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Bleak Reading
Lead story on the Globe and Mail site:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...rticle1373942/ Newcomers to Canada tend to see lower wages and higher rates of involuntary part-time work, temporary jobs and over-qualification, a new study suggests. Newcomers who arrived in Canada in the past five years saw employment plummet at more than five times the rate of Canadian-born workers, partly because many work in factories, Statscan said earlier this month. Those who landed more than 10 years ago, however, saw employment gains. |
Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 8119086)
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Re: Bleak Reading
I am wondering if this is the results of a telephone survey I took part in at the end of last year ( I thought the one I did was part of a CIC survey, but maybe not).
No matter what way you read the statistics - and we all know about statistics - yes, it can feel pretty bleak. The danger, I think, is for those coming from the UK kidding themselves that all these immigrant figures won't relate to them - it's only 'those other' immigrants who don't speak English very well. Yes - I think that may have a large impact on the figures - and ability in the language is key. But it ain't everything, as many of this board will testify. :unsure: Continued good wishes to all still searching for decent employment :thumbup: |
Re: Bleak Reading
i think such gloomy observations ARE largely reflective of an immigrant's compatability to their new country; a major obstacle to such is the language barrier for the majority of most new comers to Canada.
however, no-one ever suggested moving to a new country and / or culture was ever going to be easy for anyone and aside from a few fortunate individuals, it seldom ever is. and so what would you expect?:confused: another influence to consider, is that knowing such a migration to be tricky often provokes new settlers to take the first job offered and be grateful for it. it is a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts, as articles such as the one from the OP will only ever cause people who read it, to gladly accept 'just a factory job'. but this is all part of the process and frankly it should come as little surprise to anyone who researches the pros and cons of their dreams adequately.;) |
Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by paolosmythe
(Post 8119187)
however, no-one ever suggested moving to a new country and / or culture was ever going to be easy for anyone and aside from a few fortunate individuals, it seldom ever is. and so what would you expect?:confused:
If Canada does not need skilled graduates (as indicated by the over qualification for the jobs immigrants are doing), then it should not string them along with false hope for a rosy future. If it does need skilled graduates to fill a void in the available work force then it should do all it can to ensure that the immigrants are compatible with the jobs and are paid accordingly. Is that too much to ask? |
Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by paolosmythe
(Post 8119187)
i think such gloomy observations ARE largely reflective of an immigrant's compatability to their new country; a major obstacle to such is the language barrier for the majority of most new comers to Canada.
however, no-one ever suggested moving to a new country and / or culture was ever going to be easy for anyone and aside from a few fortunate individuals, it seldom ever is. and so what would you expect?:confused: another influence to consider, is that knowing such a migration to be tricky often provokes new settlers to take the first job offered and be grateful for it. it is a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts, as articles such as the one from the OP will only ever cause people who read it, to gladly accept 'just a factory job'. but this is all part of the process and frankly it should come as little surprise to anyone who researches the pros and cons of their dreams adequately.;) It takes time to figure out how thing are done and assimilate into the culture. It pretty much took us 10 years before we felt like we were a part of Canadian society and not stuck between two shores. |
Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 8119212)
I would expect Canada, (as a progressive G8 nation that openly touts for immigrants to come here to fulfill a need), to not have such an obvious gap between the skills that need filling, and the candidates it admits to do those jobs.
If Canada does not need skilled graduates (as indicated by the over qualification for the jobs immigrants are doing), then it should not string them along with false hope for a rosy future. If it does need skilled graduates to fill a void in the available work force then it should do all it can to ensure that the immigrants are compatible with the jobs and are paid accordingly. Is that too much to ask? it seems that for your perceived 'false hope' to be remedied, the perfect employment solution needs to fall from the sky. i fear there needs to be a recognition between 'hope' and 'reasonable expectation' especially from those wanting something for nothing. |
Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 8119212)
I would expect Canada, (as a progressive G8 nation that openly touts for immigrants to come here to fulfill a need), to not have such an obvious gap between the skills that need filling, and the candidates it admits to do those jobs.
If Canada does not need skilled graduates (as indicated by the over qualification for the jobs immigrants are doing), then it should not string them along with false hope for a rosy future. If it does need skilled graduates to fill a void in the available work force then it should do all it can to ensure that the immigrants are compatible with the jobs and are paid accordingly. Is that too much to ask? The problem isn't so much the whole of Canada. It's the Provinces and the red Tape that they all put up for us to jump through. Doctors who end up burger flipping, Teachers working in Walmart. Like the Teacher working in Walmart, my own qualifications were good enough to tick all the boxes on our immigration papers. I was the principle applicant, so they're good enough for the CIC. But not good enough (or even recognized) when it comes to finding a job and working here!!!! :confused: |
Re: Bleak Reading
It will be interesting to see how the figures change if you only included immigrants from the skilled worker class, even more so in a few years when the effects of THE LIST have worked into the economy.
That said, the story pretty accurately reflects the experience of immigrants I see and meet in Vancouver. |
Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by paolosmythe
(Post 8119302)
Aside from implanting a 'career chip' (copyright Futurama) on landing, there is little a governing authority can do, to ensure those new arrivees are adequately entertained by prospective employers.
it seems that for your perceived 'false hope' to be remedied, the perfect employment solution needs to fall from the sky. i fear there needs to be a recognition between 'hope' and 'reasonable expectation' especially from those wanting something for nothing. If the stats are showing the later to be the case, then something is wrong with the supply and demand thing. Its no surprise it is what it is as the point target was lowered for political reasons a few years ago, leading to the system getting swamped with mediocre applicants (for want of a better word). Throw in the family class candidates and its no mystery why immigrants have a hard time. Worse still are cases where the government recognises qualifcaions that the work place doesnt. In those cases the government needs to face up to some harsh decisions, and either intervene in qualification ratification, or decide not to admit candidates who dont meet the provincial requirements, but there is also an element of due diligence / buyer beware in this for the candidates. Do your homework. Hopefully the new system which is more job centric will have a positive effect, but it will take a while I suspect. The whole thing has been somewhat mismanaged, and this is the consequences Im afraid. |
Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 8119212)
If Canada does not need skilled graduates (as indicated by the over qualification for the jobs immigrants are doing), then it should not string them along with false hope for a rosy future.
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Re: Bleak Reading
I was one of the fortunate ones who was offered a job in 1963.
We imediately saw an increase in both salary and what it could buy. Within 2 years we had bought our own detached bungalow and car. I could just afford to buy a small semi in the UK and couldn't afford a car. We had 2 children under 6 and in neither the UK or here in Ottawa did my wife go out to work. I feel today just as I felt those 46 years ago, we made the right move. Never for one moment did we have any regrets. The UK is to us just another country and one we have rarely visited in all those years. |
Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by JonboyE
(Post 8119331)
I am not sure where this deception takes place. I chose to immigrate. The only thing the Canadian Government promised me (or anyone else I know) was that if I didn't get a job for myself they weren't going to give me any help.
I suppose they are just looking out for Canadas interests in making sure there are enough people to support the economy, but it sucks to be in the 100 hypothetical people driving the metaphorical taxi for a living. |
Re: Bleak Reading
These overqualified/underpaid immigrant articles are as old as the hills. With or without recession they are published.
I would be interested to see a split of east and west Canada on these figures. It seems on this forum the majority of strugglers seem to be in the west. Or, this may just reflect how many chose the west of over the east. |
Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by bodgerx
(Post 8119387)
These overqualified/underpaid immigrant articles are as old as the hills. With or without recession they are published.
I would be interested to see a split of east and west Canada on these figures. It seems on this forum the majority of strugglers seem to be in the west. Or, this may just reflect how many chose the west of over the east. I think it is fair to say that more posters moving to the East are able to do so by buying a house without a mortgage (so that they can afford to live with lower earnings than those in the West) than move to the West. Other than that, I don't see a huge distinction between those that choose to move to East/West. Accepting that those that want to look at/play in the mountains tend to move to the West, whereas those that wish to own bigger houses with lots of land move to the East. Those that want neither, but wish to live in the Centre of the Universe move to Tronno and then complain about the traffic:rofl::p |
Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by joelsa
(Post 8119315)
my own qualifications were good enough to tick all the boxes on our immigration papers. I was the principle applicant, so they're good enough for the CIC. But not good enough (or even recognized) when it comes to finding a job and working here!!!!
I wonder if another tier of guidance would be workable,ie, we accept that you have a nursing degree, but if you actually wish to work as a nurse we need you to also pass these two tests before we approve you? Probably won't work at all, but something along those lines? Or impose an understanding of the system on people. If you wish to work as a nurse, are you aware before you move, that you must pass these two tests? That sounds like hand-holding, and my nursing example is simplistic. But you get what I mean.... I suspect more than a few people are simply caught out - that may or may not be their own fault. |
Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
(Post 8119413)
I have to admit that I don't get that impression from the majority of posters on this forum.
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Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by JonboyE
(Post 8119318)
It will be interesting to see how the figures change if you only included immigrants from the skilled worker class, even more so in a few years when the effects of THE LIST have worked into the economy.
One only needs to accept how difficult it is for some Canadians to transfer from one Province to another and how the Trade Unions, in effect, operate closed shops to see how hard it is for immigrants. The main difficulty I faced is the whole protectionism crap that one faces so often across Canada, that, coupled with the "You only have a certificate enabling you to sell 2" screws, therefore, we cannot allow you to sell 3" screws". It wouldn't be so bad if said certificates were difficult to obtain and, therefore, meant something. Simple fact is that every qualification I have had to obtain, every qualification that my wife and friends of ours have had to obtain to prove we are competent have been little more than, pay your money, turn up, accept boredom, take ridiculously easy exam and obtain said certification. Either the standards in Canada are very low, or the qualifications having nothing to do with meeting standards and more to do with protectionism and making sure everyone is treated the same. I honestly don't know what the answer is |
Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by bodgerx
(Post 8119454)
Do a search for vancouver, bc and job and the hits are many...
I am sure they may be, how do they compare with Halifax, nova scotia and job:p |
Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by JonboyE
(Post 8119318)
It will be interesting to see how the figures change if you only included immigrants from the skilled worker class, even more so in a few years when the effects of THE LIST have worked into the economy.
That said, the story pretty accurately reflects the experience of immigrants I see and meet in Vancouver. |
Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
(Post 8119460)
I am sure they may be, how do they compare with Halifax, nova scotia and job:p
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Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by Alan2005
(Post 8119467)
Sadly, I would expect a totally unsurprising bias based on country of origin. White UK immigrants probably do a lot better than Pakistani ones for instance.
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Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 8119477)
It was a Stats Canada study, so presumably (and i confess I haven't looked) that information is there for those that seek it?
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Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 8119484)
Probably non white ones too.... I would expect an initial bias towards english language ability, and thats one reason that after ten years the gap closes perhaps?
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Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by Alan2005
(Post 8119498)
Maybe - but I bet you don't hear stories about German immigrant PhD's driving cabs. Canadians are just as racist as any other nationality.
* or whatever the number really is |
Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 8119477)
It was a Stats Canada study, so presumably (and i confess I haven't looked) that information is there for those that seek it?
I thought we were talking about this forum? |
Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
(Post 8119513)
I thought we were talking about this forum?
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Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 8119512)
What, even the 50%* of non native english speaking Torontonians born outside Canada:sneaky:
* or whatever the number really is |
Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 8119512)
What, even the 50%* of non native english speaking Torontonians born outside Canada:sneaky:
* or whatever the number really is |
Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 8119518)
Yes, never let the real numbers get in the way of forum based conjecture;)
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Re: Bleak Reading
http://www.workpermit.com/news/2006_...economy_01.htm
As this link shows - it isn't just Canada that has this problem. Looking on the bright side, I would rather be overqualified than underqualified when applying for jobs when I get my PR. As already said - the Canadian government does not promise anything other than the opportunity to live in their country. |
Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by markbev
(Post 8119529)
http://www.workpermit.com/news/2006_...economy_01.htm
As this link shows - it isn't just Canada that has this problem. Looking on the bright side, I would rather be overqualified than underqualified when applying for jobs when I get my PR. As already said - the Canadian government does not promise anything other than the opportunity to live in their country. Peoples use of statistics reminds me of the old joke about the parachute regiment that advertised that only 50% of people saw combat. Man about to jump out of plane: "I though you said only 50% saw combat?" Sergent: "It's true, lets hope you are in the 50% whose chute actually opens". |
Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
(Post 8119513)
I thought we were talking about this forum?
Anyway, although I'm sure there have been threads started with posters stating that they are unable to find jobs in the east (I'm counting Ontario and everything east of it in this category), it seems to me that the majority of the ones started over the last year or so have been from those in either Vancouver, somewhere else in BC or Alberta. Just my observation. I'd be surprised if someone proved it wrong. |
Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 8119319)
the point target was lowered for political reasons a few years ago, leading to the system getting swamped with mediocre applicants.
Worse still are cases where the government recognises qualifcaions that the work place doesnt. In those cases the government needs to face up to some harsh decisions, and either intervene in qualification ratification, or decide not to admit candidates who dont meet the provincial requirements. |
Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 8119319)
Worse still are cases where the government recognises qualifcaions that the work place doesnt. In those cases the government needs to face up to some harsh decisions, and either intervene in qualification ratification, or decide not to admit candidates who dont meet the provincial requirements, but there is also an element of due diligence / buyer beware in this for the candidates. Do your homework.
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Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by markbev
(Post 8119529)
Looking on the bright side, I would rather be overqualified than underqualified when applying for jobs.
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Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by paolosmythe
(Post 8119915)
and in the meantime, i would sooner be unemployed in canada than in the UK :D
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Re: Bleak Reading
Originally Posted by JonboyE
(Post 8119908)
The pedant in me is bursting out again, but I don't think CIC assess qualifications, they assess levels of education.
This is basically to warn engineers or doctors from other countries that while they may qualify to come to Canada, they are not just going to be able to rock up here and start engineering or doctoring. In fairness to CIC, they know what the problems are and they put lots of warnings out there about difficulties in finding employment at same levels as home countries. Hence the new smaller list of occupations to fast-track certain skilled workers. Whether any of this will do any good is anyone's guess. After all, who comes to another country assuming it will be shite and thinking they'll under-acheive? |
Re: Bleak Reading
Wow - I'd read about getting Canadian experience etc but 10 years seems a long time to become "almost Canadian".
Coming from the north of England - where low paid jobs and crap pay is the norm for most people, I probably won't feel so badly ripped off in Canada as folk from the South-East would. And if I have to flip burgers for a while, I'll try to find a way to make it fun and turn it to my advantage. Like others have mentioned, I would like to see figures for the different provinces, rather than the whole country. And also seperate figures for English speaking and non-English speaking immigrants. They could split it down further and do it on accents. I've read articles about Asian people being told to lose their accents. What about folk from some parts of the UK who might be harder to understand? |
Re: Bleak Reading
....a related article - Canwest News Service
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