mickj

You will never be disapointed in montreal, and this is coming from someone that grew up in one of the biggest cities in the world ( London ).

Sooner or later, you will be speaking french like the natives, because once you are landed, there are government sponsored courses in french, and you get paid whilst doing this.

It sure isn'nt Hicksville, or the boonies where black bares roam back gardens. I doubt if you will get a house for 50k here though


cheers

iaink

Wasnt rated #1 for quality of life by the Ontario Social Development council either, but that probably just cos its not in Ontario

You just cant leave it alone can you?

Iain

mickj

Am i missing something here, the fact that i love Montreal and all its values? It wasn't rated in the top 10 as having the best quality of life, neither was London, paris, madrid, new york and monaco.

For those brits considering Montreal, don't let the French lingo put you off, you will be having a chin wag with your neighbours before you know it. The best way to lean a language is to take yourself to that country.

I speak 3 different languages, all picked up on my travelling before going to UNI.

quebirder

My last word .....

The historical details you mentioned earlier were correct BUT I disagree with your interpretation.

Nobodies human rights are being trampled on here but the rights of francophones to keep their culture was once going down the pan because of anglo attitudes - when surrounded byy 250 million anglophones on this continent thay just had to put up some defences. If the position was reversed I guarantee anglophones would have done the same.

If you want service in English you can ALWAYS get it - without exception. I live here, I know.

oceanMDX

Of course the right to freedom of speech is being violated in Quebec. I know that as a fact, because the Supreme Court of Canada says so!

As I already stated in a prior post, before the "Quiet Revolution" in Quebec, Francophones essentially were second class citizens. That situation was wrong, but two wrongs don't make a right. No state has ever advanced democracy by violating the rights of its minority residents.

Economically, Montreal used to be Canada's most powerful city. Largely thanks to the mass exodus of Anglophones from Montreal to Toronto in the 1970s, Toronto quickly surpassed Montreal in economic importance. Since then, Quebec has firmly established itself as Canada's largest "have-not" province. It consistently has had high unemployment and welfare rates; and its per capita GDP is only about 80 % of the Canadian average. This despite billions of dollars in subsidies directed to Quebec business and billions more dollars given to the Quebec Government in the form of equalization payments.

A further injustice was then levelled at the Anglophones who felt the need to leave Quebec because of Bill 101, when a portion of their taxes when back to Quebec in the form of theses equalization payments, part of which went to enforce the policies that were discriminatory.

You say that an Anglophone can alway get service in English - "without exception"? That's not what this study says:

http://www.qfaqyf.org/escc/accesstocareinEnglish.htm

In 2001, The Missisquoi Institute released polling data from the firm CROP on English-language health and social services in each region of Quebec. This data confirms that about 90,000 English-speaking Quebecers live in regions where their access to English-language health and social services is extremely limited.

You purport that if the situation was reversed, the Anglophones would have done the same. That is false. In Quebec, the situation is reversed - from before the "Quiet Revolution" - so that now the Anglophones are the ones discriminated against. The Anglo culture is threatened in Quebec, and the Anglo percentage of the population has been diminishing for decades. Yet Anglophones in the rest of the country have done nothing but watch it all happen as more and more Anglos have left; except ship more money to Quebec so it can continue to pay for its social services.

Of course, we are all entitled to our own opinion. However, opinions are best when they are based on all of the facts rather than on a sanitized narrow selection of them as presented by those - friends or not - who have personally benefitted from the discriminatory status quo.

quebirder

I'm sorry - but I live here, have done for some years. I have never been refused service in English. Period.

There are a number, thankfully diminishing, of red-neck anglos here who "insist on their right" to service in English and throw a fit if the person they are dealing with is less than fluent but I can honestly say that they are looking for trouble to make a political point - the same one you keep making.

Look - if you go to Germany where German is the languager of the majority you expect to have to speak German, ditto Spanish in Spain and Arabic in Cairo. In Quebec the majority language is French and because of that the system is set up to work in French. Nevertheless, as a resident if I want my local tax bill in English I can have it, if I want my electricity bill in English I can have it, if I want to order a steak and a beer in English it isn't a problem.

I admit that there are backwoods areas where the locals mostly do not speak English and so if you visit ort live there you may find it harder to get English language services but it is no more impossible than for a francophone in an equivalently backwoods area of Alberta.

You know what the trick is? You smile and make an attempt at French. You say "Bonjour. Je ne parle pas le francais. Pourrions nous parler en anglais" ........ and away you go. Everyone is happy. It's called good manners.

There are conflicting rights here - your right to speak English everywhere and their right to defend their culture. The consensus here (amongst both anglophones and francophones - hotheads on both sides excluded) is that the present system, Bill 101 and all, works just fine.

flashman

Remember that Canada is a Confederation and the various provinces have a greater degree of autonomy than the countries within the "United Kingdom". It is highly unlikely that Scotland would be permitted to make Gaelic the "Official Language" .

oceanMDX

So you know more than any study? That says more about you than about the availability of Constitutionally guaranteed rights to Government services in English. Do you have any references to back up your claims?

When someone demands that their language rights - as guaranteed under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms - be respected by the Government of Quebec, it is rather outrageous to label them as a "red-neck" as you put it. We're not referring to getting service at a gas station and expecting someone to provide service in English here. We're only talking about Constitutionally guaranteed rights. I'm sure that you wouldn't have any difficulty receiving your bills in English.

Your idea about how a unilingual Anglophone should present himself to a Quebecois is a very good one; it's the same everywhere else, including here in Mexico.

Whether or not one can get services in English (or French) in the backwoods of Canada is not the issue here. The issue is, are services (in English or French) available where they are Constitutionally mandated? In Quebec - which has spent the last 40 years making political statements - this often isn't the case.

Since providing Constitutionally guaranteed services in English, would in no way threaten the French language/culture in Quebec, there are no conflicting rights here. I don't expect that Quebec should provide services in English "everywhere" - just where they are guaranteed by the Charter. The Quebec Government may do what it wants to protect French - they just shouldn't do it by violating minority rights.

You didn't provide a reference to support your claim that there is a "general consensus" that the status quo in Quebec vis-a-vis language rights is just fine - I can understand why. I rather doubt that the Anglophones are okay with Quebec's use of the "notwithstanding clause" in the Constitution to take away their freedoms.

mickj

Alright calm down people
:lecture:

You both have your valid points, i guess you can compare Switzerland to this arguement you are having. They are English/Deutsche/French speaking, and they seem to get along just fine over there from what i experienced there.

Is there a survey that says they (quebec govt ) are not doing what they are supposed to be doing in terms of the chater?

oceanMDX

Anglophones have taken Quebec all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada (and won their case) to force the Government of Quebec to respect their rights under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms - which is part of the Constitution Act, 1982:

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/const/a...html#education

It is very important to understand that our Constitution is the highest law in the land, so any other law that violates its principles can be stuck down by a court. However, it is also very important to understand that there is a provision in the Constitution called the "nothwithstanding clause". In effect, this allows - for a period of 5 years - a Provincial Government (Quebec) to violate rights (of its residents) guaranteed under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. That is exactly what Quebec did when it lost its case in the Supreme Court of Canada - it invoked the "nothwithstanding clause". When the 5 years are up, Quebec will have to decide if it wants to invoke the "notwithstanding clause" again. :lecture:

Just as Quebec has the prerogative to protect the French language in Quebec, Anglophones in that Province have the right (under the Canadian Constitution) to protect theirs.

It's sad that Quebec has chosen to violate minority language rights with language police and all.

alan dell

[People say that Vancouver has a higher crime rate does this include areas such as Langley and White Rock. Once we received our visas my inclination was straight for Vancouver (coastland and mountains). However after reading such negative views I am considering Oakville or Peterborough Ontario. Having job opportunities at both. Can any body shed any light on these areas. What I have seen of Peterborough via the web it looks a lovely area. Is it in reality?

iaink

I wouldnt take the negative press that seriously. Sure there are problems in vancouver, but they seem to be fairly well defined and isolated to a particular area / type of person. Every major city has these issues. Major prob in vancouver is housing is expensive by canadian levels, and salaries a little lower, but on the positive side the winter is a lot less harsh, although there are probably fewer "sunny" days. IMO the winter in Ontario is not as scary as a lot of people think it will be when they come, but then I've been here a while and probably forgotten how bad it seemed as a newcomer.....Of course if you are still digging out on the East coast........

As far as Oakville and Peterborough go, I would say oakville is a little more industrial, in nature, and is a little more expensive property wise, but i dont know it particularly well, other than for the huge Ford van and truck plant there by the QEW.

Peterborough is nice enough, a little more "provincial" if you know what i mean, but its large enough to cater to most takes. Reminds me of Bedford UK for some reason, probably because of the size of the place and the river aspect, and general atmosphere of middle class middle of the road. In my case its the nearest place to me that has half decent indian food, not great by OK! We have friends live there who like it, and there is a half decent college (Trent Uni). It is also convenient for the Kawartha Lakes area, but being a little further from lake Ontario gets a little colder in the winter, not a huge amount though. Lots of countryside not far from the center as well if you dont want to live in suburbia. I dont know of any nasty hidden underbelly!

When all is said and done I would definately try and visit both areas before deciding if you can, as in a forum like this, what one person likes, another may not stand. Definitely no mountains in either case, and I dont think the shores of lake ontario are quite the same as the Pacific coast! What other type of stuff are you looking for in a hometown?

Iain

quebirder

As I said - I speak from six years experience living here - but you only have to read the local press, listen to the radio (both languages) etc.

It was a federal politician who invented the Notwithstanding Clause, not a Quebec one.

But it's true, if you ask for service in English then you will get it - government offices, police, hospitals. Sometimes, out in the sticks, they may need to hunt around for someone fluent enough in English but that's rare. They do their best as individuals to help.

Please don't demonise the people of Quebec - they are a pretty nice bunch. And why would you insist on your RIGHTS when you could just try to be as accomodating as most people here are? Curious.

End of discussion (for me).

oceanMDX

The federal politician who you are referring to is Jean Chretien, he was Minister of Justice, and he came up with the "Notwithstanding Clause". Jean Chretien is a Quebecker, who was elected by Quebeckers. You were saying?

No one is "demonising" the people of Quebec only the policies of the Government of Quebec and the attitudes that they have fostered. You have mentioned how accommodating the people of Quebec are, but many have told me otherwise. In fact a friend of mine - Danny - is a Quebecker from the Gaspe area. At 18, when Danny joined the Canadian Army, he barely spoke a word of English (according to him). He learned English when he was transferred to Alberta. After his stint in the military, he decided to reside in Calgary because he loved it there. A few years later, Danny married a Calgary girl. Due to the fact that his parent's health was deteriorating, he decided to move to Montreal to be closer to them; despite the excellent income his job in sales was providing. I kept in touch with Danny for sometime after his move back to Quebec. Although his wife was making significant progress in her ability to speak French, Danny mentioned that he was getting more than annoyed with the snotty attitude that some retail clerks had toward his wife because of her lack of fluency in French. Once Danny became so engaged at the treatment that his wife was receiving, he told the clerk to "****-off" before leaving the store. It was that bad. Danny was so put off by the attitude that his wife was having to come up against, that he was considering moving back to Calgary. Don't forget, Danny is as "Quebecois" as anyone in Quebec, his family goes back several hundred years there. Danny is very fluent in English, but has an obvious French accent. Danny didn't have the problems in so called "red-neck" Alberta, that his wife - who was making every effort to communicate in French - had in Montreal.

You can report your own personal experiences in Quebec as being positive, that's great and I'm happy for you; but I can counter what you say with dozens of reports from others those experiences weren't so positive.

CalgaryAMC

My father-in-law says he was given a hard time in Montreal because he couldn't speak French. Can't verify it myself, never spent any time there.