iaink

Good driving skills in a three ton leviathon dont help you though. Sure, sometimes there is nothing you can do (although fortunanetly I have been lucky for the last 15 years), but I have had enough near misses in my car to know that I would have a couple of fine 6 point bucks mounted on my wall at home If I was still driving the Jeep.

pchapman

You can't seriously be advancing an SUV as a "driver's car", can you? I've never heard that one before. A Miata is a driver's car. A BMW is a driver's car.

Your power/torque argument is self-contradictory. How is the power and torque in an SUV any more useful than in an SL500? In fact, it's less useful because it's dragging around all that extra mass. It's all about the power-to-weight ratio.

I can understand people buying SUVs because they Just Want It. Fair enough. Just don't complain about the cost of gas or tires. I'm trying to help people who have convinced themselves that they need one, when they really don't. Especially Brits coming to Canada thinking it's the Wild West or something.

pchapman

Nothing is a guarantee of anything. You could equally say that the extra mass of an SUV is no guarantee against a fatal or disabling crash. I prefer to stack the odds against the accident happening, because any crash no matter how small is something I can do without.

You know, you could reduce the odds of a head injury in an accident by wearing a helmet while you're driving. Do I see anyone doing that (other than WRC teams)? No way.

iaink

Me too. I had myself convinced it was necessary, but then I didnt have the benefit of a forum like this. I have no problem with people getting one if they want one (although I wish they would think about the consequences of their actions and reconsider), but if they think they need one, thats a different thing entirely.

Subj

Without starting a technical discussion on the intricacies of automotive mechanics - I did not claim that the power-to-weight ratio of an SL (which by the way weighs around 2 tons) is better or worse than that of an SUV. Comparing cars from that perspective nothing beats a Caterham and the rest of them 600 bhp/ton lightweight caskets. A was more referring to the fact that both an SL and say a Hummer H2 have around 300 horses at their disposal, yet one is suited for high speed driving while the other is more appropriate for weight hauling/heavy off-roading, and does not shine in terms of top speed. Therefore the comparison between an SL and an SUV was purely from the applicability standpoint. Just like here in Germany, I would never choose an SUV over an SL, I would not want to have a Corvette or a Viper in Canada and be shackled to the draconic highway speed limits.

Speaking of "driver's cars'" - not only responsive or well-handling cars fall into this category. Any car that is enjoyable to drive can be classed as one. In the case of SUVs - in addition to their massive road presence they can provide the thrill of off-roading, which IMHO is enjoyable enough for the car to be considered "driver's".

dbd33

I like to drive offroad but what one needs for that is an old truck, we use a fifteen year old Land Cruiser, and interesting terrain, the truck is in Colorado. The SUVs I see at the mall and the barn are not suitable for driving off road, some, such as the Navigator, are defeated by conditions as bad as light drizzle, while many SUVs are leased and the lease specifically excludes use off road. These SUVs are in Southern Ontario where there is a distinct lake of mountains, streams and, indeed, any sort of geographical feature.

I suggest that less than 1% of SUVs are ever driven on anything other than pavement. I know that, had my daughter not learned sailing before driving, our Explorer would never have had dirty tyres. It only got used on mud because the action used to steer a boat, when applied to a car, causes yawing from lawn to lawn.

Subj

Agreed. I, however, have plans for occasional off-road use for the Grand Cherokee I'll be buying. But off-roading is only one of the perks these 4x4s can offer. Vehicles the size of a Navigator also give you the sensation of driving a dreadnaught .

pchapman

What's with all the pejorative language? "Shoebox"? "Casket"? It doesn't exactly advance your case.

Actually, the popular definition of "driver's car" does emphasize handling. The SL500 isn't exactly my ideal car (much too heavy), I was using your dichotomy. "Massive road presence" exists only in your mind. Do you think this will get you deferential treatment from other drivers? Hell no. Certainly not from me.

I have never heard of anyone who goes off-roading with a new SUV. People use old Samurais, Lada Nivas, Jeeps and the like for that. Something cheap that they can trash without costing a fortune. Do you think insurance covers damage from off-road adventures?

The "draconic highway speed limits" in Canada are widely ignored. If you're going more than 140km/h, you deserve the ticket.

iaink

Probably makes way more sense to own a $10k old Jeep TJ for off roading and a 30k new Honda saloon for day to day driving, than to spend $40-50k on a new SUV to do both jobs.

Twenty years ago 75% of cars were bought to replace an old and dying vehicle, and the rest were bought as some kind of fashion accessory. Now those numbers are reversed. Selling cars now is all about projecting the right image, but i guess thats cos most cars are pretty competent now, so reliability and performance is less than an issue.

Subj

Now you are getting nasty. You were the one to mutilitate my initial affirmations, starting a useless and out-of-place discussion on how power-to-weight ratio is all that matters and what your definition of a "driver's car" is. The point I was trying to get across is that not everybody wants to have a souless people carrier that mere serves its purpose. There are some who also want to enjoy the actual driving process, be it driving a cabrio, a Jeep or a freaking monster truck. Exactly the reason I've been driving a Mercedes as opposed to a cheaper, more "cost-efficient" and "environment-friendly" VW Golf.

Do you think I give a shit ?

If you'd been a bit more attentive and looked through my earlier posts BEFORE starting your pointless rant you would have spotted the part where I was explicitly referring to a "used" Jeep.

Well I'm not planning to ignore the Canadian "draconic highway speed limits", and this is exactly the reason I''m not opting for a fast car.

To sum it all up - what do you think gives you the right to criticize peoples' tastes, ambitions and preferences ? What makes you the ultimate expert of all things driven ? What makes you think people will change their likings because of your adept assesment of a vehicle they prefer ?

pchapman

You're right, this is getting nasty and this will be my last post on the subject. My intention is not to flame, but I will point out logical errors and fallacies when I see them. Smuggling in assumptions by the use of pejorative language gets my goat.

It's not my definition, it's the popularly accepted definition. And it's not out of place, since the issue here is why people buy what they do. I don't expect everyone to drive a sports car (I don't), but handling is related to safety which quite a few people are interested in.

I certainly understand this. In fact, I'm quite partial to Benzes myself. Mercedes drivers (unless they're driving an ML or G-class) enjoy their vehicles without unnecessarily threatening other motorists.

Who's being nasty again? Evidently you do give a shit, otherwise you wouldn't bother to say anything.

Of course I can criticize others' tastes and preferences, just as others can criticize mine. Welcome to life. I'm not a car expert, but I do my homework and I have managed to dissuade quite a few people who were swept away by the SUV hype. So yes, I do think that some people will change their "likings" because of me, based on past experience. If that's arrogance, well, guilty as charged.

This is the last post, as stated.

Calgal

Hmmm - to say they're not neccessary in Canada is also subjective (bear in mind you're in Ontario, I'm in Alberta). But I believe we have 'equally' brutal winter weather.

I have two vehicles. A large 4X4 minivan (Safari), so, much like the SUV in terms of weight, and road clearance (unlike other minivans), and a front wheel drive (drivers ) car.

There are days in the winter when the car gets stuck in the snow, it simply hasn't got the ground clearance to cope with the occasional heavy snowfalls, and on those days the van is definitely a neccessity if you need to get to work. I have been looking into changing our van recently, and so have looked at cars and SUV's (which I'd rather NOT have cos I really LOVE to drive), but one has to be practical One SUV which surprised me, and that offered an excellent level of equipment, quality in finish, and a 'car like' drive, was the Acura MDX. Seemed like a good compromise between a car and an SUV. Now that my boys are older and have their own cars, we may choose to reduce to one vehicle instead of one each, so this would be a good option if we DON'T want to get snowed in.

Subj

Of all people you should know better about "smuggling in assumptions", you started it when you perverted my earlier statements. I am growing weary of the flames myself, so I am going to conclude this meaningless discussion. Good luck to you, pchapman, and the rest of you preachers on your anti-SUV crusade. As you have yourself admitted you are no car expert, so if I need professional advise I'll seek help elsewhere. Perhaps, those in dire need of your consultancy or those that can't do their homework themselves will be eternally grateful.

But, the simple truth is, a lot of people (myself included) can work out what's best for them on their own and get extremely annoyed by the likes of you telling them why their opinions are crap.

If, in your terms of reference, owning and driving an SUV is branded as arrogance, then criticizing one for doing so is sheer ignorance.

P.S. Oh yeah, don't be "threatened" when you see me in this Hummer I was mentioning, I won't run you over


Subj, out.

iaink

No snow clearance in Alberta then? I have to say I am surprised. I live in semi rural ontario, and have never once got close to not having enough clearance in my (drivers) Legacy GT, complete with ground clearance reducing tacky plastic "ground effects" kit.

Rich_007

Nobody mentioned Chryslers.....and to think I just wanna know views on 'em...this thread has gone mental !!!!