Coping with snow
 

It's just started snowing/sleeting here in South Wales, and I'm sure if it continues for more than a few minutes the TV weather will be urging people to stay off the roads unless their journey is essential. :ohmy:

This got me wondering about conditions in Canada, where obviously there is Real Snow, and not the half-hearted slush we have here.

We are looking to move to the Anprior/Renfrew area of Ontario, a province which does seem to have its fair share of heavy snow, and I'm a little concerned about the prospect of having to drive through snow each day to get to work (no job lined up yet).

The following might seem like obvious questions, but I've little experience of driving regularly in a real snowfall, and would love to hear people's answers:

How do you cope on the roads with snow day after day?

Are all the roads (hopefully we'd be living in town, and not out in the countryside) cleared every day, and is it just a case of fitting snow tires and/or chains and going slowly, or is driving still a real effort?

What difference do the tires and chains make?

What vehicle would we need to be safe? I've looked at a few threads here and some people say you need a 4WD/SUV, while others say a front wheel drive car and chains is enough.

Any information would be much appreciated.

Re: Coping with snow
 

To be honest with you i live in Winnipeg which is pretty bad for snow but...Generally there is very little snow on the roads ever. When it snows people should be driving slowly until the snow crews clear it away. Snow tires help but i think it's fair to say it might snow badly 10 times a year and it is only ever a problem for the first 10 hours of the snowfall(unless a blizzard hits).

Re: Coping with snow
 

I drive 50 or 75 miles to work most days through an area with comparable weather to that which you're considering. See the blog for images of the route and of the snow volumes.

YMMV but:

- you can't use chains, they're illegal in Ontario and, besides, they slow you down too much for commuting

- road clearance depends on the county and varies hugely. However, in most rural counties you can count on the paved roads being ploughed in time for commuting.

- I moved from the city where I ran a RWD car. I acquired a FWD in order to cope with the conditions and think that was prudent. I wouldn't bother with a four wheel drive so long as your driving is on roads. We do have a four wheel drive vehicle but only use it in fields. I don't have snow tyres, I expect they'd be nice to have.

- Clearing the driveway is a massive pain in the arse. When I get home I park on the street and check to see if the drive has been ploughed in; if it has I clear it before driving into the windrow and getting stuck.

- I've pulled/pushed maybe twenty cars out this winter so far. One yesterday.
They nearly all get stuck the same way I have twice this year - falling off the side of the road. Either side of most roads is a ditch, the plough fills this with snow level with the road surface so one cannot see where the edge of the tarmac is, go too far over and the car lists alarmingly.

- it's generally very poor office politics not to come in because of weather. If you're going to have a long commute budget for a few nights per year in an hotel near the office.

- road closures are a bother. We routinely drive on the closed roads as, when the main roads are closed, the unclosed ones are generally in very poor shape but there's a potential $110 fine for each trip.

- check school closures for the area you're considering. Days on which the schools are closed (not just buses cancelled) are ones on which it's dangerous to drive; we've had a half-dozen or so this year.

- beware of warm days, melting snow means fog and that's as bad as a white out.

- watch the movie Fargo. That's the what you're getting yourself into (though not, one hopes, the wood chipper).

Re: Coping with snow
 

Thanks for the advice - that's pretty reassuring. To be honest I hadn't thought about staying in a hotel near work, but it seems really obvious and does make sense.

If I end up anywhere near the woodchipper at the end of Fargo, things will have gone badly wrong and I will be most disappointed with my experience of Canada...

Re: Coping with snow
 

Thanks for that, very helpful for us newbies!! Will send karma, thanks for typing it all out. :)

And am now off to rent Fargo as have no idea what anybody's talking about........

Re: Coping with snow
 

Everybody should watch Fargo, if only for the outrageous accents. Once you've seen it, you too will be going "yaah" and "kinda funny lookin'" on a regular basis.

Re: Coping with snow
 

I don't know that Winnipeg is that bad for snow, no doubt Steve will come along and give us the stats soon. I think I've seen more of the white stuff here but of course it melts after a few days which is great. And dangerous, because it refreezes.

I'd say that drivers slow right down here in snow, until the roads are clear, they didn't in Winnipeg. But the authorities here and in Detroit seem to be "running out of salt" at the moment which is a little worrying and there were a couple of 20+ car pile-ups over the border at the weekend :unsure:

I've been amazed at the ploughing in a small town like this, they're driving round 3 or 4 times even before it's stopped snowing. Bored, obviously! My Ontario geography's lousy but I wouldn't ever want to live in a lake-effect snow zone, what a bother that seems to be.

Went to the real Fargo several times from Winnipeg, very disappointing, didn't hear anybody speak like in the film, only really heard Somali accents :thumbsup:

Re: Coping with snow
 

Winnipeg this year has been good to be honest only one bad storm but then again it was between -20 and -40 for around 6 weeks. and when it's cold it doesn't snow.

plus i do have the added benefit that i live in a city and not rurally. most of our highways have been shut this weekend though because it snowed around 10 cm on thurs/friday and the warmed up over the weekend which caused ice, also the wind was high....nice weather

Re: Coping with snow
 

The hardest thing I've found is some of the other drivers.... especially some of the truck drivers! They're used to it and don't slow down. Being overtaken by an 18 wheeler and covered in slush at night is not fun!!!!

Keeping in lane can be a challenge too. The white lines can't be seen (even if it's just been "cleared") and they don't have cats eyes.

I'm slowly getting used to it (we've been having snow since November, over 3 metres now).... just go real easy to start with!

Re: Coping with snow
 

The blowing snow was horrible, only had that a little bit of that here. I remember coming back from Grand Forks one night and it was so bad, we were using the sat nav to know when there was a bend coming in the road because we couldn't see a thing out the windscreen :eek:

Re: Coping with snow
 

Hello Grendel...I'm in Ottawa where we have had the 2nd snowiest winter on record (something like 320 cm since November 20 and continuous snow cover since that day), but the driving has been quite good. Renfrew/Arnprior get similar weather patterns as Ottawa.

Here is the 1971-2000 average for Renfrew

http://www.climate.weatheroffice.ec....4359&autofwd=1

Despite what dbd said, Renfrew gets little to no lake effect snow and snowsqualls that they get on the lee side of the Great Lakes (i.e Wasaga Beach, Owen Sound, Goderich, Parry Sound) as it is too far away from the Great Lakes....what it does get is probably colder clear winter nights and more synoptic snow (general weather pattern moving through).

The roads are plowed efficiently and quickly unless you are on a minor road in which case it may be a day or two after the snowfall (you just need to get to a main road). During that day or two the cars on your road will pack the snow down. Chains are illegal in Ontario and many people in your area are wise to use snow tyres (they are more efficient than regular tyres below 7 c). Next winter they will be mandatory in Quebec.

Hope this helps and good luck in your job search in the 'prior or the 'frew.

Re: Coping with snow
 

I don't know that they're used to it, they may just be mad. I don't like driving on the highways in bad weather as one has very little control over what's going to happen; I stopped on ice because the car in front did, the one behind didn't and all the cars shot around like snooker balls, a slab of ice flew off a van in front of me and went through my windshield, I'm often delayed because trucks jacknifed or blew over on bridges. Slush and the lack of mudflaps on trucks means, as you say, frequently driving blind. If I see a truck from Khalistan Trucking coming I get off the road, other than that there's little one can do.

Re: Coping with snow
 

You'll be wanting synoptic tyres for that then, I expect it's both special and metric.

Re: Coping with snow
 

Well, perhaps. My girlfriend has managed for years with only FWD, but having driven AWD and FWD on snow here I'm definitely getting an AWD car; I'd never even consider taking the FWD car anywhere near the crappy roads that the AWD handled like they were dry tarmac, because it did so badly on any kind of snow.

Now, all three cars were on all season tires, so I'm sure the FWD would do better with winter tires. But having seen the difference -- and how badly my girlfriend's FWD handles the snow at times -- I think it's an easy choice.

Incidentally, I was reading yesterday that, based on sunspot observations, the sun appears to be entering a cooling phase; so cold and snowy winters may be with us for quite some time.

Re: Coping with snow
 

I was rather amused by the 'Picture of the day' on the BBC News website showing 'A snow plough clears the path for traffic after overnight snow at Hartside in Cumbria.' ;)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl...8761/img/1.jpg

Re: Coping with snow
 

Perfect! Even down to the tyres.

<Perhaps it should be sinoptic in Canadalish?>

Re: Coping with snow
 

I saw this and almost laughed but then i remembered what it was like when i was there....

Re: Coping with snow
 

Based on your response about synoptic tyres etc etc, a snippet of your original posting on this subject makes me realize that you need to invest in some snow tyres and stop driving on closed roads (there is a reason that they are closed...I've travelled along Airport Road btwn Collingwood and Brampton and when the road is closed it usually means that there are serious whiteouts and you are in danger of going off the road or hitting an oncoming car or hit a car in front of you that has slowed down). If the road is closed, stay off it and don't expect the rest of us to give you any sympathy.

Re: Coping with snow
 

Thanks everybody for the replies so far.

If we were looking to buy a 4WD vehicle when we get over to help us cope with the weather, are there any in particular that we should look for or avoid? I've looked at a few websites, but it's hard to know what's good or bad because the makes and models are so different to the UK.

We'd be looking to buy something that's maybe two or three years old. How much would be have to pay for something reliable? I know you get what you pay for, but it would help if we could have some sort of rough figure. In the UK I suppose I'd be prepared to spend around £10,000 - is that enough, or would we end up with something that's more than a few years old?

Our plan at present is for me to have a 4WD while my wife has a car - maybe a Chrysler Sebring or something similar (we drove one during a recce trip and fell in love with it). Is owning a car like that realistic in Ontario's weather? Or am I just being pessimistic?

Re: Coping with snow
 

We have a four wheel drive, an old Land Cruiser, and an AWD, a Honda Element. The latter has a "just too late" mechanism which I think is worse than RWD; the car starts to slide, you catch it, sigh with relief, and then the other two wheels kick in sending you sideways again. I would avoid any automatic four wheel drive mechanism, also automatic gearboxes if possible - it's easier to control wheelspin with a clutch.

Re: Coping with snow
 

I suppose it would be terribly Canadian of me to point out that Airport Road doesn't go from Brampton to Collingwood. You're probably thinking of CR124 or highway 10, or something.

Re: Coping with snow
 

I hold my hand up...you are right....Airport Road ends in Stayner and not Collingwood...I was thinking of 10/124. I was a passenger and we were on 10/124 and came to a place where the road was closed (somewhere where there was a general store on the east side of the road full of people like us stuck for a few hours). We turned back to Brampton and gave up on skiing for the day.

If you're driving so far every day in winter conditions, why don't you get snow tyres and ease some of the stress.

Re: Coping with snow
 

For AWD, Subaru would be a decent choice. And of course a Chrysler Sebring would be fine. Millions of Canadians drive ordinary front-drive cars. If you have a place to store them, a set of good snow tires is a good idea.

Re: Coping with snow
 

The usual point of closure of 124 has a Pete's Donuts on the west side and a Chinese restaurant on the east. It's be better to be stuck there than at the closure point for 10; that only has a curling rink. Sometimes they close 124 a little farther north, at Masonville, I expect you were there. We're just beyond that, a bit north and west.

I haven't bought snow tyres because they've never seemed important to me, maybe when I have one or more of everything else.

Re: Coping with snow
 

Well to be honest I have heard from many people that if you drive manual or 'shift' as it's more commonly called then i have heard that snow tires increase the performance of the car no end but with automatic the car doesn't need as much traction. i've only been driving automatic in this country so i don't know how true this is.

Re: Coping with snow
 

Hi Grendel

THis is my first ever Canadian winter - even thought I had been coming out here for about 20 years before emigration :eek:

All in all the snow isnt as bad as I thought it would be and we have had snow in Southern ALberta from 3rd week of November until a couple of weeks ago (with some more forecast for overnight tonight).

I wont try to kid you that it doesnt get cold because if you choose to go out in -15 then yes it is cold :eek:

As long as you go out covered up you will be ok, the roads are no where near as bad as they are in the UK - if the UK had a 1/4 of what we had here the whole country would close down for sure !

If you are settling in a town then you shouldnt need any tyre chains - in fact I have never seen a car/truck with them on but I would advise for you to have an all wheel drive vehicle as this makes it so much easier for you to drive in the snow when you are not used to it.

As other people have said the roads are usually cleared and easily passible apart from sometimes the highways between places have taken a little longer to clear and caused problems for people passing.

From a UK Northerner who hated all snow and cold Canada is no where near as bad as I thought it would be - and seriously I was c$#ping myself about it :eek:

Good Luck

Gaynor
x

Re: Coping with snow
 

That's great to hear.

Thanks a lot - everybody's replies have been very reassuring. Our snow here has stopped already, and I'm sure it will disappear in just a few minutes. Doesn't really count as snow, does it?

Re: Coping with snow
 

:huh: I don't know who all these people are you've heard from, but they're all talking nonsense. The biggest advantage you gain from snow tires (search for any thread to which Iaink has contributed on the subject ;), or possibly even look at the wiki article on winter driving, it may quote a source) is that you get better traction under braking on iffy surfaces in cold weather. Nobody really cares a great deal if you spin your wheels a bit off the line at the traffic lights, but it makes a big difference to be able to stop before driving into the back of the car in front. The number of driven wheels or the type of transmission make no difference in these circumstances; winter tyres do.

Re: Coping with snow
 

Like i said i drive automatic so it doesn't really affect me but if my wheels span everytime i tried to accelerate i can see why people might prefer to have snow tires.

I know it has added benefit for stopping but that's not there only advantage which is why i posted that point i didn't mention the braking aspect because it was already covered.

Basically i think if you have the money why not get something that will improve on your winter road experience?

Re: Coping with snow
 

I don't know why you wouldn't need as much traction with an automatic, that's a strange idea. To clarify on the matter of wheelspin, you need this once you're stuck, not in normal driving. Bumping a stuck car out of the snow requires ferocious wheelspin and frequent switching between first and reverse; this is easy enough in a normal car but, in an automatic, tends to result in an expensive smell.

Re: Coping with snow
 

OK, point taken:).

At the end of my road is an uphill junction onto a more major road. I'm frequently grateful for the traction control in my car as I turn onto the main road, despite the snow tires!

I had a great schadenfreude moment the other day, when waiting at the bus stop near the junction, watching a guy in a 5-series BMW give up trying to turn onto the main road against a red into what would normally have been a big enough gap in traffic, because his RWD beemer on all-seasons could only get him sliding sideways rather than moving forward. The Yaris ahead of him had made the corner effortlessly:sneaky:

My personal view is that my driving pleasure is better served by FWD and a decent chassis than 4WD if that means buying a truck, but it's horses for courses, innit?

Re: Coping with snow
 

Exactly i think part of the trouble is that Canadians don't really know how a manual car actually works, unlike us brits they will pass in an auto and then try manual and eventually they slowly learn 'what works' rather than 'how it works' which in turn causes them to try to 'force start' the car rather than gently getting the bite and slowly edging forwards. (if you get me)

Re: Coping with snow
 

Have you any idea at all how smug and arrogant that sounds?

Re: Coping with snow
 

I was going to say I have a 2WD but then a bicycle is only a one wheel drive.:lol:

Re: Coping with snow
 

Is it smug/arrogant for the DVLA to not let Canadians drive manual?

Re: Coping with snow
 

The Civic I test-drove had horrendous wheel-spin on snow with all-season tires. The Impreza not only drove better, but stopped better too; though that's probably just because it's 20% more expensive and has better brakes, rather than anything to do with the AWD and stability control gadgetry.

Re: Coping with snow
 

well yes, with all-season tires it would :p. "All-season tires" is an infamous misnomer; they are not suitable for every season. At temperatures even slightly below zero, the rubber compound hardens up considerably, so the grip available tails off very quickly with decreasing temperatures. The Impreza undoubtedly will have got you round corners with greater panache - there's a reason it has been at the top of the rallying game for as long as it has - but any improvement in stopping power on winter roads is marginal.

In low temperatures - never mind the quantity of snow and ice, it's just as apparent on dry tarmac - the efficiency of the brakes or the number of driven wheels is neither here nor there. The deciding factor in how quickly you can stop is the friction between your tires and the road. 2WD, 4WD, whatever, it's all the same when it comes to stopping. That has nothing to do with the cost of the car or the configuration of the drivetrain, and everything to do with what boots it's wearing.

Can you tell I had an Iaink-like epiphany on the benefits of winter tires last year? Thankfully a narrow miss rather than a coming-together, but a close enough call :o

Re: Coping with snow
 

I'm with you Brother Oakvillian, I too am converted to the way of snow tires (for my 4x4 Jeep) after having to sail through a red light because there was no way in hell my all seasons were going to bring me to a halt on time.

Really though this subject is a no brainer. Buy snow tires. It makes sense. Insurance in Canada is expensive enough not to risk your NCB on a snow related accident even if you are blase about the risks to the occupants of the vehicle. Also it's not as if you are not getting use and wear out of the tires anyway. Your just investing in two sets at a time rather than sequentially.

Re: Coping with snow
 

I didn't measure the stopping distances, so it's possible they were the same. But the Impreza stopped in a straight line with minimal fuss on an icy, snow-covered gravel road where I wouldn't even have considered taking the Civic; I tried an emergency stop on a snow-covered car park and that put me off the idea of trying its brakes anywhere else.

At the limit, yes. But even if the stopping distances were identical it's one thing to stop in a straight line with no fuss, and quite another to be sliding from side to side with the brakes juddering under the ABS at lower speeds on a less crappy surface.

Re: Coping with snow
 

Vancouver is very British when snow falls.

Got caught twice driving to Whistler in very heavy snow. Very scary. Not the snow, the other drivers.