Brexit and Canada
 

For those of you who seem to post from a more ambivalent perspective of Canada when compared to the UK, how do you feel about Canada post-Brexit? More positive towards Canada? No different?

Media is a dangerous thing, but I've found the reports of racially motivated attacks and generally unpleasant behaviour in the UK towards certain racial/social groups to be deeply unsettling and I've been wondering whether the UK's social cohension is starting to crumble at the seams, undoing decades of progress. I've always found the UK to be a less racist society than either NZ or Australia. It's not that most people here are racist. They most definitely are not. But there does seem to be a real undercurrent of real ignorance, resistance and distaste towards immigrants that are 'not the right type' IYSWIM. In the UK, whilst there were pockets of trouble, we've always worked and socialised with people from a wide variety of different ethnic/racist/religious backgrounds and always found people to be very respectful, interested in and supportive of our differences.

I'll get to the point How are things in Canadian cities, especially Toronto?

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

Toronto's not a centre for Canadian racism. Everyone in Toronto is from somewhere else so they hate whoever they hate based on quarrels from the old countries. Since there are many old countries and many feuds racism is diluted and the overall impression is of harmony.

In order to have overt and successful racism, "successful" meaning effective in causing suffering to the victims, you need to have a defined minority to persecute. Regina would be my first suggestion as a place to look for apartheid in Canada.

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

Bit of a strange question, no? Canada's multi-cultural mix marches on, mostly muddling through, successfully if slowly, Brexit or no Brexit.

Really you seem to be asking whether those who have an opinion about UK multi-culturism have changed it, post-Brexit-referendum. Why not just ask that?

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

That's not quite what I'm asking. I'm just wondering whether people have changed their view at all, perhaps viewing Canada more favouribly by comparison. Of course this will make no real difference for people who are happy and settled in Canada. But there are a number of people posting who appear to be more ambivalent and suggest that in the fullness of time they are considering a return to the UK. I'm just wondering whether Brexit has changed their view on this at all, even a little, not at all etc.

Living somewhere that is comparatively peaceful and cohensive is important to me and it's interesting to hear of peoples Canadian perspective on this. Certainly many expats down under are currently saying publically how glad they are right now, having made the decision to move well away from Europe. This is interesting to me as the one thing that keeps coming up again and again, when you ask expats what they miss about the UK, is easy access to cheap European holidays.

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

I don't think it is just the UK. The whole of Europe right now is becoming increasingly nationalist and with this comes the sort of nasty behaviors and attitudes we are seeing. The US is increasingly going this way, look at Trump.

Canada seems to embrace its multi-culturism more than I have seen in other countries, as others have said it mostly just marches on slowly without great political comment. There is some signs of increasing tensions in Vancouver right now but that is more to do with where money is coming from rather than people.

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

And the effects on the housing market.

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

this is what most people are most worried about unfortunately there is a growing trend of those who criticize where the money comes from being called racist (especially by the Provincial government, who don't want to do anything about the problem as it leads to huge party donations) and this is only making many people in Vancouver increasingly angry and breeding increased nationalist tendencies.

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

Surely the tendencies aren't "nationalist". People in Vancouver may want to stop rich Chinese people pricing them out of the housing market but the people objecting aren't of one nation and their proposed solution isn't likely to be to give Vancouver to the Canadians. The people priced out are still English or Indian or Anglo-Swiss or whatever, they're only Canadian by passport. This is one set of immigrants vs. another.

To me, objecting to foreign money treads a fine line as regards racism, in any city the foreigners with the money are likely to be from one, or a few, places; China in the case of Vancouver, Russia or the Middle East in the case of London. The objection may be legitimate, though I'd argue that, if you can't afford Monte Carlo you should move to Cap D'Antibes, or in the Canadian case from Vancouver to Regina, but the focus is racist. One may counter the racist argument by saying that it's only the rich educated Chinese who are the problem but I doubt people arguing that eagerly welcome the poor uneducated Chinese.

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

Again, the Brexit vote hasn't changed Canada itself one iota. Any UK expat who was ambivalent about Canada probably remains so, whether or not post-Brexit ethnic tensions might also make them more ambivalent about any potential return to the UK.

I doubt that will ever change... :lol::lol::lol:

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

It did cause a ten minute discussion at home on the merits of living somewhere dull. In Canada, we don't have to deal with political upheaval, excitement or drama, and one may be thankful for that; more so, perhaps, if one comes from Turkey than the UK. That said, dull is still dull, the wind may go straight through you but this is no place for the young.

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

The fact that most people can see through the issue being nationalistic doesn't mean it isn't perceived that way, especially in the lower educated/lower earners in society. Those of us with some nonce about us can see that Trump's arguments about Mexican immigration takes US jobs are nonsense but it doesn't stop a huge majority of disgruntled US citizens buying the argument. Remember the Nazi's came to power whilst Germany was a democracy, on the back of the very same attitudes.

In relation to the Vancouver housing market there is a huge difference in rich foreign investment in say commercial property and those coming to live in Vancouver and those buying and selling residential housing stock like it is stocks and shares. The system in Vancouver is broken, there is no checks and balances, no checking of the source of incomes, false declarations when buying, no tie to tax records, a BC government which tries to shut down data collection and even when it does allow it massages the figures to show there is not a problem. The BC government is one of the few jurisdictions in the world that can legally accept donations from foreign companies and individuals, so there is always going to be the question of whose interests do they represent, it is not racist to expect the government to safe guard the interests of the resident above foreign interests.

I accept your point that if you cant afford it you should look elsewhere but we are talking about 30%+ increases in property prices a year, that is unsustainable. From the articles I have read there are many young, professionals leaving BC for other provinces (BC has the highest property prices, highest student loan repayments and amongst the lowest salaries). if the city and the province isn't careful there is going be a huge brain drain from the city and Vancouver and by extension BC will become Canadas Disney land.

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

Most maybe but not "everyone". It also depends on what you mean by "somewhere else" - somewhere other than Toronto or somewhere other than Canada? A little over 50% of Torontonians were born outside Canada. That means that almost 50% of Torontonians were born in Canada. Now, of course, quite a few of those come from elsewhere in Canada but there is still a sizeable number of Torontonians who were actually born in Toronto.

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

This is how housing markets work. It's not broken, it's just a popular market at the moment. The same pricing issues pertain to beach huts at Frinton on Sea but no one (at least to my knowledge) says the government should intervene so that people who are frequent sunbathers resident in Essex can afford one.

Vancouver has a, relatively, low cost rental market so there's not even an argument that government intervention in the housing market would get people of the streets. The issue here is that immigrants from some countries can afford houses and those from others cannot, the novelty is only that those who can't afford are from Europe and not from Africa.

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

NS, S.

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

Thank God they're all still intermingling on a geographical basis, or where else would we get new Torontonians from...???

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

Yeah but Canada also hasn't suffered major Islamic terrorist attacks. The US has. Europe has. Attitudes tend to change quickly once you start to feel you're under serious threat from some of the immigrants in your country.

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

I feel like the whole Brexit drama, right from the inception of holding a referendum through to the majority of voters opting to leave, and the social and economic aftermath (some of which we have already seen, but most of which yet to come if UK really leaves) is another positive endorsement of my reasons to move out of the UK.

With regards to racism though, its true that it exists everywhere in some form or level. Canada definitely is not so bad in that respect except that we hear about an incident every now and then. Like that woman on London ON last month who punched another woman unprovoked in a retail store just cuz she was covering her head (but was shamed by the media and found and arrested the following day). The other day on a street in Calgary an educated white woman (or so she seemed) made a racist comment to a black guy who turned back and said to her I wish you didn't sleep through the class when they were teaching history. She looked quite confused by that but those in the vicinity who got the joke laughed :D

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

You've just made the OP extremely happy. Good on you.

But as you've also identified, racial issues in Canada continue to move along slooowwly...

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

Yes, but often the perpetrators aren't actually immigrants: they were born and raised in the country in question.

Gun incidents in the US are a great example of this.

But yes, like Edo says, the Brexit drama has made me feel more settled in Canada and it becomes less and less likely I'd move back to start over. My friend's 8 year old son was called the N word in the playground in the UK post Brexit. This is the kind of behaviour my father was subject to in the UK in the 1960s (my father was Asian).

S

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

You must have watched a lot of Fox News to learn the term Islamic Terrorism. Any reasonable person knows that terrorism has no religion. I have yet to come across a religion that promotes the killing of innocent people. Different values, may be; but promoting violence, no. Someone who claims to belong to a certain religion but does not understand or practice its true values yet goes on doing something bad under its name should not give the biased media an automatic right to fabricate their stories any way they wish.

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

I've been here in Vancouver now for over 10 years and I can say from my experience Vancouver is much more racist than the UK I remember ever was.

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

I never watch Fox News.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism

I agree that terrorism has nothing to do with religion but the terrorists don't see it that way - hence the term.

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

Correct but nonetheless the issue becomes viewed as an immigration problem because, even if born in the country in question, if they are Muslim then they are viewed as immigrants or as being from an immigrant family.

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

I left Vancouver in 2005 to return to the UK and I had a huge culture shock to British attitudes on my return in many ways, so it's an interesting 180 degree experience that we share.

I'm due to return on a TWP to Calgary in a couple of months and for sure one of the many factors that contributed to the final decision was the laid-back Canadian attitude (from back then anyway) compared to the now "post-Brexit" overt xenophobia and racism. It's always been there I'm sure, it just became more acceptable for many to say it out loud.

As I'm in a pro-leave area with some very old fashioned behaviour, I even Googled the most pro-remain towns in case the TWP fails to come off!

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

The problem is that some followers of some religions are not reasonable people and what they do have in common is their religion and how they see it.

In some eyes, non believers are not innocents and there are texts and leaders of certain religions who do favour killing aren't there?

Isn't part of the problem that religious teachings are full of contradictions and people get to choose, for example, whether they favour an eye for an eye or forgiveness?

Reports in the media - even the Guardian and Independent - reproduced a speech of some ISIS leader saying “If you are not able to find an IED or a bullet, then single out the disbelieving American, Frenchman or any of their allies, Smash his head with a rock, or slaughter him with a knife, or run him over with your car.”

Were those reports false or is he not a 'proper' Muslim along with the lone wolf Muslims who have followed his wishes?

I don't think it does any good to ignore what so many have in common just as it does no good to ignore what some followers of other religions do and use their religion to justify it.

You can't just say nothing to do with religion when recruitment has taken place at very specific religious centres among followers of a specific religion.

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

One of those would be my local town. The kettle's on if it comes to it. :lol:

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

I've heard stories of increased racism post brexit, one friend with the most beautiful cut-glass english accent was called chinky the other day, and a Swiss friend is going home after a dozen years.

The other relevance is pre-brexit it was essentially a European passport you had, now it's just a british one, and possibly that will reduce when the final bumps are ironed out (Scotland, NI).

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

And the police have twice announced increased racial incidents. :(

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

I 'don't feel' & couldn't give a crap about the Brexit whatever & personally see that it has zero effect on me personally or anyone else in Canada :eek:


Personally as a retired person, I see things the way that they are living in the GTA (greater Toronto area) as just fine, no issues of concern, other than the cost of living is too high (without comparing it to anywhere else) & the fact that winters are getting harder to take. At present I don't see the need to live anywhere else.

I do not worry or care about anything or anyones life in OZ, NZ, USA , UK or anywhere else.

For anyone asking the above living outside of Canada - 'whats the point'?

Then again, just maybe the question is being asked to see if Canada is a better place to live to OZ, NZ, UK - simple answer is 'how the hell would I know living in Canada';)

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

As someone who is considering moving to Canada, campaigned for Remain and is probably still in shock at what Brexit has showed me about my English campatriots, certainly moving to a place which is more centrist and liberal, and people are more relaxed about immigration, is a big plus.

That said - even if we had voted Remain I'm pretty sure we would be considering a move. We've always wanted to try living overseas somewhere (I have dual British / NZ passports). Finding somewhere that shares some of NZ's good qualities (outdoors, laidback approach to life) but where I can keep my job (as I have a global role working for an Austin, TX HQ so it'll actually be better) is the main reason.

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

I have yet to see anybody come up with a fact based account of how Brexit will impact anyone living in Canada. First of all article 50 has not been triggered and we have no idea of when and IF it will be actually triggered.

And before the ones go but my pension went down blah blah blah has this never happened before due to something happening that has impacted currency rates.
Was anyone moaning about exchange rates 5 years ago when the UK was part of the EU?

I don't expect if article 50 is triggered and the UK leaves the EU I highly doubt it will have any great impact on my ability to buy UK products within Canada or order them online.

Sorry don't really give a rats ass about Brexit.

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

The grass is just a different shade of green unless living on the Prairies from November to April where you might not see any grass due to it being covered in snow :lol:
If you want to do it then do it but you make the decision. Many came loved Canada and stayed. Many came and were not impressed and returned. Only you will know which one you could become.

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

Yes, good advice. We're not naive about this - we've seriously looked at Melbourne, Austin and France in the past and for various reasons not done it - and know it might not work. We're trying to approach it, for now, more as an adventure that might become a permanent move, rather than Paradise where everything will be perfect :-)

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

Austin is apparently quite livable, considering its in Texas. It's like, normal.

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

The moderate face of Austin:


There is, btw, relentless gun fire this evening, the dogs are scared. It's like living in Scarborough.

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

The latest reports are suggesting that British passport holders will need some kind of visa to enter European countries.
Unless they plan to waive that requirement for Canadian Citizens that will likely affect anyone living in Canada visiting mainland Europe.
Not as rapidly, no (not in my 12 years here). There was a steady decline, something that at least allows one to become accustomed.

I don't like to read about the racial incidents increasing either. Admittedly I wouldn't like reading that wherever I was living so it's not exclusive to being resident in Canada. :sneaky:

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

I've never heard gunfire in Scarbs, it's been very disappointing, though having an EMS station close by does mean we get lots of sirens in the daytime.

Luckily I still have my generator noise tapes to get me to sleep, which do have some sporadic gunfire in the background.

The paramedic I spoke to said being based in the Scarboro EMS station was much more boring than the east downtown one he's sometimes based at...

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

Well Canada recently introduced the eTA before the Brexit vote which requires citizens from all visa exempt countries except US citizens and a few others to apply for eTA before travelling to Canada. The EU hinted that they would retaliate and have the same for Canadian citizens travelling to the EU. So if using a Canadian passport to travel that is nothing to do with Brexit. Now those with UK passports but living in Canada as PR's could be forced to get one if the EU implements this if using an EU airport. I suspect that if flying direct to the UK and it has left the EU then no whatever required if using a UK passport.

As for the racial incidents well yes its becoming a problem and not just in the UK.

Re: Brexit and Canada
 

Hence my reference to visiting mainland Europe. ;)

But the surge (following the Brexit vote) was just the UK. :nod: