UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
Mar 20th 2010, 5:33 am
#106
An Australian Citizen !!
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Terrigal - NSW Central Coast since June 2005
Posts: 1,237
Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
Quote
["The applicants did not contribute to the UK economy in particular, they paid no UK tax to offset the cost of any increase in the pension"
European Court of Human Rights]
If the above is really what was said in the European Court Of Human Rights in relation to this judgement, then no wonder this world is rotten to its core.
Did these people making this decision go to university or were their qualifications obtained from the back of cereal boxes for the disingenuous, the dishonest, the cretinous?
In no way is the indexing of a person's pension, whether they live in the U.K., Timbuktu or Mars, an increase: if the purchasing power of your pension is not maintained, then in actual fact you are being discriminated against by receiving a cut or reduction in your pension, unlike residents in the U.K. and other countries. This fact is not rocket science.
The indexing of a person's pension does not deliver an increase, it simply maintains its original purchasing power, so the fact that you did not contribute to the English economy or paid no tax in the years following your pension, is totally irrelevant because you are not asking for an increase anyway, you are not asking for more. That is why this judgement is manifestly faulty, because it rests on the principle that you are. Amazingly, given supposedly educated pepole, their focus is on the pension's likely numerical 'increase', not its original value or purchasing power which, and it should go without question, is where it should be. The European Court's focus was on the pension figure instead of what it can buy.
Obviously, implicit in the sum you finally qualify for, is the value and purchasing power of that sum, which in actual fact, with indexing, really remains the same, and so it obviously should. It is the original pension sum you receive that should set the agenda, not the increase in annual inflation or the CPI figures. They are actually beside the point so that if England's annual rate of inflation is 5% and where I live is 4%, I, quite rightly, should only receive a 4% adjustment. It won't buy me more but never, ever should it buy me less.
There are also two other facts, only one of which I will give here.
1. The very same people making this judgement, man and woman, would have overwhelmingly found in our favour if all the circumstances present today were exactly the same except that Britain had not joined the Common Market and
["The applicants did not contribute to the UK economy in particular, they paid no UK tax to offset the cost of any increase in the pension"
European Court of Human Rights]
If the above is really what was said in the European Court Of Human Rights in relation to this judgement, then no wonder this world is rotten to its core.
Did these people making this decision go to university or were their qualifications obtained from the back of cereal boxes for the disingenuous, the dishonest, the cretinous?
In no way is the indexing of a person's pension, whether they live in the U.K., Timbuktu or Mars, an increase: if the purchasing power of your pension is not maintained, then in actual fact you are being discriminated against by receiving a cut or reduction in your pension, unlike residents in the U.K. and other countries. This fact is not rocket science.
The indexing of a person's pension does not deliver an increase, it simply maintains its original purchasing power, so the fact that you did not contribute to the English economy or paid no tax in the years following your pension, is totally irrelevant because you are not asking for an increase anyway, you are not asking for more. That is why this judgement is manifestly faulty, because it rests on the principle that you are. Amazingly, given supposedly educated pepole, their focus is on the pension's likely numerical 'increase', not its original value or purchasing power which, and it should go without question, is where it should be. The European Court's focus was on the pension figure instead of what it can buy.
Obviously, implicit in the sum you finally qualify for, is the value and purchasing power of that sum, which in actual fact, with indexing, really remains the same, and so it obviously should. It is the original pension sum you receive that should set the agenda, not the increase in annual inflation or the CPI figures. They are actually beside the point so that if England's annual rate of inflation is 5% and where I live is 4%, I, quite rightly, should only receive a 4% adjustment. It won't buy me more but never, ever should it buy me less.
There are also two other facts, only one of which I will give here.
1. The very same people making this judgement, man and woman, would have overwhelmingly found in our favour if all the circumstances present today were exactly the same except that Britain had not joined the Common Market and
This is a very interesting take on the issue, some of which I am not qualified to comment on.
The Court focused on the tax issue, which was the wrong issue - as we all know the pension comes from the NI Fund which has, give or take a Pound or two, some 15 billion Sterling in the pot at the last known count.
The majority of the judges in the Grand Chamber appeal came from countries where this issue would never appear in a month of Sundays and, learned as they may be, are probably not focussed on this particular matter. National Insurance is not top of the pops in most of the European states.
The QC representing the claimants gave a particularly knowledgeable and persuasive argument (I have seen the court video presentation more than once and gone through the presentation transcript sentence by sentence!) but the Court focussed solely on the legal issues as seen by them in relation to Human Rights (as you would expect) without attempting to consider any moral judgement on the UK government's stance. The government representation was evasive to say the least, but they had the initial high ground and it would have difficult to overturn the original ECHR judgement of 6-1 against.
To have gathered 6 votes in favour from a multi-national panel was, in itself, a part victory, and you could say that it was only 3 votes away from an outright "win". Be that as it may, this is a devastating blow at the end of a long and sometimes bitter campaign. We now await the decision of the various organisations to decide the way forward.
We may be down but we're certainly not out of the game.
Jim
Mar 20th 2010, 6:41 am
#107
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
Obviously these "learned" judges assumed that British Expats who live in the USA, Philippines, and quite a few other countries do still contribute, otherwise that reason given for the decision must be WRONG.
Mar 20th 2010, 6:54 am
#108
Banned
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 22,348
Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
Just want to point a couple of things out about the frozen pension. Quite a few pensioners here in Australia are on the 410 retirement visa, which is always a temporary visa. As such the tax position is different, and some of us actually still pay UK tax and not tax here. So we are still UK tax payers!
If you go back to UK for a visit, you inform the relevant dept. and on arrival in UK, your state pension is upped to what it should be had you never left. Then from the day you leave again, it reverts back to it's frozen amount!!!! Yes it is worth claiming even if you are only there for a short time. It's yours.
I still think the point is, that no where was it stated when you started to pay your national insurance contribution, that it would only be index linked if you lived in certain countries. So after a working life time of paying the full amount, I would still like to know, when the conditions were imposed, and who decided which countries would or would not be eligible, and on which basis the decisions were made.
If you go back to UK for a visit, you inform the relevant dept. and on arrival in UK, your state pension is upped to what it should be had you never left. Then from the day you leave again, it reverts back to it's frozen amount!!!! Yes it is worth claiming even if you are only there for a short time. It's yours.
I still think the point is, that no where was it stated when you started to pay your national insurance contribution, that it would only be index linked if you lived in certain countries. So after a working life time of paying the full amount, I would still like to know, when the conditions were imposed, and who decided which countries would or would not be eligible, and on which basis the decisions were made.
This is something that's been confirmed to me over the years time and again: Life is rarely fair.
Mar 20th 2010, 8:25 am
#110
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Joined: Sep 2002
Location: Ilukapool. WA
Posts: 12,467
Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
But like I said before, it won't be an issue soon as I'm convinced the govt. will stop paying the state pension to all those living outside the UK, possibly starting with those outside the EU - to "bring the policy in to line" with other developed nations.
Mar 20th 2010, 11:54 am
#111
Just Joined
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 17
Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
[QUOTE=Jimclevs;8433818]Hi............. and welcome to BE.
This is a very interesting take on the issue, some of which I am not qualified to comment on.
The Court focused on the tax issue, which was the wrong issue - as we all know the pension comes from the NI Fund which has, give or take a Pound or two, some 15 billion Sterling in the pot at the last known count.
Thank you for your welcome, Jim.
Any focus on anything other than maintaining the original purchasing power of your pension is completely irrelevant in the equation - it is totally beside the point where you spend your pension and on what. Actually, it's not even their business and is a totally subjective analysis of the issue. The simple fact of the matter is that even when your pension is indexed you do not receive a real increase at all, whether you live in the U.K. or not. And so ipso facto, if your pension is not indexed your pension is being cut - no indexation is not a neutral act. It is a penalty and it is not that far-fetched to imagine some courts even interpreting it as fraud or sleight of hand theft.
Let us reverse this and hypothesise a scenario for a moment where, amazingly, inflation and the CPI figures continually decrease so that after ten years, for example, the U.K. is faced with paying many overseas pensioners in countries like Australia, far more even than people newly qualifying for their pensions day by day in the U.K. at the present time.
And given in such a scenario, that the finances and economic position of the country would probably also be in dire straits, they would be bleating about the unfairness of pensioners in countries like Australia receiving a 'fixed' amount that each year continually allowed them to purchase more than pensioners living in the U.K.
And corrupt and rotten courts, like the so-called European Court of Human Rights, would support them all the way.
I'm sorry but after so many years on the planet, it is nigh impossible to see politicians as being anything but utter hypocrites, from top to toe.
I'm just hoping that there are other avenues we can pursue - it is worth fighting this appalling injustice all the way and with every ounce of our being.
This is a very interesting take on the issue, some of which I am not qualified to comment on.
The Court focused on the tax issue, which was the wrong issue - as we all know the pension comes from the NI Fund which has, give or take a Pound or two, some 15 billion Sterling in the pot at the last known count.
Thank you for your welcome, Jim.
Any focus on anything other than maintaining the original purchasing power of your pension is completely irrelevant in the equation - it is totally beside the point where you spend your pension and on what. Actually, it's not even their business and is a totally subjective analysis of the issue. The simple fact of the matter is that even when your pension is indexed you do not receive a real increase at all, whether you live in the U.K. or not. And so ipso facto, if your pension is not indexed your pension is being cut - no indexation is not a neutral act. It is a penalty and it is not that far-fetched to imagine some courts even interpreting it as fraud or sleight of hand theft.
Let us reverse this and hypothesise a scenario for a moment where, amazingly, inflation and the CPI figures continually decrease so that after ten years, for example, the U.K. is faced with paying many overseas pensioners in countries like Australia, far more even than people newly qualifying for their pensions day by day in the U.K. at the present time.
And given in such a scenario, that the finances and economic position of the country would probably also be in dire straits, they would be bleating about the unfairness of pensioners in countries like Australia receiving a 'fixed' amount that each year continually allowed them to purchase more than pensioners living in the U.K.
And corrupt and rotten courts, like the so-called European Court of Human Rights, would support them all the way.
I'm sorry but after so many years on the planet, it is nigh impossible to see politicians as being anything but utter hypocrites, from top to toe.
I'm just hoping that there are other avenues we can pursue - it is worth fighting this appalling injustice all the way and with every ounce of our being.
Mar 21st 2010, 12:07 am
#112
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,397
Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
My welcome too!
If you look at the sorry history of the overseas pensions' saga over the years, the thing that leaps out is the way that politicians' arguments change with the wind.
As each of their arguments is shown to be nonsensical they bring forward another, then another and so on.
It's also instructive to see how their own pensions, together with civil servants and judges, are "exempted" from the freezing that a portion of our non-state pensions are. (Or, more correctly, the UK taxpayer picks up the tab to make them up to the indexed amount.)
If you look at the sorry history of the overseas pensions' saga over the years, the thing that leaps out is the way that politicians' arguments change with the wind.
As each of their arguments is shown to be nonsensical they bring forward another, then another and so on.
It's also instructive to see how their own pensions, together with civil servants and judges, are "exempted" from the freezing that a portion of our non-state pensions are. (Or, more correctly, the UK taxpayer picks up the tab to make them up to the indexed amount.)
Mar 21st 2010, 2:47 am
#113
Just Joined
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 17
Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
My welcome too!
If you look at the sorry history of the overseas pensions' saga over the years, the thing that leaps out is the way that politicians' arguments change with the wind.
As each of their arguments is shown to be nonsensical they bring forward another, then another and so on.
It's also instructive to see how their own pensions, together with civil servants and judges, are "exempted" from the freezing that a portion of our non-state pensions are. (Or, more correctly, the UK taxpayer picks up the tab to make them up to the indexed amount.)
If you look at the sorry history of the overseas pensions' saga over the years, the thing that leaps out is the way that politicians' arguments change with the wind.
As each of their arguments is shown to be nonsensical they bring forward another, then another and so on.
It's also instructive to see how their own pensions, together with civil servants and judges, are "exempted" from the freezing that a portion of our non-state pensions are. (Or, more correctly, the UK taxpayer picks up the tab to make them up to the indexed amount.)
It is such an extraordinary injustice and when you juxtapose it with the facts you point out - this is also the case in Australia where the retired politicians likewise ensure their awards are safely and generously indexed - you see just how accurate Orwell's 'Animal Farm' really is with these pigs swilling at the troughs for all they are worth.
Mar 28th 2010, 11:34 pm
#114
Just Joined
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 17
Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
Not to prolong the agony but in the light of this decision, thought some of you might be interested in this little Labour Party pearler I picked up yesterday from a programme I'd downloaded from that great site: the box.bz., (and in case I'm accused of taking sides politically, well, I've never voted Tory in my life.)
His Right Honourable John Prescott speaking about Labour as 'the caring party, (the party of) social justice (and) traditional values'.
It is such utter bollocks and makes you want to heave. Do these frigging Labout Party hypocrites believe this tripe?
Something is rotten in the state of England and it begins at 10, Downing Street.
His Right Honourable John Prescott speaking about Labour as 'the caring party, (the party of) social justice (and) traditional values'.
It is such utter bollocks and makes you want to heave. Do these frigging Labout Party hypocrites believe this tripe?
Something is rotten in the state of England and it begins at 10, Downing Street.
Mar 29th 2010, 12:53 am
#115
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Joined: Sep 2002
Location: Ilukapool. WA
Posts: 12,467
Mar 29th 2010, 1:22 am
#116
Lost in BE Cyberspace
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Posts: 9,397
Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
and the schadenfreudian part of me says good luck to them - let the country *really* see what a hole they have dug over the last 13 years. Then I look at how my pension $$ remittances have shrunk and reality returns <g>.
Mar 29th 2010, 2:35 am
#117
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Joined: Sep 2002
Location: Ilukapool. WA
Posts: 12,467
Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
If I didn't have friends and family there I'd agree but I don't want to see them wiped out by hyperinflation.
Mar 29th 2010, 2:41 am
#118
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Mar 29th 2010, 3:08 am
#119
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Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
I don't know about the hyper bit, but certainly inflation will be an issue - it's the only way that people's savings can be eroded so that the government debt is gradually lessened.
Mar 29th 2010, 3:16 am
#120
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Joined: Sep 2002
Location: Ilukapool. WA
Posts: 12,467
Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
The article also went on to say that it takes about 10 years to happen with a period of deflation first.