No Skills, No Dutch
 

..........................but they still want to go and live in the Netherlands ?
I am continually amazed at the numbers who think that they can make a go a new country when they have no marketable skills and zero knowledge of the local languages and culture. It applies to the Netherlands and lots of other places.

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

chill out Scotty, instead of being negative, how about giving them the right advice. I mean that's what this forum is for right??

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

I'm sure that Scot47 will answer for himself, but I think that he was hinting at the hopelessness of finding any job in any foreign country without marketable skills and knowledge of the local language.
I think his unspoken advice would be to acquire marketable qualifications and learn the language before arrival, in order to cope with the bureaucracy and the nitty-gritty of day-to-day life and not depend on the natives' knowledge of English to get by. Retirees can get away with this, to a point, but not those who need to work.
This is certainly applicable in France, with its high unemployment rate and stiff competition from English-speaking French candidates for any job going, and most potential expats who haven't got a job lined up take this advice on board.

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

I am so chilled that ice cubes are warmer than me !
I echo what the above poster, dmu, says.
Read some of the posters here and marvel at the naivete of some of our fellow-Brits.

Give the right advice ? Sometimes that could be - DO NOT COME.

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

Gone are the days when you can survive in Europe on English skills and nothing else. Their own graduates speak at least 2 fluently.
Gone are the days when you'd be considered for no-skilled jobs.
The agencies have this all sown up with cheap imported labour.

If you're a Brit, you need something pretty special. IT (mid or senior level). Engineering. Pharma. Otherwise you'll be just another small and weak fish in a very, very large and teeming pool full of people who can no longer practice their old profession without total fluency in the local languag.

So if you want a career here, even if it's a step backwards, start learning the language because it's going to take a while to even understand enough for casual conversation.

Even better, the gold plated advice. Do Not Move before you have a job offer, and have a Plan B in the form of tickets back to Blighty. I've seen many people go home completely and utterly broke - this is reality of the non-skilled workforce.

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

Or bring your own capital and start your own business.
Then you can hire people with whatever language and other skills are required.

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

Alas, many of the young hopefuls have no capital and a very small grubstake.

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

But unless you're running an on-line business remotely, you still need to speak the local language to market your business, sell your products or services, and communicate with your customers.

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

Maybe "Scotty" was pointing the finger at you as one of the members with such a question. http://britishexpats.com/forum/nethe...ngland-849965/ I would agree with his sentiments no matter who posts the question. It is not negative it is being realistic.

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

Realism is not what some posters expect. They want spin, fantasy and lies. They have become used to that from the Media.

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

No Dutch means you would have to have skills for the job market where English is the main language used e.g. offshore engineering. No skills means simple jobs e.g. filling the shelves in a supermarket and that will not provide a living wage. As Scot47 says there are lots of dreamers with little idea of real life.

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

Wisdom comes with age. Sometimes.

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

Scot I wanted to given you a lot of Karma points for these posts, by the forum will not let me. Sorry but you can only have one for now.

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

Cool. Better than ice cubes !

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

Many people believe this. Like you, I'm amazed that some people (refugees excepted) think they can turn up with nothing, but hope for everything.

Personally, I don't like surprises, I wouldn't do it. If people want to increase their odds of success, then they need to bring something to the table.

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

This post should be stickied right at the top of the forum :)

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

..... and not just the Netherlands forum!!;)
with Dutch replaced by the language of each country concerned, and "children in tow" added, as a lot of apparently single parents wish to move to Continental Europe with dependent children, but without skills nor the language to ensure employment. A single person with no ties could go for it, but not a parent responsible for the welfare of their child(ren).

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

And I thought I was just a grumpy old man complaining about the younger generation. Can I give MYSELF karma ?

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

What I find interesting about you folk on the forum, is that some of you, rather than imparting advice and yes, realistic expectations, you come with judgement and hostility and often times condemnation.

life doesn't end because you are a single parent. You still need to educate, clothe and feed your children wherever you happen to be. You do not know all the in's and outs of an individuals situation.

People are seeking a better life and some are not afraid to take CALCULATED risks to enhance theirs and their children's lives and futures.

No the grass is not always greener, however who says that we should be content with our lot and not seek to find what works better for us.

I own a property, I have a good job and the opportunity to move to another country with a company I have worked with for years. I want my children to live in a clean, relaxed (maybe bureaucratic) yet reasonable safe environment - and am willing to have a short term inconvenience for long term gains. - What is wrong with that?

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

Nothing. You are moving with a job, and appear to be taking a carefully thought out decision. The thrust of this thread is against the naive and foolish who think they can up-sticks and move to a country where they don't have a job to go to, don't speak the language and have few if any marketable skills to earn a living, given that they don't speak the language. And "naive and foolish" doesn't begin to describe those who envisage making such a move with children in tow. :blink:

Oh, and the "advice" which you seem to have overlooked, is "go somewhere where you have a cat-in-hell's chance of finding work and supporting yourself". That advice is not "judgemental" and "hostile", it is honest and realistic.

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

I have read a few posts and there are a lot of comments that come across as quite hostile to a certain type of poster. Honest and realistic comments can be made without being dismissive and rude.
And the comment about single parents has been dropped into the discourse as though single parents are somehow irresponsible for considering such a move.

people move all the time...the fact they have come to a forum to ask questions is a good thing. Rather than ranting about naivete how about making some suggestions and pointing out the pitfalls.

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

I mentioned apparently single parents, as this implies that there isn't any income coming in from the other parent, and no emotional and material support for the upheaval of moving children to another country. The pitfalls have already been clearly stated above: No work lined up and no knowledge of the local language = living on savings for a long time, paying private healthcare coverage, frustrations due to lack of communication ... OK if you're single without dependents, but irresponsible where children are concerned. As for suggestions, I advised learning the language of the country concerned and acquiring marketable qualifications, before taking the plunge.You yourself seem to have had a good job to go to, with additional income from the UK, so you were financially confident to launch into your venture with your children. The OPs in the other threads were asking about job possibilities, with young children and even teenagers in tow. Interestingly, none of them replied to the advice given.No one is being hostile here, just realistic.

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

Fair enough!

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

Dreams are fine but at some time we all have to cope with reality.

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

I saw some tragedies involved when I lived and worked in Bulgaria. There was a wave of British "colonisation" starting in the 1990s. Many of the new arrivals did well at adjusting to life in the Balkans. Those who came hoping to work or set up in business did not fare so well. Those with children with them almost invariably had real problems.Dreams are not enough.
So, the problem it seems, is not restricted to the Netherlands.

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

Which ones made a successful transistion?
I know it will be challenging and I must admit I am in 2 minds. I just realise that if i dont make the move whilst my children are young enough to integrate completely it will never happen, and i dont want to get to their teens and realise that I should have been brave.

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

Easier for pensioners and others who had an income from outside Bulgaria. Also easier for those with experience of living in "foreign parts". Previous learning and use of foreign languages seemed to be a reliable indicator of ability to adapt. Those obsessed with English football and the need for a "Costa Brava lifestyle" did not last.

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

If you have a job lined up, a secure job with rare skills/qualifications like IT or Pharma as opposed to a zero hour contract at a call centre), and the cash in the bank for the initial expenses such as the deposit and rent on a new home and childcare for those annoying Wednesday afternoons when the schools all shut, do it while your children are still young. In their teens it will be too late, you are right (personally, I'd say 9 is the cut off age to successful integration).

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

Thanks, it all seems to be doable for me - just need to get the language!

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

Watched this TV show last night.
Praat Nederlands met me
All about several immigrates to The Netherlands (some are refugees) and their languages skills.
One woman who has live in the country for 8 years seem to be overcome by the whole experience whilst at the other end of the scale two have been in the country for a very short time and talking quite fluidly and with confidence.

Draw you own conclusions. ;)

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

You aren't as fluent in English as you think you are? :unsure:

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

I watched the first few minutes (up to the part where the young girl told her "family" that she only eats halal food), I kind of lost interest at that point - sorry. I'll try and get back to it later.

I saw another programme on Dutch TV last week, where they filmed the new arrivals at an asylum centre. The asylum seekers had nothing positive to say, only that they weren't being given enough clothes, they needed to be given more money to buy cigarettes, the free internet connection that had been provided was not good enough for them to stream films and that the food in Holland was not nice.

OK - these aren't expats, but the Dutch people I watched it with were furious that these people had no gratitude and no interest in anything else except what they could get for nothing. My wife (Dutch) was speechless (not seen that for years!); she sent a text to the show suggesting the people be put back on the train/plane they just got off.

I'll be honest here; from the start when most were sympathetic with these people, I have not subsequently heard a single positive thing on this subject, from my extended Dutch family.

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

If you ah watched some more you would have seen a man from Damascus. He was quite succinct that his idea of paradise was back in the old Domascus, not in NL. In is time in NL he had not learnt so much Dutch. I liked the Chinese guy he was willing to learn open and funny.

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

That could have been (but it wasn't) me and my friend, who I met at the sports club our daughters attend. She's been living here a similar amount of time, and she is pretty much fluent. My conclusion? Nobody switches to her language (Turkish) when they hear her practice Dutch, but just about everyone will switch to English when they hear my accent. We talk in Dutch, but she and my old German neighbour (also didn't speak a word of English) are the only ones who always speak to me only in Dutch.

I prefer to speak Dutch with other incomers than with natives. Not only do I find their accents clearer, but they are considerably less judgemental when errors are made. I suspect your Dutch wife was gentle with you (love is deaf, and all that), but on a daily basis (with the exception of tourists who come bearing euros) they are on the whole a nation of merciless barstewards if a grammatical mistake is made by someone who's living here.

Most recently, I had a fun phonecall with the admin at my daughter's new school who called me just to tell me she couldn't understand my answerphone message - I asked that if she'd managed to take my daughter's name and our phone number from the dedicated ziekmelden answerphone, what was left to understand? They won't help you learn, and they won't hesitate to knock you for not making enough effort to learn.

I might be British, but it doesn't stop me sympathising with the holier-than-though attitude these human beings who happen to be seeking temporary asylum in the Netherlands are facing.

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

I found that while I didn't live in Holland, most Dutch people spoke to me in English; that is except for my mother in law, she couldn't speak a word of it, so I started trying to speak it then. The moment I moved there, it changed; most expected me to learn the language, it really sank in the first time I needed a dentist. 30 years later, I still make mistakes, my wife still corrects me, but I get by (I no longer go to the Post Office and come back with a bag of sweets!). It's my accent that confuses most Dutch people, it's a mixed Southern England/Twentse; I have to remember to speak slowly - oh, and not forget to breath. :)

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

Why would anyone think they can live there with no Dutch language skills ? Say what you like, to me, this is still the "Colonialist mentality" at work !

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

It's worst than that, it's often a clash of two Colonialist mentalities. There is very little difference between the Dutch and English in that respect. People will learn Dutch, but as Cynic says, he's still be corrected after 30 years (and I'm sure his fluency is greater than mine, as I don't have a Dutch partner, never watch Dutch TV, etc). Like the UK, it's this 'people moving here should be eternally GRATEFUL to us' attitiude.

But it's like this, I'm a first generation expat, and I will never be Dutch enough, even if I ate stampot for every meal and cycled to my own funeral. I'm cool with this, seriously, I'm happy being English; I choose my friends here like I would at home, and don't waste time with those whose views are at either extreme (you should try every moment become just like us - there is no point trying because you will never be one of us). Life's too short.

But this is drifting off topic, which was to say don't bother uprooting your family to come here without Dutch and without a decent job contract in hand (like some seem to think it's doable). Language aside, this country is too expensive to set up here home without the guarantee of an income, and the emotional toll on those forced to move with you (kids) can be traumatic enough, without a jobless/homeless parent(s). In fact, I often wonder where people think they'll find a landlord who will let a home to an unemployed family? Couch surfing and room sharing is for singletons.

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

LOL - it doesn't help that BBC1 is on the cable TV. We used to get BBC2 as well (going back a long time, they even used to re-broadcast British Forces TV in Holland, Coronation Street had a big following in Holland because of that). Watching Dutch TV (in those days, we only had Dutch 1, 2 and 3, which only broadcast in the evening) really helped me learn Dutch, there was nothing else to watch and I couldn't afford to party every night.

Re: No Skills, No Dutch
 

Yes, we forget that the Dutch used to have a large colonial empire.