Disposable employees
 

An interesting situation, which others might draw some parallels between how things are done in Canada and in the UK....

I got a job at the start of the year. I got the sack at the start of yesterday.

Disappointed i might be, but bitter i am not. And so this is not a diatribe against ex-bosses, companies and the like.

However, whilst i realise i am still within the (seemingly global) standard of 3 month's probation where employers can basically do whatever they like, i do feel a slight element of injustice in my dismissal.

Without going into any specifics, my role was a new one to the company. They seemed to want to exploit my 10 years experience from the Euro-zone. As such, they offered me no Job Spec, no Job description, no guidance of any kind. They showed me how they did things and expected me to fit in and start to tweak it.

I worked hard, cleared my in tray every day, arrived early and usually left late. No feedback was offered, although the occasional exclamation of dissatisfaction arose. But surely such were mere teething pains no? Certainly nothing sustained. My efforts to tweak were often denied, so i tried smaller more 'covert' steps in development....:sneaky:

And so the first and second meetings i had with any official quality to them, was my hiring and then my firing. Nowt in between. The Canada Gov doc that came with my severance cheque stated dismissal due to 'unsatisfactory performance'. Considering the above to be true, is this reasonable?

I guess this post is just an effort to gain sympathy from a bunch of online strangers.:o My boss was a wally, but i was determined to be 'professional' and not dwell on such personal animosity. I guess he thought the same about me, but had the authority to not have to tolerate me and my strange accent? :D

Any hoot, live and learn. Anyone hiring?:fingerscrossed:

Re: Disposable employees
 

Argh, that sucks Paulo. Sadly you are not the first, and wont be the last. There really is nothing you can do about it, so I admire your attitude.

Ive been canned after several years of nothing but positive performance reviews, as was a (cradle) colleague, its just the way it works. I know other posters here who were brought in to introduce some European whileyness to an organisation, only for the management to decide they didnt like that sort of change after all, its politics as much as anything.

Dont know about BC, but Ontario employment law has no provision for fair warning of a problem before dismissal, they can basically legally fire you because they want to. Morally thats of course questionable, but it just seems to be the way it is here. Within the probationary period you have even less provision and entitlement to compensation Im afraid.

Fingers crossed you find something else:fingerscrossed:. Are you here on TWP or PR?

Re: Disposable employees
 

Cheers Iain. I am PR and a determined one at that.

I hear what you are saying and i know it to be true. In many ways it is a blessed relief; I was never gonna quit and so they sort of did me a favour!

They weren't all evil..... they gave me 2.5 weeks severance which i think is pretty darn good as i was there for just 10 weeks. But it just smarts a bit, that the boss indulged in his petulance and was allowed to!

But hey, money for nothing is a profit and this 'redundancy' was always a possibility, otherwise why did i not delete all my favourite job hunting website addresses?

the adventure continues....:D

Re: Disposable employees
 

Iain,

Would you know what a persons stance would be if they were past the 3month probation period and were unionised? does that make much of a difference?


Cheers

Paul

Re: Disposable employees
 

I imagine it depends on the unions collective bargaining agreement. Outside of that my basic understanding (and this is not legal advice:rolleyes:) is that if they pay you the basic legal minimum time served compensation/ notice requirement, they can do whatever they like.

Even in the case of CBAs though there is not much can be done to enforce them if an employer wants to screw over the workforce, look at the way compensation agreements have been ignored in the case of many of the automotive suppliers going under:(

I did retain a lawyer at one time in a dispute over compensation, and all he was able to negotiate was that his fees would be paid by my ex (and current again) employer!

Re: Disposable employees
 

Changing things? Oh dear, thats your mistake right there. "Well, hey, you know, it's just the way things are eh?"

Still, getting redundo'd sucks. But on the plus side you get to listen to your landladies prayers for your immortal souls more.

Re: Disposable employees
 

sorry Paolo.

Doesn't sound like a good fit anyway, so here's to a better job coming around the corner! :thumbup:

Re: Disposable employees
 

Happened to me after 2 1/2 years, satisfactory appraisals and then BONK...out the door.

Hope a much better job with a much better company comes along, like it did with me.

Re: Disposable employees
 

The key thing I have noticed in Canada is that it only takes someone to say something bad about a fellow employees performance and that is enough to get someone fired. I found that in the UK it was more fact based. In Canada there is not only an expectation that you perform but you have to constantly remind people that you are performing. One piece of advice I would give anyone out here is to sell the successes you have at work. The people I have seen fired have been great people and have made significant contributions to the business but they were never good at informing and presenting to peers and management what improvements they had made to the business. If you improve efficiency, come up with the latest mouse trap or even just manage to stay within your budget that will not save your job unless you sell this to your boss and your peers. It is a cultural difference but it is easy to adapt even though it is not so much of a British trait to sell ones self!

Re: Disposable employees
 

AzzHoylander - whereabouts in Canada are you? I see where you're coming from, in a way.

What I've noticed in my brief time back in the working world is that personality 'fit' seems important and building relationships with your coworkers really helps. I was talking to a recruiter before I got my current job who was originally from Ontario - he was saying recruiting in BC is very different to Toronto. In Toronto they cared more about the bottom line, in Vancouver they care whether they like you or not. It's more about relationship building here.

I don't know if that helps at all...but I thought it was an interesting observation.

Re: Disposable employees
 

Hmmm... yes thats what Im thought..so really your in the lap ot the Gods or a wing and a prayer. Personally I see Canadian employers at looking at you as if you fit in with their team more than the high points of your career. I dont know.....so many people give different examples, personal experience seems the only way, there doesnt seem to be a norm.....

Re: Disposable employees
 

Of course, who you know not what you know. If you can, you are better off just contracting, then no drug plan.

Re: Disposable employees
 

When we hire, whether a candidate can fit in is as important as experience and qualifications. The last thing we want is a highly skilled pain in the arse. Harmony in the workplace contributes far more to productivity. Our key employees are involved in the 2nd stage of the interview process. What they say plays a significant part in the decision making process.

Who you know can play a part in getting an interview, but a good recruiter makes their decision on the best candidate for the company. We made the mistake of hiring friends, that rarely works out. Had to let a couple go and now not friends.

Re: Disposable employees
 

The problem is that lot of companies use the 'not a good fit' excuse to not employ women, black people etc. Not that I'm accusing you of that mind.

Re: Disposable employees
 

We're 90% staffed by women, 7 different nationalities, ages from 18 to 60+.

Re: Disposable employees
 

So you're prejudice against men ? sexist ;)

Re: Disposable employees
 

Hmmm... my previous company seemed v. concerned with 'fitting in' but they were also very diverse. Canadian company too.

Re: Disposable employees
 

Really, I thought it was because the managers in these companies are so gutless that they cannot make a decision and do the job that they are hired to do. Also, they can share the blame when they end up hiring the wrong person.

Just like Toyota, teamwork, teamwork, teamwork, and not enough attention to the job in hand.

Re: Disposable employees
 

Wasn't it so much better in the old days, when some old white guy would just make a decision and everyone just hopped to it, the plebs that they were? Yeah *sighs wistfully*

Re: Disposable employees
 

I will arrive in Vancouver in two weeks, no less than that. This is a very interesting discussion.

I might get a transfer from my current employer (big multinational corporation), or I might find myself pursuing the jobsearch, will see.

I did a couple of interviews both with employers and with recruiting agencies between February and April 2009 -- the only interview I had this year (outside my current company) was with a company. The hiring manager placed sooo much emphasis on the fact that he would fire me, if I didn't perform (mentioned it at least five times during the first interview), that I thought there must be something wrong with his own performance, and he was preparing to blame that on someone else. Anyway -- I do get the hire and fire mentality, but naively thought as long as you got along both with your manager and your coworkers and performed in your job you were kind of safe?

Re: Disposable employees
 

I knew the laws behind firing in Canada were "weaker" than those in the UK but I didnt realise it could be so easy and quick to dump someone out the door.

Is this something found from businesses and companies of all sizes or does it tend to be the larger sized organisations that move along people they arent quite happy with?

What I will say though is that like George Clooney's character in Up In the Air, you should look at redundancy as an opportunity. Its a bit of a cheesey outlook I know but it comes from experience. My other half had huge debts when we met and was made redundant recently. Fortunately her package was huge, cleared her debts and allowed her to spend lots of time with the wee man. I know thats a rare result from redundancy but I bet a huge number of people who end up sacked will probably not have been enjoying their job and in a way it'll be doing them a favour long term.

Re: Disposable employees
 

:blink:

Re: Disposable employees
 

Hmmmm I should really have read that over before posting it...:lol:

Re: Disposable employees
 

For those that want to buy into this corporate brainwashing and believe they are part of the corporate "family" then that is okay. But everyone is disposable when times get tough and the general atmosphere in the corporate World is not changing for the better, despite all of the philanphropic nonsense that is thrown around.

As Aviator points out, there are those employees who are a "pain in the arse" and those that fit in with the crowd. But to me, there is a third category, that is those who are competent at their jobs but do not want to be constantly selling themselves or it is not in their nature to sell themselves. Because the interviewing process is so subjective in Canada, these are the people who are often overlooked.

Re: Disposable employees
 

I have worked in Canada for just 3 months and every week someone is "fired".
No one bats an eyelid. It seems to be the norm.
One manager was fired because they had "philosophical differences" with the owner!! It doesnt seem to matter where on the hierarchy you are. Anyone is very dispensible.
My position was made into a permanent one last week which is good but I have never felt so insecure in any job before.
It is very different to the UK.

Re: Disposable employees
 

I think the UK used to be the same, before tight legislation was introduced.

I remember an ex-boss, back in the early 90s, bemoaning how hard it had become to fire people.

Re: Disposable employees
 

Spot on. Read Chris Hedges:Empire of Illusion. Then pass it on to the aviator.

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Yes, even the Romans knew that they had to throw a good show when moral was low to keep the masses happy, just like the celebrity culture we have today.

Re: Disposable employees
 

adds to reading list.

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Here is a review, quite interesting:

http://blogcritics.org/books/article...-illusion-the/

Re: Disposable employees
 

Hi

Then you might want to watch the movie "I'm all Right Jack"

Re: Disposable employees
 

That's just one aspect of what Hedges is on about. However what he says is not at all new anyway. Do some reading on the Spectacularists of the late '60s. Nonetheless, it's good to see someone still banging on in the face of oblivion.

Re: Disposable employees
 

When I worked in the engineering industry in the north of England, It never ceased to amaze me as to how many shop stewards were promoted to the ranks of management and they willingly accepted. At least most of those who good as shop stewards. Maybe this was their strategy to get ahead?

Re: Disposable employees
 

Hi
Usually here in a union company you are pretty bullet proof after probation.
After that it is the usual seniority, for everything..
It doesn't matter if you are an ace employee or not,
Or even if you can do the job.
cheers
Jerry

Re: Disposable employees
 

jerry brewer

When I was a senior manager in Canada I came up against the seniority "bumping" practice used by unions. I had to fight hard too keep excellent technical and engineering staff due to individuals(much less competent) from other parts of the organisation exercises their "bumping rights". I never lost any staff, but I was a hard fight with the unions/HR.

I really prefer working under UK employment legislation/collective agreements as you really have to done something really wrong to get fired, not just because your face does not fit in your job.

I feel much more secure working in the UK, than I did for some Canadian companies.

hudd

Re: Disposable employees
 

As a manager with much experince in the recruitment process in differing organisations I can say this.

Each organisation will start to recruit by filling the essential criteria of what the applicant needs to have to match with the job description. Then the desirable criteria is look at and a balance found between the two.

But an awful lot of organisations then also include the factor of the organisational culture. Some prefer a person who fits the job and some prefer a person who fits the organisation.

Where organisation fit is the focus, a factor known as the horns or halo effect comes into play.

We all feel difference when we meet a new person, whether it is because of colour of skin, accent, gender or legal status (PR rather than citizen).

But whether a person allows difference to affect their judgement (horns) or similarity to affect their judgement (halo) is down to the individual.

In extreme cases where someone does allow this to influence their choices it can be seen as racism. But more subtle instances can go on as well that the general population may not notice or be outraged by.

So when we as immigrants are looking for a job we have the odds stacked against us as we are seen as outsiders. Now add a strong accent that most canadians would not be used to hearing, now add a work history that has unfamilur sectors.

My advice is to minimise as many of these factors as you can. Network and become part of canadian society, take an interest in the national passtimes (hockey), if your english is not great work on it, dress like them. Remove all the differances you can.

If then you are rejected when your work or history matches what they want, then you know it is a company that is holding the things you cannot change against you (gender, colour, religion) and you are well rid of them.

Just my thoughts

Re: Disposable employees
 

<cringes at the very idea>

They're lucky to have us you know, not the other way around. We should bring them fashion, not clad ourselves in clashing plaid and John Deere caps. We should seek to improve their national pastimes, sell them on football, don't indulge their interest in iced hockey.

There's a fine line between offensively pointing out the poor quality of English usage in Canada and demonstrating the proper use of the language by example. When dealing with cradles one does tend to slip into shouting the same simple phrase louder and louder in the hope that they'll eventually catch on. One must guard against this unhelpful practice, one must be gentle with them, but for the sake of one's self-respect, one should never adapt one's use of English simply so that they may understand it.

To "remove all the differances" would be to sell one's soul for the occasional use of a snow machine.

Re: Disposable employees
 

It's the same here in Ontario especially. Union stewards (with MBA's) are more company managers than company managers are. In the past 20 years, there has been an astonishing re-alignment wherein employees are literally surrendering the futures of the next generation of working people. I know of 8 stewards who either joined management ranks or got early retirement with huge severance pay after "selling out" and manipulating membership. Treachery abounds, and as Hedges points out morality is non existent without that sense of obligation and duty for the greater good. As in slavery, fear is the rule, compliance the weapon.

Re: Disposable employees
 

This is exactly what my company wants, strip everyone of their individuality and make them part of the collective. Many people forget that innovation comes from individuality and certainly not from the cloning process.

Re: Disposable employees
 

To put things in perspective, we are in a bad recession and many people and companies are experiencing a reversal of fortunes. When the economy comes back and jobs are more available, many of the insecurities that everyone is feeling will go away, hopefully.