Any good threats I can use?
Apr 23rd 2005, 1:49 pm
#1
Just Joined
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: Plymouth Devon
Posts: 20
Any good threats I can use?
Hi all, question for you
we are still in the 'gathering info/documents stage' and already i'm a blithering mess watching the door mat and the application hasnt even gone in yet!! :scared:
Problem is, have sent of requests for confirmation of employment, details ect to previous employers and have heard back from all except 2 who we know are still trading/in business.that was nearly 4 weeks ago.
Was going to send of a copy with a 'nice' reminder, but was interested what would we say/request if we did have to start getting heavy? are they obliged to give us this info? what do we do if they dont respond? anyone else had this problem?
There is no reason why they would withhold the stuff, we parted company on good terms so there's no nasty sackings/dodgy stuff that would cause a problem and one company does have the stuff cause they have to keep all records for at least 10 years (I worked for them 6yrs ago)
Any advice gratefully recieved
Kaz
we are still in the 'gathering info/documents stage' and already i'm a blithering mess watching the door mat and the application hasnt even gone in yet!! :scared:
Problem is, have sent of requests for confirmation of employment, details ect to previous employers and have heard back from all except 2 who we know are still trading/in business.that was nearly 4 weeks ago.
Was going to send of a copy with a 'nice' reminder, but was interested what would we say/request if we did have to start getting heavy? are they obliged to give us this info? what do we do if they dont respond? anyone else had this problem?There is no reason why they would withhold the stuff, we parted company on good terms so there's no nasty sackings/dodgy stuff that would cause a problem and one company does have the stuff cause they have to keep all records for at least 10 years (I worked for them 6yrs ago)
Any advice gratefully recieved
Kaz
Apr 23rd 2005, 2:20 pm
#2
Lotus-eater
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: Cascadian Autonomous Elysian Region
Posts: 5,069
Re: Any good threats I can use?
Data protection act: you are entitled to know what data they hold on you, including old job descrioptions, any personnel files, references, etc. But, as an ex employee, they could quite easily say they now hold nothing about you.
For references, you should be able to access a BASIC reference by law - this is UK employment law basics and any search on the TUC or other union or employment law website will give you the correct piece of legislation on which that is based. i.e. they HAVE to confirm when (start-finish) you were employed, in what role, but that is really about all they legally HAVE to provide. So, that is better than nowt ! Old payslips, or proof of payment of wages into your bank account (you'll prob have to pay for copies of old statements, I paid £10 for 5 year old statements) will help if you really do struggle.
It took me 12 months and a strongly worded letter to the MD of my previous employer of ten years to get references/proof of employment, as the line gimps I was dealing with never replied. State of the place, indeed !!! But I got it and sent on to CIC after our application was submitted.
Rich.
For references, you should be able to access a BASIC reference by law - this is UK employment law basics and any search on the TUC or other union or employment law website will give you the correct piece of legislation on which that is based. i.e. they HAVE to confirm when (start-finish) you were employed, in what role, but that is really about all they legally HAVE to provide. So, that is better than nowt ! Old payslips, or proof of payment of wages into your bank account (you'll prob have to pay for copies of old statements, I paid £10 for 5 year old statements) will help if you really do struggle.
It took me 12 months and a strongly worded letter to the MD of my previous employer of ten years to get references/proof of employment, as the line gimps I was dealing with never replied. State of the place, indeed !!! But I got it and sent on to CIC after our application was submitted.
Rich.
Apr 23rd 2005, 2:41 pm
#3
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Posts: 4,104
Re: Any good threats I can use?
Have you tried phoning the companies ? If they're ignoring letters then a polite call to the HR people should get them moving.
Note that you probably only need references for the last ten years, and you can provide some proof of employment by asking the Inland Revenue for a printout of your tax and national insurance records under the Data Protection Act. What that won't do is prove that you did the work you claimed to have done, but if you have enough documented work for other companies then it may be enough to satisfy them: after all, you only need four years experience in the last ten to qualify for the full points score, beyond that just proof that you've been working in the UK for the other years may do.
I got references for the two companies other than the current one (don't want to put myself at the top of the redundancy list if they sack anyone again) that I worked for in the last ten years, added the IR printout, P45s, P60s, payslips, business letters, etc, and that was at least enough to get past the AoR stage.
From talking to other people who've got their PR visas, it does seem that the CHC staff are actually human and do understand that people can have problems finding this kind of information.
Ah, here's the Inland Revenue page if you need to get that info from them:
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/leaflets/cop21.htm
? If they're ignoring letters then a polite call to the HR people should get them moving.Note that you probably only need references for the last ten years, and you can provide some proof of employment by asking the Inland Revenue for a printout of your tax and national insurance records under the Data Protection Act. What that won't do is prove that you did the work you claimed to have done, but if you have enough documented work for other companies then it may be enough to satisfy them: after all, you only need four years experience in the last ten to qualify for the full points score, beyond that just proof that you've been working in the UK for the other years may do.
I got references for the two companies other than the current one (don't want to put myself at the top of the redundancy list if they sack anyone again
) that I worked for in the last ten years, added the IR printout, P45s, P60s, payslips, business letters, etc, and that was at least enough to get past the AoR stage.From talking to other people who've got their PR visas, it does seem that the CHC staff are actually human and do understand that people can have problems finding this kind of information
.Ah, here's the Inland Revenue page if you need to get that info from them:
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/leaflets/cop21.htm
Last edited by MarkG; Apr 23rd 2005 at 2:46 pm.
Apr 23rd 2005, 3:30 pm
#4
Forum Regular
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 43
Re: Any good threats I can use?
Unfortunately there is no legal requirement for an employer to provide a reference for a current or past employee except:
• in industries where regulating bodies impose a specific duty to provide a reference, and
• if failure to provide a reference may lead to a victimisation claim under Sex Discrimination/Race Relations/Disability legislation.
Under current Data protection act if your employment finished >6 years ago then chances are personel will have destroyed your records since it is 'recommended' they are kept for only this period.
Just use any evidence you can gather. Your full tax record, which is obtainable from the tax office under DPA, should include all the basics.
Other than that, as has been said, the people at CHC do understand these difficulties, try not to worry to much. If they reslly want further info they'll ask for it at IA.
Good luck
Jon
• in industries where regulating bodies impose a specific duty to provide a reference, and
• if failure to provide a reference may lead to a victimisation claim under Sex Discrimination/Race Relations/Disability legislation.
Under current Data protection act if your employment finished >6 years ago then chances are personel will have destroyed your records since it is 'recommended' they are kept for only this period.
Just use any evidence you can gather. Your full tax record, which is obtainable from the tax office under DPA, should include all the basics.
Other than that, as has been said, the people at CHC do understand these difficulties, try not to worry to much. If they reslly want further info they'll ask for it at IA.
Good luck
Jon
Apr 23rd 2005, 6:54 pm
#5
Lotus-eater
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: Cascadian Autonomous Elysian Region
Posts: 5,069
Re: Any good threats I can use?
From worksmart.org.uk:
My employer refuses to give me a satisfactory reference, what should I do?
The law relating to the provision of references is developing and somewhat confusing. A conventional view is that, except for certain jobs in the financial field, an employer is not legally required to provide a reference to a new employer.
However, there may be an implied duty, especially where it is customary to supply a reference in a particular industry or for particular types of employee. In addition it is now clear that failure to provide a reference as a form of retaliation, because an employee has used, or threatened to use, the law against the employer, may be victimization and thus lead to an award against the employer under discrimination law.
Where a reference is given the employer has an implied duty of care to both the former employee and the prospective employer. Thus the reference must be accurate and compiled with care, otherwise a civil case for negligence might ensue. This obviously means that matters which are not favourable to the ex-employee may be included in the reference.
__________________________________________________ ______________
Giving references
Recent court cases have upheld a previous House of Lords ruling that the author of a reference owes a duty of care to the person about whom it is written. It had already been established that the employer may be liable for damages to that person if loss is caused through negligence, as well as in cases of defamation where the employer was motivated by malice. It is now clear that the employer also has a duty of care to the employee to be accurate and fair in the giving of a reference (this includes not giving a misleading impression even if individual components of a reference are accurate). This does not mean, however, that the reference has to be full and comprehensive. It has also been established that the employer breaches a fundamental duty to the employee if he/she discloses in a reference complaints of which the employee is unaware, thus enabling the employee to resign and claim constructive (unfair) dismissal.
The House of Lords has recently ruled that a detriment suffered after the termination of employment can constitute unlawful discrimination under the sex, race, and disability legislation, and that ex-employees could pursue claims based on such detriment. The implication of this is that employers should take as much care in thier dealings with ex-employees as they do with current employees and job applicants. Detrimental action, such as refusal to provide a reference, based on sex, race, disability, or the fact that an individual has brought a discrimination claim against the employer, may result in a claim for discrimination.
A reference may ask for the confirmation of statements made in a job application, or ask for opinions as to the candidate's suitability for the post. It is important in responding to such queries, and in general in giving a reference, to ensure that:
any statements in the reference are factually accurate and the overall impression is not misleading;
any opinions are clearly stated as opinions and are based on verifiable facts;
Emotive and highly coloured language is avoided, especially if the comments are negative;
the employee has been made fully aware of any complaints or negative comments which are included, and that other appropriate management action has been taken in such cases;
the reference is given by someone who is qualified to give such opinions.
Advice on good practice from the DTI suggests that employers should be as open as possible about references. It is strongly advised that you do not write anything in a reference which you would not wish the subject of the reference to see.
In giving references there is also a duty of care to the potential employer seeking the reference, and relevant and material facts and information should be truthfully disclosed, especially where problems or difficulties have been experienced with the candidate's conduct or capability (as stated above, the candidate must have been made fully aware of such problems or difficulties).
Confidentiality of references under the 1998 Data Protection Act
References written by an organisation for the purposes of employment are specifically excluded from the rights to access established by the Act, in the sense that employees are not entitled to have access, through their own employer, to any employment reference given, or to be given, in confidence by that employer. However, once the reference has been received by the organisation requesting it, it is in principle accessible through that employer. In other words individuals can apply to see references given by you, through the other employer, and to see references given to you, through you. None the less, if a reference has been received on a confidential basis the recipient must act reasonably in deciding whether or not to give access; the consent of the referee should be sought and if this is refused the recipient may refuse access. Access may also be refused if the reference mentions another identifiable individual who has not consented to the disclosure unless it is practicable to anonymise the material.
Those writing references should ensure that the references they give are clearly marked "strictly confidential" if they do not wish the subject to have automatic right of access; and those seeking references should ensure that referees are informed that the references they provide will be regarded as disclosable unless they mark their references 'strictly confidential', in which case the recipient will judge whether a duty of confidentiality exists. This is likely to be the case where the referee has made it clear that he/she would not wish the subject of the reference to have access. However, the subject of a reference has the right of appeal to the Information Commissioner who may, in some circumstances, compel disclosure, so it should never be assumed that confidentiality can be guaranteed absolutely.
The latest guidance from the Information Commissioner, while allowing refusal to disclose confidential references, suggests a wish for greater openness, and it is possible that at some future point it may be decreed that the duty owed to the reference subject is more important than that owed to the writer, and that therefore confidential references will have to be disclosed.
My employer refuses to give me a satisfactory reference, what should I do?
The law relating to the provision of references is developing and somewhat confusing. A conventional view is that, except for certain jobs in the financial field, an employer is not legally required to provide a reference to a new employer.
However, there may be an implied duty, especially where it is customary to supply a reference in a particular industry or for particular types of employee. In addition it is now clear that failure to provide a reference as a form of retaliation, because an employee has used, or threatened to use, the law against the employer, may be victimization and thus lead to an award against the employer under discrimination law.
Where a reference is given the employer has an implied duty of care to both the former employee and the prospective employer. Thus the reference must be accurate and compiled with care, otherwise a civil case for negligence might ensue. This obviously means that matters which are not favourable to the ex-employee may be included in the reference.
__________________________________________________ ______________
Giving references
Recent court cases have upheld a previous House of Lords ruling that the author of a reference owes a duty of care to the person about whom it is written. It had already been established that the employer may be liable for damages to that person if loss is caused through negligence, as well as in cases of defamation where the employer was motivated by malice. It is now clear that the employer also has a duty of care to the employee to be accurate and fair in the giving of a reference (this includes not giving a misleading impression even if individual components of a reference are accurate). This does not mean, however, that the reference has to be full and comprehensive. It has also been established that the employer breaches a fundamental duty to the employee if he/she discloses in a reference complaints of which the employee is unaware, thus enabling the employee to resign and claim constructive (unfair) dismissal.
The House of Lords has recently ruled that a detriment suffered after the termination of employment can constitute unlawful discrimination under the sex, race, and disability legislation, and that ex-employees could pursue claims based on such detriment. The implication of this is that employers should take as much care in thier dealings with ex-employees as they do with current employees and job applicants. Detrimental action, such as refusal to provide a reference, based on sex, race, disability, or the fact that an individual has brought a discrimination claim against the employer, may result in a claim for discrimination.
A reference may ask for the confirmation of statements made in a job application, or ask for opinions as to the candidate's suitability for the post. It is important in responding to such queries, and in general in giving a reference, to ensure that:
any statements in the reference are factually accurate and the overall impression is not misleading;
any opinions are clearly stated as opinions and are based on verifiable facts;
Emotive and highly coloured language is avoided, especially if the comments are negative;
the employee has been made fully aware of any complaints or negative comments which are included, and that other appropriate management action has been taken in such cases;
the reference is given by someone who is qualified to give such opinions.
Advice on good practice from the DTI suggests that employers should be as open as possible about references. It is strongly advised that you do not write anything in a reference which you would not wish the subject of the reference to see.
In giving references there is also a duty of care to the potential employer seeking the reference, and relevant and material facts and information should be truthfully disclosed, especially where problems or difficulties have been experienced with the candidate's conduct or capability (as stated above, the candidate must have been made fully aware of such problems or difficulties).
Confidentiality of references under the 1998 Data Protection Act
References written by an organisation for the purposes of employment are specifically excluded from the rights to access established by the Act, in the sense that employees are not entitled to have access, through their own employer, to any employment reference given, or to be given, in confidence by that employer. However, once the reference has been received by the organisation requesting it, it is in principle accessible through that employer. In other words individuals can apply to see references given by you, through the other employer, and to see references given to you, through you. None the less, if a reference has been received on a confidential basis the recipient must act reasonably in deciding whether or not to give access; the consent of the referee should be sought and if this is refused the recipient may refuse access. Access may also be refused if the reference mentions another identifiable individual who has not consented to the disclosure unless it is practicable to anonymise the material.
Those writing references should ensure that the references they give are clearly marked "strictly confidential" if they do not wish the subject to have automatic right of access; and those seeking references should ensure that referees are informed that the references they provide will be regarded as disclosable unless they mark their references 'strictly confidential', in which case the recipient will judge whether a duty of confidentiality exists. This is likely to be the case where the referee has made it clear that he/she would not wish the subject of the reference to have access. However, the subject of a reference has the right of appeal to the Information Commissioner who may, in some circumstances, compel disclosure, so it should never be assumed that confidentiality can be guaranteed absolutely.
The latest guidance from the Information Commissioner, while allowing refusal to disclose confidential references, suggests a wish for greater openness, and it is possible that at some future point it may be decreed that the duty owed to the reference subject is more important than that owed to the writer, and that therefore confidential references will have to be disclosed.
Apr 23rd 2005, 7:24 pm
#6
Just Joined
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: Plymouth Devon
Posts: 20
Re: Any good threats I can use?
THANK YOU so so much for all that information, knew i could count on you guys!
That was so much more info than I expected and is extremely helpful, Rich, if you'r not a researcher/lawyer/citizens advocate, then your talents are wasted!?
I will try a phone call to each of them, a very polite one of course, then a 'gentle' reminder! then it will be hard stuff!! pulling out all the Data Protection stuff etc you have so kindly supplied!!
Something very interesting I did not realise, we could send of application with other proofs (we DO have wage slips) and send these letters of confirmation and/or references later. We didnt know we could do that!! I had visions of not even getting to AOR stage till next year at this rate!
Thanks again all, karma all round
Kaz
That was so much more info than I expected and is extremely helpful, Rich, if you'r not a researcher/lawyer/citizens advocate, then your talents are wasted!?
I will try a phone call to each of them, a very polite one of course, then a 'gentle' reminder! then it will be hard stuff!! pulling out all the Data Protection stuff etc you have so kindly supplied!!
Something very interesting I did not realise, we could send of application with other proofs (we DO have wage slips) and send these letters of confirmation and/or references later. We didnt know we could do that!! I had visions of not even getting to AOR stage till next year at this rate!
Thanks again all, karma all round
Kaz
Apr 24th 2005, 9:29 am
#7
Forum Regular
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 43
Re: Any good threats I can use?
Originally Posted by Rich_007
From worksmart.org.uk:
My employer refuses to give me a satisfactory reference, what should I do?
The law relating to the provision of references is developing and somewhat confusing. A conventional view is that, except for certain jobs in the financial field, an employer is not legally required to provide a reference to a new employer.
However, there may be an implied duty, especially where it is customary to supply a reference in a particular industry or for particular types of employee. In addition it is now clear that failure to provide a reference as a form of retaliation, because an employee has used, or threatened to use, the law against the employer, may be victimization and thus lead to an award against the employer under discrimination law.
Where a reference is given the employer has an implied duty of care to both the former employee and the prospective employer. Thus the reference must be accurate and compiled with care, otherwise a civil case for negligence might ensue. This obviously means that matters which are not favourable to the ex-employee may be included in the reference.
__________________________________________________ ______________
Giving references
Recent court cases have upheld a previous House of Lords ruling that the author of a reference owes a duty of care to the person about whom it is written. It had already been established that the employer may be liable for damages to that person if loss is caused through negligence, as well as in cases of defamation where the employer was motivated by malice. It is now clear that the employer also has a duty of care to the employee to be accurate and fair in the giving of a reference (this includes not giving a misleading impression even if individual components of a reference are accurate). This does not mean, however, that the reference has to be full and comprehensive. It has also been established that the employer breaches a fundamental duty to the employee if he/she discloses in a reference complaints of which the employee is unaware, thus enabling the employee to resign and claim constructive (unfair) dismissal.
The House of Lords has recently ruled that a detriment suffered after the termination of employment can constitute unlawful discrimination under the sex, race, and disability legislation, and that ex-employees could pursue claims based on such detriment. The implication of this is that employers should take as much care in thier dealings with ex-employees as they do with current employees and job applicants. Detrimental action, such as refusal to provide a reference, based on sex, race, disability, or the fact that an individual has brought a discrimination claim against the employer, may result in a claim for discrimination.
A reference may ask for the confirmation of statements made in a job application, or ask for opinions as to the candidate's suitability for the post. It is important in responding to such queries, and in general in giving a reference, to ensure that:
any statements in the reference are factually accurate and the overall impression is not misleading;
any opinions are clearly stated as opinions and are based on verifiable facts;
Emotive and highly coloured language is avoided, especially if the comments are negative;
the employee has been made fully aware of any complaints or negative comments which are included, and that other appropriate management action has been taken in such cases;
the reference is given by someone who is qualified to give such opinions.
Advice on good practice from the DTI suggests that employers should be as open as possible about references. It is strongly advised that you do not write anything in a reference which you would not wish the subject of the reference to see.
In giving references there is also a duty of care to the potential employer seeking the reference, and relevant and material facts and information should be truthfully disclosed, especially where problems or difficulties have been experienced with the candidate's conduct or capability (as stated above, the candidate must have been made fully aware of such problems or difficulties).
Confidentiality of references under the 1998 Data Protection Act
References written by an organisation for the purposes of employment are specifically excluded from the rights to access established by the Act, in the sense that employees are not entitled to have access, through their own employer, to any employment reference given, or to be given, in confidence by that employer. However, once the reference has been received by the organisation requesting it, it is in principle accessible through that employer. In other words individuals can apply to see references given by you, through the other employer, and to see references given to you, through you. None the less, if a reference has been received on a confidential basis the recipient must act reasonably in deciding whether or not to give access; the consent of the referee should be sought and if this is refused the recipient may refuse access. Access may also be refused if the reference mentions another identifiable individual who has not consented to the disclosure unless it is practicable to anonymise the material.
Those writing references should ensure that the references they give are clearly marked "strictly confidential" if they do not wish the subject to have automatic right of access; and those seeking references should ensure that referees are informed that the references they provide will be regarded as disclosable unless they mark their references 'strictly confidential', in which case the recipient will judge whether a duty of confidentiality exists. This is likely to be the case where the referee has made it clear that he/she would not wish the subject of the reference to have access. However, the subject of a reference has the right of appeal to the Information Commissioner who may, in some circumstances, compel disclosure, so it should never be assumed that confidentiality can be guaranteed absolutely.
The latest guidance from the Information Commissioner, while allowing refusal to disclose confidential references, suggests a wish for greater openness, and it is possible that at some future point it may be decreed that the duty owed to the reference subject is more important than that owed to the writer, and that therefore confidential references will have to be disclosed.
My employer refuses to give me a satisfactory reference, what should I do?
The law relating to the provision of references is developing and somewhat confusing. A conventional view is that, except for certain jobs in the financial field, an employer is not legally required to provide a reference to a new employer.
However, there may be an implied duty, especially where it is customary to supply a reference in a particular industry or for particular types of employee. In addition it is now clear that failure to provide a reference as a form of retaliation, because an employee has used, or threatened to use, the law against the employer, may be victimization and thus lead to an award against the employer under discrimination law.
Where a reference is given the employer has an implied duty of care to both the former employee and the prospective employer. Thus the reference must be accurate and compiled with care, otherwise a civil case for negligence might ensue. This obviously means that matters which are not favourable to the ex-employee may be included in the reference.
__________________________________________________ ______________
Giving references
Recent court cases have upheld a previous House of Lords ruling that the author of a reference owes a duty of care to the person about whom it is written. It had already been established that the employer may be liable for damages to that person if loss is caused through negligence, as well as in cases of defamation where the employer was motivated by malice. It is now clear that the employer also has a duty of care to the employee to be accurate and fair in the giving of a reference (this includes not giving a misleading impression even if individual components of a reference are accurate). This does not mean, however, that the reference has to be full and comprehensive. It has also been established that the employer breaches a fundamental duty to the employee if he/she discloses in a reference complaints of which the employee is unaware, thus enabling the employee to resign and claim constructive (unfair) dismissal.
The House of Lords has recently ruled that a detriment suffered after the termination of employment can constitute unlawful discrimination under the sex, race, and disability legislation, and that ex-employees could pursue claims based on such detriment. The implication of this is that employers should take as much care in thier dealings with ex-employees as they do with current employees and job applicants. Detrimental action, such as refusal to provide a reference, based on sex, race, disability, or the fact that an individual has brought a discrimination claim against the employer, may result in a claim for discrimination.
A reference may ask for the confirmation of statements made in a job application, or ask for opinions as to the candidate's suitability for the post. It is important in responding to such queries, and in general in giving a reference, to ensure that:
any statements in the reference are factually accurate and the overall impression is not misleading;
any opinions are clearly stated as opinions and are based on verifiable facts;
Emotive and highly coloured language is avoided, especially if the comments are negative;
the employee has been made fully aware of any complaints or negative comments which are included, and that other appropriate management action has been taken in such cases;
the reference is given by someone who is qualified to give such opinions.
Advice on good practice from the DTI suggests that employers should be as open as possible about references. It is strongly advised that you do not write anything in a reference which you would not wish the subject of the reference to see.
In giving references there is also a duty of care to the potential employer seeking the reference, and relevant and material facts and information should be truthfully disclosed, especially where problems or difficulties have been experienced with the candidate's conduct or capability (as stated above, the candidate must have been made fully aware of such problems or difficulties).
Confidentiality of references under the 1998 Data Protection Act
References written by an organisation for the purposes of employment are specifically excluded from the rights to access established by the Act, in the sense that employees are not entitled to have access, through their own employer, to any employment reference given, or to be given, in confidence by that employer. However, once the reference has been received by the organisation requesting it, it is in principle accessible through that employer. In other words individuals can apply to see references given by you, through the other employer, and to see references given to you, through you. None the less, if a reference has been received on a confidential basis the recipient must act reasonably in deciding whether or not to give access; the consent of the referee should be sought and if this is refused the recipient may refuse access. Access may also be refused if the reference mentions another identifiable individual who has not consented to the disclosure unless it is practicable to anonymise the material.
Those writing references should ensure that the references they give are clearly marked "strictly confidential" if they do not wish the subject to have automatic right of access; and those seeking references should ensure that referees are informed that the references they provide will be regarded as disclosable unless they mark their references 'strictly confidential', in which case the recipient will judge whether a duty of confidentiality exists. This is likely to be the case where the referee has made it clear that he/she would not wish the subject of the reference to have access. However, the subject of a reference has the right of appeal to the Information Commissioner who may, in some circumstances, compel disclosure, so it should never be assumed that confidentiality can be guaranteed absolutely.
The latest guidance from the Information Commissioner, while allowing refusal to disclose confidential references, suggests a wish for greater openness, and it is possible that at some future point it may be decreed that the duty owed to the reference subject is more important than that owed to the writer, and that therefore confidential references will have to be disclosed.
Best wishes
Jon
Apr 24th 2005, 9:30 am
#8
Lotus-eater
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: Cascadian Autonomous Elysian Region
Posts: 5,069
Re: Any good threats I can use?
Originally Posted by jon254
So thats a yes then.
Rich.
Apr 24th 2005, 9:37 am
#9
Lotus-eater
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: Cascadian Autonomous Elysian Region
Posts: 5,069
Re: Any good threats I can use?
Originally Posted by Devon_Gang
Something very interesting I did not realise, we could send of application with other proofs (we DO have wage slips) and send these letters of confirmation and/or references later. We didnt know we could do that!! I had visions of not even getting to AOR stage till next year at this rate!Kaz
Yeah, you are right. Get the application sent off eary means you are in the system and earlier processing can start, providing you don't leave out anything too substantiative. We sent loads of additional info after application, and it all gets stacked up in your file. Just be sure to state filenumber in covering letter and also on outside of envelope, and send by recorded delivery.
On receipt of your initial application, they basically sift through it to ensure all present and correct, and unless something is glaringly obvious you'll get through to AOR. Then, you have about 12 months or more to send all that extra info through to them but of course, the earlier the better).
The extra stuff we sent that all got logged was:
Missing old reference.
Change of job (Rich) with new contract and latest reference.Updated financial statement for proof of cashflow to settle with.
Professional certification for Nicky
Job offer for Nicky.
Detailed letter stating details of two research trips, evidence of suitablility to settle succesfully and evidence of monthly cashflow proving that we could survive with one job offer based on research of Canadian living costs etc.
Good luck !!!
Rich.
Apr 24th 2005, 12:45 pm
#10
Just Joined
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: Plymouth Devon
Posts: 20
Re: Any good threats I can use?
Originally Posted by Rich_007
Kaz,
Yeah, you are right. Get the application sent off eary means you are in the system and earlier processing can start, providing you don't leave out anything too substantiative. We sent loads of additional info after application, and it all gets stacked up in your file. Just be sure to state filenumber in covering letter and also on outside of envelope, and send by recorded delivery.
On receipt of your initial application, they basically sift through it to ensure all present and correct, and unless something is glaringly obvious you'll get through to AOR. Then, you have about 12 months or more to send all that extra info through to them but of course, the earlier the better).
The extra stuff we sent that all got logged was:
Missing old reference.
Change of job (Rich) with new contract and latest reference.Updated financial statement for proof of cashflow to settle with.
Professional certification for Nicky
Job offer for Nicky.
Detailed letter stating details of two research trips, evidence of suitablility to settle succesfully and evidence of monthly cashflow proving that we could survive with one job offer based on research of Canadian living costs etc.
Good luck !!!
Rich.
Yeah, you are right. Get the application sent off eary means you are in the system and earlier processing can start, providing you don't leave out anything too substantiative. We sent loads of additional info after application, and it all gets stacked up in your file. Just be sure to state filenumber in covering letter and also on outside of envelope, and send by recorded delivery.
On receipt of your initial application, they basically sift through it to ensure all present and correct, and unless something is glaringly obvious you'll get through to AOR. Then, you have about 12 months or more to send all that extra info through to them but of course, the earlier the better).
The extra stuff we sent that all got logged was:
Missing old reference.
Change of job (Rich) with new contract and latest reference.Updated financial statement for proof of cashflow to settle with.
Professional certification for Nicky
Job offer for Nicky.
Detailed letter stating details of two research trips, evidence of suitablility to settle succesfully and evidence of monthly cashflow proving that we could survive with one job offer based on research of Canadian living costs etc.
Good luck !!!
Rich.
Thanks again Rich, That means we have virtually everything we need to get the application in,
we are waiting on the police certs and just have to copy off details of assets/equity, then it will be in the post. woohoo!!then I can start quoting Data Protection Act at a few people LOL
Kaz
Apr 25th 2005, 2:55 am
#11
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2002
Location: Swift Current, SK
Posts: 695
Re: Any good threats I can use?
Originally Posted by Devon_Gang
THANK YOU so so much for all that information, knew i could count on you guys!
That was so much more info than I expected and is extremely helpful, Rich, if you'r not a researcher/lawyer/citizens advocate, then your talents are wasted!?
I will try a phone call to each of them, a very polite one of course, then a 'gentle' reminder! then it will be hard stuff!! pulling out all the Data Protection stuff etc you have so kindly supplied!!
Something very interesting I did not realise, we could send of application with other proofs (we DO have wage slips) and send these letters of confirmation and/or references later. We didnt know we could do that!! I had visions of not even getting to AOR stage till next year at this rate!
Thanks again all, karma all round
Kaz
That was so much more info than I expected and is extremely helpful, Rich, if you'r not a researcher/lawyer/citizens advocate, then your talents are wasted!?
I will try a phone call to each of them, a very polite one of course, then a 'gentle' reminder! then it will be hard stuff!! pulling out all the Data Protection stuff etc you have so kindly supplied!!
Something very interesting I did not realise, we could send of application with other proofs (we DO have wage slips) and send these letters of confirmation and/or references later. We didnt know we could do that!! I had visions of not even getting to AOR stage till next year at this rate!
Thanks again all, karma all round
Kaz
For us, it did take a hellish long time to get responses from as many companies as we could track down...weeks and weeks of loking up who had taken over who and when. Looking at the Companies online database etc etc. God what a pain that all was. What's made it worse since then...absolutely no-one has asked to see my references since we landed
wow that was worth it!
Apr 28th 2005, 12:03 am
#12
Just Joined
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: Plymouth Devon
Posts: 20
Re: Any good threats I can use?
Originally Posted by Smokey
Kaz, its just an extra thought (remembering what a nightmare doing this bit was) but write also to the National Insurance people for your pension statement under the DP Act also. An 'Official' document what at least proves you worked for X company for a certain length of time. Let you know how your pensions faring too.
For us, it did take a hellish long time to get responses from as many companies as we could track down...weeks and weeks of loking up who had taken over who and when. Looking at the Companies online database etc etc. God what a pain that all was. What's made it worse since then...absolutely no-one has asked to see my references since we landed wow that was worth it!
For us, it did take a hellish long time to get responses from as many companies as we could track down...weeks and weeks of loking up who had taken over who and when. Looking at the Companies online database etc etc. God what a pain that all was. What's made it worse since then...absolutely no-one has asked to see my references since we landed
wow that was worth it!Hi Smokey
Very very good idea, I had'nt actually thought of that one and have never seen it suggested before, am going to sort that out too (just one more for the 'to do' list!!)
Problem is, it will have a lovely gap in it over a 2 year period as a past employer, although deducting tax and NI failed to actually pay it to anyone!!! not to worry though, the company was forced into insolvancy so I have the proof/records of that and also luckily as they used an independant accountant the Inland revenue know exactly what was deducted and have 'credited me' nice of them I know!!
(it was probably the threat of my turning up at their office and the place i was prepared to stuff all the useless pay slips i had!) :scared: By the way, sorry in delay in responding and thanking for your reply,
but i work 3 on/3off 12 hour shifts so not around for days on end!!Kaz
Apr 28th 2005, 5:21 am
#13
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Doha, Qatar
Posts: 790
Re: Any good threats I can use?
Originally Posted by Devon_Gang
Hi all, question for you
we are still in the 'gathering info/documents stage' and already i'm a blithering mess watching the door mat and the application hasnt even gone in yet!! :scared:
Problem is, have sent of requests for confirmation of employment, details ect to previous employers and have heard back from all except 2 who we know are still trading/in business.that was nearly 4 weeks ago. Was going to send of a copy with a 'nice' reminder, but was interested what would we say/request if we did have to start getting heavy? are they obliged to give us this info? what do we do if they dont respond? anyone else had this problem?
There is no reason why they would withhold the stuff, we parted company on good terms so there's no nasty sackings/dodgy stuff that would cause a problem and one company does have the stuff cause they have to keep all records for at least 10 years (I worked for them 6yrs ago)
Any advice gratefully recieved
Kaz
we are still in the 'gathering info/documents stage' and already i'm a blithering mess watching the door mat and the application hasnt even gone in yet!! :scared:
Problem is, have sent of requests for confirmation of employment, details ect to previous employers and have heard back from all except 2 who we know are still trading/in business.that was nearly 4 weeks ago.
Was going to send of a copy with a 'nice' reminder, but was interested what would we say/request if we did have to start getting heavy? are they obliged to give us this info? what do we do if they dont respond? anyone else had this problem?There is no reason why they would withhold the stuff, we parted company on good terms so there's no nasty sackings/dodgy stuff that would cause a problem and one company does have the stuff cause they have to keep all records for at least 10 years (I worked for them 6yrs ago)
Any advice gratefully recieved
Kaz
1. Payslips
2. National Insurance records
3. Offer appointment/acceptance
4. Signed contract of employment
5. Resignations letters.
6. Covering statment explaning where refernces were missing and what steps I had taken to secure them.
No point holding up the application because a coulpe are missing. If you do get them in due course just send them in.
