must be when British people read them.
I'll go back to the articles in which I used class terminology and see if the same information can be provided without the use of that terminology.
x
In North America, upper middle class is a term that describes people who are well heeled but who nevertheless still work for their money, e.g., doctors, lawyers, etc. That is, they did not inherit their money, but earn it through big salaries or high fees. As you have stated, that is the picture that British people conjure up when they think of someone who is middle class.
Once one goes beyond upper middle class in Canada, the terminology becomes even fuzzier, because Canada doesn't have an aristocracy as such. Once one gets into really wealthy circles, the people in those circles come from a variety of backgrounds. Some members of those circles in Canada did attend private schools, inherited money, and so on. But there also are a lot of self-made millionaires in those circles.
When I wrote the Wiki articles, I knew I was using broad brush strokes and oversimplifying a complex topic. But my use of class terminology in the Wiki articles, as I said before, was a type of shorthand that I used in an attempt to describe the situation on the ground without writing a book.
But now that you've reminded me of the differences in terminology in British English and North American English, and now that I've realized that I used North American terminology, I can see how misleading those articles must be when British people read them.
I'll go back to the articles in which I used class terminology and see if the same information can be provided without the use of that terminology.
x
Oct 24th 2008 | 7:41 am
#60
Now on Vancouver Island
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,935
From: Nanaimo, British Columbia, Canada
Re: Does Canada have the same 'grammar school desperation'?
Further to this discussion, I searched the Wiki articles and discovered that the only one in which I had used the term upper middle class was Assessment of Schools-Canada. I know I have used the term in previous posts, but can't do anything to correct that now.
Here is what the Assessment of Schools article used to say:
And in future, Steve, I'll use your suggested terminology.
x
Here is what the Assessment of Schools article used to say:
Another interesting finding was that, while it was advantageous to live in a neighbourhood in which people earned above average incomes, that was true only up to a certain point. Poor neighbourhoods had problems, but extremely wealthy neighbourhoods had some problems too. The best neighbourhoods for which to aim seem to be middle middle class and upper middle class ones.
What it now says is:Another interesting finding was that, while it was advantageous to live in a neighbourhood in which people earned above average incomes, that was true only up to a certain point. Poor neighbourhoods had problems, but extremely wealthy neighbourhoods had some problems too. The best neighbourhoods for which to aim seem to be the broad middle of the socio-economic spectrum.
xAnd in future, Steve, I'll use your suggested terminology.
x
