Canada or the UK?
 

Hi.....I need to prove that Canada would be a better place than the UK for my son to grow up. Any information you could supply me with would be great...i.e. how good is the schooling, friendly neighbourhoods, activities for children. We would be looking at living in North Vancouver.

Many thanks.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

Why would you need to prove it? A thread like this will bring all sorts of comparisons and you will end up being more confused.
There are several threads discussing about which is better.
Why North Vancouver as well seeing Vancouver was recently voted the most expensive city in North America beating out LA & New York
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2.../19376641.html
You can use the Wiki button at the top or search threads.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

Much as I like living in Canada and am happy to raise a family here I dont think there is any way it can be proven either way, its all far too subjective.
International comparisons of literacy and numeracy, life expectancy, "quality of life" etc may put canada slightly ahead, but there is so little in it in real terms that you could easily argue the disruption caused by taking a child from one environment and parachuting them into a new one might negate any benefits anyway, not to mention the loss of contacts with family, and exposure to the European treasure trove of art, history, culture etc thats thinner on the ground here.

The bottom line is both are "first world" nations with excellent prospects for education, healthcare, leasure activities etc etc.

Anyway, this is clearly one for the "lifestyle" forum, so I will move it...

Maybe the clinching argument is that a normal UK speaking voice is likely to be considered "cute" here by some, and that could be very useful when dealing with members of the opposite sex;)

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

What age is your boy?

We have two, one 11 and one just turning 13, yes, a teen, lol.

The older is just not interested, and seems to love the crap weather over here and all the neds at his school who like to attack him with magic markers etc. :confused:

The more you try to convince them the more they get suspicious and resent you. We've pretty much told them, we're all moving to Canada, we all have to deal with it.

But I do keep him up to date with any progress, just so he doesn't feel he's being kidnapped ;)

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

If your child is Canadian then I'd suggest Canada is best for him. If he's British then I would say the UK is the best place for him. Overall given certain social, cultural and economic variables, I would say that formal schooling in the UK is far superior when compared to Canada.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

I would also point out than Vancouver and North Vancouver are separate cities. In fact, North Vancouver is two. North Vancouver is not the cheapest place in the world but it is much more affordable than parts of Vancouver.

I am sure I read in the paper at the weekend that a 60 year old bungalow on a "large" 7,750 sf lot near the Oakridge Mall sold for $2.1m last week - on the same day it was listed. :eek: You can buy several nice houses in North Vancouver for that.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

The only way you can prove it is to move here, try it and see if it meets your needs and expectations.

It is better for some and not for others.

This is a question that cannot be definitively answered as it is subjective.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

Another one for the soon to be launched "Classic First Posts on BE" thread?

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

It sounds like the information is needed for a court hearing? I have seen posts by other parents having to prove an advantage on order to take a child to another country.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

There's "crap weather" here, too you know? And at least it is only magic markers; the "neds" at the school where I work recently picked-up and dropped a newly-arrived Brit, breaking his shoulder and elbow (jolly japesters -- and wait until they get high school and discover that they have !a police officer on the premises!)

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

You'll never be able to prove it unless your son is able to grow up in two places at the same time.

Then you need to decide what indicators have best proved his development.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

I don't know how you define formal schooling but I'd like to see your evidence for this one. I don't think this is true at all.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

while it's no major revelation that real estate is spendy here, I do feel that it does need to be put into some perspective, and there is a tendancy to take it somewhat out of context.

Vancouver proper certainly bears witness to prices in the strosphere; however, it tends to be focused on city proper, west vancouver and the north shore to a lesser extent, although probably 35 - 40 precent cheaper than the other side of the inlet. Outside of those areas prices drop dramatically, especially the further east you go. I live in south surrey where prices are at least 60 percent cheaper. North surrey is even cheaper. I certainly could not afford a hosue in central LA or New York or London for that matter...i can afford outside of vancouver.

Rent is not much worse than other cities in Canada, and considerably more affordable than the cities you have cited. but yes, one could certainly find much cheaper in Regina.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

true about the north shore being two cities (north van city and north van district)...i never knew until i moved there....seemed highly inefficient to me.

I

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

Getting opinions on a web forum won't do that. More substantial evidence is required by courts, showing research visits, documentation, written plans for settlement and the child, plans for visits to other parent/grandparents in the UK. Or at least this what we had to do back in the day.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

Too subjective, both offer pros and cons. Rather than look at it as a UK vs. Canada situation, look upon it as a life experience situation. I cannot really see anything is lost by spending at least a part of your life in a different country. I also cannot see that moving to Canada will be a disaster for you or your family, at the worst it may fail to live up to your expectations and you can also move back having had the benefit of the experience.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

The problem I have is that we are at the end of the process now, basically just waiting for our PR Visas and my sons's father has decided to change his mind and withdraw his consent for me to take him to Canada. I believe I will have to prove to the courts that my son would have a better life in Canada. I understand that this is going to be very difficult as you only really know a place once you are living there. I am very grateful for all the comments.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

Why do you think Canada would be better for your child?

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

Not sure how you can prove that to be honest, unless you/your son has family in Canada or similar?

I think it will also depend on whereabouts you are in the UK. For example, my children are currently better off in the UK close to family etc, but then we have a very nice life in Berkshire with fantastic education for my children, etc, and I'm sure I'd feel that Canada would be better if I was bringing them up in Moss Side!

Activities wise, other than skiing there's nothing they could do in North Van that they can't here, so not sure that's going to help you.

My guess is that you'll need to prove that the benefits of the move will outweigh them having regular time with their father and other family members - and I really can't think of anything that would do that, but as I said above, it will depend on your individual circumstances.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

Can't they argue that a child needs its Mother and that is more important than location. That moving the child is justified because it keeps Mother and child together despite it entailing moving the child to Canada? I think such an argument would fly in Ontario.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

Thats the way I would go, given that its impossible to prove that Canada is better or worst than the UK.


Did the Father initially give permission I wonder?

Anyway, I seriously doubt that this situation is unique, Im sure others have gone through it in the past.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

I don't think it can be proved...

But in my wife's opinion and a couple of her friends all who are/were teachers and have worked in the Ontario school system and the UK system would agree with point.

Having said that they also believe that if you’re in the upper quartile then both systems will not give you what you need, and the difference is only significant and to be concerned about if you’re in the lower quartile.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

If permission was given in writing, particularly if notarised then that should help in a court case. However if you have never been to Canada then it would be hard to demonstrate that the child will be better off in Canada without first hand knowledge. The child's life would be different, but not sure how you think it would be better. Personally I would suggest coming on a research trip, gather information pertinent to the child to show you have done your due diligence and put together written plan for the child's life in Canada, even throw in some pictures.

You might also want to demonstrate that you have considered the impact on your child of being separated from their father and his family and your plans to address that. The fathers relationship with the child, past and present also has a bearing on the outcome.

In the court the child has the rights not the parents, but courts also consider the life of the parents and the impact the decision would have on them and ultimately how it would impact the child. If its going to court, you have a lot of work to do to show you have thought this through and have the best interests of the child at heart.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

Essentially, you have to be prepared to state that, if the Court doesn't allow you to go with the child, you will go anyway (and leave the child with your ex). If you don't, the Court will always take the easy option - allow the child to have regular and frequent access with both parents.

As has been stated above, the only issue for the Court is: What is in your child's best interests. How can it possibly be in your child's best interests for contact with one parent to be massively reduced. This is not a big issue if your ex has little or no contact with the child.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

That's always the hard one, saying you will go anyway, as you risk looking like an uncaring selfish parent and of course the Ex saying OK I'll take the child to live with me. It also depends on the ex's domestic arrangements and whether he can look after the child.

I'm no expert on this, but did go through the process when sponsoring my OH.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

How old is the child concerned?

I really feel for you as I know what a difficult time you must be having. However it is a very individual situation. There are many factors that need to be taken into account. Obviously your child's age would have an impact on any decision made ie taking them out of the school system in the UK at a crucial stage in their education etc. Also what level of contact and the nature of their relationship with the absent parent. Financial situation etc....it all gets pretty complex.

If your ex agreed to the move before, what has now caused them to change their mind? If you your child has a good relationship with the absent parent then naturally this is a more difficult issue to resolve. Can you show that you will make all attempts to maintain regular contact through visits etc?

We had similar problems with my ex who eventually only signed the consent papers when I closed the CSA account, meaning he did not have to pay the £££££ arrears, nice. His lack of contact (his choice) with our child meant his input into the decision was non existent, he tried to prevent us through sheer spite. In the end it just showed him up for what he is and luckily our daughter was mature enough to see that and now wants nothing more to do with him.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

Of course. As with most things to do with Courts, it is all fact dependent.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

Just my 2p/2c, but I would say being able to see both parents is more important than moving over to Canada where you can't guarantee life is going to be any better than it is now for you or your child.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

However this is not always the case, depends on each individuals circumstances. There are no guarantees in life, you make your choices as they seem right at the time, sometimes it works out sometimes it doesn't.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

I am wondering why, if this man was so keen to have regular visiting rights to his son, he would have given consent to this in the first place?

What grounds is he giving for withdrawing his consent now?
Has anything about the arrangements changed?

Surely the courts would take into account that the father originally agreed to the move and take the view that this is just obstructive behaviour on his part to disrupt the plans of his ex?

I am not doubting in any way that a father has a right to block such a move if they want to but to agree until the very last gasp like this and then change his mind now makes me suspect his motives are not purely in the interests of his son or even anything to do with his child and that he could just be acting spitefully.

How much has the father had to do with his child so far?
Has he been reliable and diligent in his care of your son on the visits he has had previously?
Is he financially stable?
Has you been able to discuss the welfare of your child with him in an adult and mature way despite being separated or has he been difficult about things before?

Maybe if he has not been acting in the best interests of the child before by being obstructive in his dealings with you regarding your son, then the court might take that into account.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

Maybe because reality has a way of biting people in the arse

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

I understand that by posting on a public forum a person opens up to public comment matters that might ordinarily be kept private. Nonetheless, there comes a point at which MYOFB is the apposite acronym.

"Has you been able to discuss the welfare of your child with him in an adult and mature way despite being separated or has he been difficult about things before?"

Sheesh, when did he stop beating his wife?

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

I am not accusing the father of anything.
Nor am I asking for an answer on here.

Does a rhetorical question need to be flagged up so obviously, dbd33?

These are just questions that came to my mind and which the OP might consider.
The court might be interested in the wider picture.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

Wouldn't it throw into question the sanity of person wanting to move to Canada from the UK, let alone subject their children to the place? ;)

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

Carefull, thats a lot of people here you are smearing with the same brush:argue:

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

Feel free to leave at any time ;)

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

I'm just saying the court might ask why would you voluntarily leave a stable and relatively wealthy country where you have gained certain amount of cultural capital to a developing country where you don't. It all sounds a bit dodgy to me.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

Maybe the OP agreed to fund the costs of his access and has now withdrawn that offer. Who knows?

Looking at it from the child's point of view, one generally requires the non access parent to have had very little contact with the child to obtain such an Order. If both parents are involved with the child, it can never be in the child's best interest to lose huge amounts of contact with one parent, simply because of the wishes of the other parent.

In Canada, one has to obtain the other parent's permission to relocate to another Province with a child. They are called "mobility applications". They are generally considered to be one of the most difficult applications with which to achieve success in family law, unless, of course, the other parent has minimal contact with the child.

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

This makes the most sense. How can it be in the child's interest to move a long way away from one of their parents and family?

Re: Canada or the UK?
 

+1