Bittersweet Christmas
Dec 27th 2008, 6:28 pm
#91
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: AB since Jan 2009!
Posts: 459
Re: Bittersweet Christmas
What do you mean by things? What quantifies a thing?
If you’re referencing the crime figures, then read the publications, as they do not state things to be getting better. Actually the crime figures for 2006-07 show: “…Crime in England and Wales remained stable during the past 12 months…”
"Another day, another set of crime figures. There are two explanations for this. Either the crime figures are just not reflecting the reality, or people's view of reality is being distorted by other influences, like media coverage of crime. That leaves one possibility: that people, fed a diet of murders, muggings and rapes in newspapers and on television, are left with the impression that crime is rocketing. It is not. The other significant finding from the British Crime Survey is that people are more fearful of anti-social behaviour than they used to be. One-third of those questioned said they were concerned about the problem of teenagers hanging around the streets in their area, an increase on the previous year. Worries about other kinds of disorder were also up slightly. All this explains why the Government is pushing through new legislation to tackle unruly children, noisy neighbours, yobs and vandals. “– BBC
What we have been discussing in this thread is the perception that the UK is deteriorating in terms of general society. The original poster is having exactly the opposite experience to the following:
“The enthusiasm for bobbies on the beat derives from the 'broken windows' idea of crime, which proposes that a place not visibly cared for becomes vulnerable. James Q. Wilson and George L. Kelling, its chief proponents, evaluated a foot patrol experiment in Washington DC and concluded that it had 'not reduced crime rates. But residents of foot-patrolled neighbourhoods seemed to feel more secure than persons in other areas, tended to believe that crime had been reduced, and seemed to take fewer steps to protect themselves from crime (staying at home with doors locked).' They also had a better opinion of the police, whose morale was higher.”
Despite police interacting, she has seen no improvement in the quality of life; to the extent she is in fact unlikely to sell her house. Whilst this may be an extreme example, the general perception is that we do not see the authorities in a position to enforce improvements. Thus the BE site is full of people wishing to move away. Again statistics are meaningless if the general population feels as though there is no improving trend.
Maybe we should be looking here: “…Since 1970 levels of poverty and wealth in different areas of Britain have changed significantly, with the country now moving back towards levels of inequality last seen more than 40 years ago.”
If you’re referencing the crime figures, then read the publications, as they do not state things to be getting better. Actually the crime figures for 2006-07 show: “…Crime in England and Wales remained stable during the past 12 months…”
"Another day, another set of crime figures. There are two explanations for this. Either the crime figures are just not reflecting the reality, or people's view of reality is being distorted by other influences, like media coverage of crime. That leaves one possibility: that people, fed a diet of murders, muggings and rapes in newspapers and on television, are left with the impression that crime is rocketing. It is not. The other significant finding from the British Crime Survey is that people are more fearful of anti-social behaviour than they used to be. One-third of those questioned said they were concerned about the problem of teenagers hanging around the streets in their area, an increase on the previous year. Worries about other kinds of disorder were also up slightly. All this explains why the Government is pushing through new legislation to tackle unruly children, noisy neighbours, yobs and vandals. “– BBC
What we have been discussing in this thread is the perception that the UK is deteriorating in terms of general society. The original poster is having exactly the opposite experience to the following:
“The enthusiasm for bobbies on the beat derives from the 'broken windows' idea of crime, which proposes that a place not visibly cared for becomes vulnerable. James Q. Wilson and George L. Kelling, its chief proponents, evaluated a foot patrol experiment in Washington DC and concluded that it had 'not reduced crime rates. But residents of foot-patrolled neighbourhoods seemed to feel more secure than persons in other areas, tended to believe that crime had been reduced, and seemed to take fewer steps to protect themselves from crime (staying at home with doors locked).' They also had a better opinion of the police, whose morale was higher.”
Despite police interacting, she has seen no improvement in the quality of life; to the extent she is in fact unlikely to sell her house. Whilst this may be an extreme example, the general perception is that we do not see the authorities in a position to enforce improvements. Thus the BE site is full of people wishing to move away. Again statistics are meaningless if the general population feels as though there is no improving trend.
Maybe we should be looking here: “…Since 1970 levels of poverty and wealth in different areas of Britain have changed significantly, with the country now moving back towards levels of inequality last seen more than 40 years ago.”
Dec 27th 2008, 6:35 pm
#92
Account Closed
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 7,284
Re: Bittersweet Christmas
Here are the Canadian Statistics
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quoti...80717b-eng.htm
....avoid BC and Saskatchewan if you want to avoid crime
and a comparison from 2004
http://www.crimereduction.homeoffice...atistics35.htm
....the results of that mean we should all move to Sweden or Switzerland.
Or this one which had crime rate for local authority regions in England and Wales
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/ia/atlas.html
...Teesdale is the place to be
or this which is a Home Office website
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/soti.html
Have fun
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quoti...80717b-eng.htm
....avoid BC and Saskatchewan if you want to avoid crime
and a comparison from 2004
http://www.crimereduction.homeoffice...atistics35.htm
....the results of that mean we should all move to Sweden or Switzerland.
Or this one which had crime rate for local authority regions in England and Wales
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/ia/atlas.html
...Teesdale is the place to be
or this which is a Home Office website
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/soti.html
Have fun
Dec 27th 2008, 6:35 pm
#93
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 520
Re: Bittersweet Christmas
Of course newspapers in the UK over sensationlise everything, what way ID cards can be brought in and then we can all truly live in fear ..
I have found with Canada/Americaen people are murdered, its santa killing ex-wife and inlaws + others wife stabs hubby, brother stabs other brother .. These people KNOW their killers ..
In England its very random .. kids walking through park, jumped on as they look different and killed .. adults telling kids to piss off and move their loutish behaviour elsewhere and being attacked and killed .. Already said it .. The UK is an angry country .. Each to their own and look after number 1 .. My son on his first year of secondary school was savagly attacked by some girl and he took it from her .. the school rang me and said that they knew Ivan would never of done anything to upset anyone but the problem is the girl comes from an abusive family so we have to be sympathetic to her ..
EXCUSE ME .. ACCOUNTABILITY .. that is what is lacking in the UK ..
I have found with Canada/Americaen people are murdered, its santa killing ex-wife and inlaws + others wife stabs hubby, brother stabs other brother .. These people KNOW their killers ..
In England its very random .. kids walking through park, jumped on as they look different and killed .. adults telling kids to piss off and move their loutish behaviour elsewhere and being attacked and killed .. Already said it .. The UK is an angry country .. Each to their own and look after number 1 .. My son on his first year of secondary school was savagly attacked by some girl and he took it from her .. the school rang me and said that they knew Ivan would never of done anything to upset anyone but the problem is the girl comes from an abusive family so we have to be sympathetic to her ..
EXCUSE ME .. ACCOUNTABILITY .. that is what is lacking in the UK ..
However, what sort of message does that send out to an already damaged child that it's ok to beat someone sensless, and get sympathy!
It can only be the direction of those PC people who live in lala land, and what would seem from this post - a different planet!
Y
Dec 27th 2008, 6:43 pm
#94
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 520
Re: Bittersweet Christmas
What do you mean by things? What quantifies a thing?
If you’re referencing the crime figures, then read the publications, as they do not state things to be getting better. Actually the crime figures for 2006-07 show: “…Crime in England and Wales remained stable during the past 12 months…”
"Another day, another set of crime figures. There are two explanations for this. Either the crime figures are just not reflecting the reality, or people's view of reality is being distorted by other influences, like media coverage of crime. That leaves one possibility: that people, fed a diet of murders, muggings and rapes in newspapers and on television, are left with the impression that crime is rocketing. It is not. The other significant finding from the British Crime Survey is that people are more fearful of anti-social behaviour than they used to be. One-third of those questioned said they were concerned about the problem of teenagers hanging around the streets in their area, an increase on the previous year. Worries about other kinds of disorder were also up slightly. All this explains why the Government is pushing through new legislation to tackle unruly children, noisy neighbours, yobs and vandals. “– BBC
What we have been discussing in this thread is the perception that the UK is deteriorating in terms of general society. The original poster is having exactly the opposite experience to the following:
“The enthusiasm for bobbies on the beat derives from the 'broken windows' idea of crime, which proposes that a place not visibly cared for becomes vulnerable. James Q. Wilson and George L. Kelling, its chief proponents, evaluated a foot patrol experiment in Washington DC and concluded that it had 'not reduced crime rates. But residents of foot-patrolled neighbourhoods seemed to feel more secure than persons in other areas, tended to believe that crime had been reduced, and seemed to take fewer steps to protect themselves from crime (staying at home with doors locked).' They also had a better opinion of the police, whose morale was higher.”
Despite police interacting, she has seen no improvement in the quality of life; to the extent she is in fact unlikely to sell her house. Whilst this may be an extreme example, the general perception is that we do not see the authorities in a position to enforce improvements. Thus the BE site is full of people wishing to move away. Again statistics are meaningless if the general population feels as though there is no improving trend.
Maybe we should be looking here: “…Since 1970 levels of poverty and wealth in different areas of Britain have changed significantly, with the country now moving back towards levels of inequality last seen more than 40 years ago.”
If you’re referencing the crime figures, then read the publications, as they do not state things to be getting better. Actually the crime figures for 2006-07 show: “…Crime in England and Wales remained stable during the past 12 months…”
"Another day, another set of crime figures. There are two explanations for this. Either the crime figures are just not reflecting the reality, or people's view of reality is being distorted by other influences, like media coverage of crime. That leaves one possibility: that people, fed a diet of murders, muggings and rapes in newspapers and on television, are left with the impression that crime is rocketing. It is not. The other significant finding from the British Crime Survey is that people are more fearful of anti-social behaviour than they used to be. One-third of those questioned said they were concerned about the problem of teenagers hanging around the streets in their area, an increase on the previous year. Worries about other kinds of disorder were also up slightly. All this explains why the Government is pushing through new legislation to tackle unruly children, noisy neighbours, yobs and vandals. “– BBC
What we have been discussing in this thread is the perception that the UK is deteriorating in terms of general society. The original poster is having exactly the opposite experience to the following:
“The enthusiasm for bobbies on the beat derives from the 'broken windows' idea of crime, which proposes that a place not visibly cared for becomes vulnerable. James Q. Wilson and George L. Kelling, its chief proponents, evaluated a foot patrol experiment in Washington DC and concluded that it had 'not reduced crime rates. But residents of foot-patrolled neighbourhoods seemed to feel more secure than persons in other areas, tended to believe that crime had been reduced, and seemed to take fewer steps to protect themselves from crime (staying at home with doors locked).' They also had a better opinion of the police, whose morale was higher.”
Despite police interacting, she has seen no improvement in the quality of life; to the extent she is in fact unlikely to sell her house. Whilst this may be an extreme example, the general perception is that we do not see the authorities in a position to enforce improvements. Thus the BE site is full of people wishing to move away. Again statistics are meaningless if the general population feels as though there is no improving trend.
Maybe we should be looking here: “…Since 1970 levels of poverty and wealth in different areas of Britain have changed significantly, with the country now moving back towards levels of inequality last seen more than 40 years ago.”
Take Tiny's post and what she puts up with, I'd like to bet she see's lots of crime on a weekly basis, but doesn't bother to report it as she knows she's flogging a dead horse.
So really, any crime figures good or bad are not accurate from the start!
Y
Dec 27th 2008, 6:47 pm
#95
Assimilated Pauper
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,018
Re: Bittersweet Christmas
You said "the last 10 years’ statistics point to violent crime reducing,". The "thing" in question here is the crime rate, crime being a bad thing a fall in the rate suggests that life is getting better. What quantifies the crime rate is the governments statistics, figures I haven't bothered to cite because, as Novo points out (with uncharacteristic linguistic clarity, remarkably free of northeastern colloquialisms) the Dog Going Lobby will just say that the government is not to be believed.
but the rate of violent crime fell. Good news surely?
I find that to be plausible. I think the converse applies here, vapid news coverage tends to make it seem that there is less crime than there is in fact.
I don't think this follows. A site about moving abroad will always be full of people who wish to move abroad. Country Gone To Dogs, Price of Houses, Bloody Climate, there will always be some reason du jour. Further, people already inclined to move tend to see the worst in the place where they are and the best in their intended destination.
One can, of course, countered a percieved increase in incivility where one is by emigrating but one must be very careful about one's destination, it's hard to see that life is worse anywhere in the UK than it is in Rexdale, for example.
One can, of course, countered a percieved increase in incivility where one is by emigrating but one must be very careful about one's destination, it's hard to see that life is worse anywhere in the UK than it is in Rexdale, for example.
Dec 27th 2008, 7:03 pm
#96
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 407
Re: Bittersweet Christmas
One of the reasons we moved from England was the yobs and kids and all that crap. We moved to Canada because we couldnt afford to move to a nicer, better area, although the area we lived in wasn't rough, a pleasant, if dull, small town in Bedfordshire.
We don't have close family ties etc so it was easy to move away. It's taken a while to settle, I hated our first house and the area we lived in. In retrospect I think I would have looked more into staying in the UK and finding a different area to live in, as on balance it has more to offer than Canada. Don't let the yobs force you out if you feel that being away from your family will be intolerable. If there is anyway you can move within the UK then you may be better off in the long run.
We don't have close family ties etc so it was easy to move away. It's taken a while to settle, I hated our first house and the area we lived in. In retrospect I think I would have looked more into staying in the UK and finding a different area to live in, as on balance it has more to offer than Canada. Don't let the yobs force you out if you feel that being away from your family will be intolerable. If there is anyway you can move within the UK then you may be better off in the long run.
There are lots of things that concern me about living in the UK as it stands now, not just the yob culture that exists, although that is impacting most on us personally.
The move is about giving our kids a better chance for the future which I believe whole heartedly the move to canada will give them.
I can't see a future in the UK for us at all in any way shape or form, yet when we were in Canada we could all see ourselves there.
There are dozens of reasons why we want to make the move, very few have been covered in these two threads and I certainly don't want to "justify myself" to anyone. Yes there is a push factor in place but there is also a huge pull factor too, not least I have two siblings out there but I also have extended family and Canada has been a major part of my life as every single year we went there as a kid, I only stopped going in my teens when I started to go to summer schools and holiday camps instead, although the rest of my family continued to go.
Yes of course it will be a wrench moving away from famiy but the perceived benefits for our children far far outweight the initial hurdles of moving away. My inlaws will see the kids growing up, with thanks to the internet, I am sure it won't be too long before we come over for holidays and somehow we hope they will come out to us too (although as they are none flyers that is going to prove challenging).
I don't think Canada is going to be "perfect" but "better" is a start, "much better" would be a huge bonus but we won't know until we give it a try, don't get me wrong I know we take ourselves with us and the grass isn't greener and all that, but, I can still see a future for our children there and hopefully our children's children, but that is for them to sort out.
As I say there are many, many, many more reasons for us to make the move, the point on anti social behaviour is the only thing I have commented on because I have been so upset by it all recently.
If that one point has opened up such long threads, if I were to list the other reasons I reckon we could fill hundreds of pages
Dec 27th 2008, 7:07 pm
#97
Born again atheist
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Europe (to be specified).
Posts: 30,259
Re: Bittersweet Christmas
This is from fledermaus' statcan link...
"Among the provinces, the highest crime rates were in Western Canada, continuing a pattern observed over the past 30 years.
Despite a 3.5% decline, Saskatchewan continued to report the highest overall crime rate, as well as the highest rate of violent crime. British Columbia had the highest property crime rate, primarily the result of a large number of thefts $5,000 and under.
For the fourth year in a row, the lowest provincial rates occurred in Ontario and Quebec....
The highest overall crime rates occurred in the western metropolitan centres of Regina, Saskatoon, Abbotsford, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Victoria and Vancouver. Toronto reported the second lowest overall crime rate among all 27 metropolitan areas.
One in five homicides in Canada occurred in Toronto in 2007. However, taking population differences into account, homicide rates were highest in Saskatoon, Winnipeg, Edmonton and Calgary."
Yet if you believed the media you'd think that Toronto was a shooting gallery and that you experience a home invasion twice a month.
"Among the provinces, the highest crime rates were in Western Canada, continuing a pattern observed over the past 30 years.
Despite a 3.5% decline, Saskatchewan continued to report the highest overall crime rate, as well as the highest rate of violent crime. British Columbia had the highest property crime rate, primarily the result of a large number of thefts $5,000 and under.
For the fourth year in a row, the lowest provincial rates occurred in Ontario and Quebec....
The highest overall crime rates occurred in the western metropolitan centres of Regina, Saskatoon, Abbotsford, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Victoria and Vancouver. Toronto reported the second lowest overall crime rate among all 27 metropolitan areas.
One in five homicides in Canada occurred in Toronto in 2007. However, taking population differences into account, homicide rates were highest in Saskatoon, Winnipeg, Edmonton and Calgary."
Yet if you believed the media you'd think that Toronto was a shooting gallery and that you experience a home invasion twice a month.
Dec 27th 2008, 7:12 pm
#98
Forum Regular
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Calgary!
Posts: 291
Re: Bittersweet Christmas
Hey there,
This is our last chrismas in the UK too, we have our LMO and set a leaving date as 28th Feb! we are renting our house out for few years until housing market picks up.
It has been very nice so far, lots of nice presents and spent time with the familys. Was very hard yesterday, mum got very upset and then i started crying !
Been ok today but tomorrow is going to be another hard day seeing more family.
Wishing everyone a very Happy christmas and a great new year.
Lisa dd
This is our last chrismas in the UK too, we have our LMO and set a leaving date as 28th Feb! we are renting our house out for few years until housing market picks up.
It has been very nice so far, lots of nice presents and spent time with the familys. Was very hard yesterday, mum got very upset and then i started crying !
Been ok today but tomorrow is going to be another hard day seeing more family.
Wishing everyone a very Happy christmas and a great new year.
Lisa dd
Dec 27th 2008, 7:15 pm
#99
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 15,883
Re: Bittersweet Christmas
I'm sure we have daily drive by shootings and at least twice weekly home invasions here in Calgary if you were to believe the media.
Dec 27th 2008, 7:21 pm
#100
Born again atheist
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Europe (to be specified).
Posts: 30,259
Re: Bittersweet Christmas
It's a wonder we aren't all thinking of emigrating.
Dec 27th 2008, 7:34 pm
#102
Oscar nominated
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Moncton, NB, CANADA
Posts: 50,852
Re: Bittersweet Christmas
Who remembers that one about drunk driving? Something along the lines of one in three accidents involve someone driving while drunk. Therefore two-thirds involve sober drivers, therefore drunk people cause fewer accidents.
Dec 27th 2008, 7:53 pm
#103
Oscar nominated
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Moncton, NB, CANADA
Posts: 50,852
Dec 27th 2008, 8:01 pm
#104
Assimilated Pauper
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,018
Re: Bittersweet Christmas
I think there are a lot of shootings in Toronto. I think there's also an awful lot of street level crime, begging at the traffic lights, prostitution, drug dealing, but then I eat at the hooker Harvey's (Jarvis and Gerrard) and so see the more colourful side of the city.
Dec 27th 2008, 8:35 pm
#105
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Sep 2005
Location: Windsor, ON
Posts: 3,374
Re: Bittersweet Christmas
Do hookers eat at Harvey's - always seems slightly more expensive than say McD's or BK to me?