Kooky.

I think there's a big difference - the Indonesian archipelago is too huge and diverse to be thought of as one country.

PamE

In what way(s)?

the troubadour

I find Indonesia a far more interesting country..being so large with such a diverse range of people.
Found to people warmer,had invites back to folks houses for a meal, family groups asked if i'd like to share their meal...
The language is not so difficult..everybody goes away with a bit who stay longer than a few weeks.
Most above points failed to really find in Thailand.

sr71

When I backpacked through Indonesia and Thailand about 12 years ago I actually found the opposite.

However, I think Thailand has been spoiled immensely from what it was a decade ago - with both Thais and foreigners to blame.

the troubadour

Interesting how the same places can be viewed so differently. As for Thailand i have been going there since the seventies...and felt it was already becoming "spoilt "twenty years ago with the building of the airport in Kao Samui....along with other things.

PamE

Have found people that are not involved in tourism to be very warm and friendly here in Indonesia, we commented on that straight away. Language I agree, especially if you've been in Malaysia also - it's easy to pic up lots of useful vocab. But I didn't like Java much - Jakarta especially was a nightmare, altho Bromo made it all worthwhile. I think my view might be a bit skewed (sp) tho - have been on the road in SE Asia for more than half a year now and am pretty tired tbh. Finding I'm lacking enthusiasm for the everyday things about being in an alien environment that even 2 months ago would have interested & excited me and made all the less enjoyable aspects of backpacking more bearable (dirt, long uncomfortable journies, endless dodgy touts etc). This ol' girl is ready for some 'normal' life! Hence we kind of raced thru Java to Bali, where I imagined paradise awaited, and sadly thus far, have not found it! Went to Lovina first which was very disappointing, then on to Tulamben (nice wreck), then decided maybe paradise was actually in Lombok so headed for Senggegi, which Lying Planet said had beaches that people spend a lifetime looking for - not so! But we will go have a look at the Gili islands and then head back to southern bits of Bali, there must be something spectacular here or surely people wouldn't rave about it?

Also as backpacker in Indonesia, accomodation & transport is much better standard in other countries over here, value for money is not at all what it is in Thailand -e.g. what we pay here for something not nice a horrible bathroom, you could have something absolutely lovely in Thailand. I love Thailand, have spent months there, up north as well as beaches and islands, and for me, Thailand wins. But again, maybe it's just we've been out here too long now - if we'd come to Indonesia 6 months ago I would have had more energy and perhaps a totally different viewpoint.

Thai islands have changed for worse just in last 5 years. For example, Koh Tao around Chalok Ban Kao bay is just horrible, all accomodation has raw sewage smell in the bathrooms and the water in the bay (which wasn't great in 2005) is now absolutely filthy; 5 years ago we had a cheap cute whitewashed bungalow right on white sand on quiet Tong Nai Pan (can't remember Yoi/Nai) beach on Koh Phangam - now the bungalows are gone to make way for upmarket apartment style little blocks way out of our price range, same all along the beach, all swimming pools and package tourists. So sad....everything changes tho, often best not to return to places you loved once! (altho happily did return to Perhentian Besar in Malaysia and found it completely unchanged except for one new set of bungalows and introduction of wifi and mains electric - vibe exactly the same, was so chuffed! But don't think I'd risk going back again as it can't last )

I am often so envious of people such as yourself who saw some of these countries 20 and 30 years ago before too many of us backpackers & flashpackers (and the internet) fecked so much of it up
I agree, each place different when viewed thru eyes of different people - everyone wants different things out of their trip, also everyone travels / hoildays in different ways. For example, my experience of 4 weeks in Burma, travelled completely independantly and off the more common route, was light years away from experience of another woman I met, who unlike me didn't find it rough at all and didn't see anything particularly disturbing, who never saw a squat toilet (all I saw) or anything but decent food (didn't see any!). We both had great experiences and were so happy to have gone - but the picture of Burma we emerged out of it with was totally different.

Oh I do love to travel but right now I am done in! Next trip will be shorter, ideally about 4 months. I think that's enough to keep the momentum going and still see and explore a good chunk of somewhere without being in a hurry. Now, I just want to relax on a beach before getting on with this business of finally emigrating on 25th November

sr71

Yes, I'm glad that I saw the real Thailand which still existed to a large degree back then, certainly in the North East and even places like Hua Hin.

Now Thailand has made great progress and I don't begrudge them that at all, what I really don't like are the huge amounts of 'crude' development going on, the 2nd home brigade, the huge increase in 'sex retirees' and the phenomenon or vulgar mansions being built throughout Isaan by girls wanting to show off whos got the richest husband. I don't believe any of these contribute to Thailand in a positive way.

Plus the Thais are so corrupt that many places have no controls on them and are just ruined.

Seriously, if you want pristine beaches and unspoilt wilderness Australia and NZ beat most of Thailand hands-down now.

the troubadour

Interesting comments and good to get an up to date on various places you have visited as changes are often rather rapid. Just remember in ten years time folk will be saying "Must have been so much better back then in 2009"
Guess that is the nature of the travel game. Rich/corrupt Bangkok developers will continue with their developments to make profit and further erode the cheaper traveller type places that not that long ago was the main stay of Thai tourism. These days they claim to be going up market and attempting to create a new profile.
Still what did surprise me was you finding Thailand cheaper than Indonesia.
Indonesia was always a little hard going as far as independent travel went but more of an adventure as far as i'm concerned as well.
Thailand,Cambodia and Laos is all so well engrained in the backpacker circuit that it seems most folk are doing much the same thing from what i could see
from fairly recent visits from all those countries. Laos is a place i like a lot..
Never been to Burma..but have been close to going a few times ...is the food there so bad?
Perhentian Besar is more the tourist island and more expensive is it not? Kechil was where backpackers tended more to go to.
The jaded feeling you are having is normal being so long on the road.
Hope you find the Gili Islands more to your taste....So Oz is next?

the troubadour

Think a few corrupt Bangkok folk with influence have made shed loads of money...out of tourism with their developments and as usual others gets a few crumbs here and there.
Cambodia has been competing and and would appear to be beating Thailand in attracting persons with pacific sexual whims and cheapness...met a number of foreign ex pats that had relocated from Thailand in part for such reasons.
Laos on the other hand forbids such things by law. So one tends to meet less long term ex pats....

PamE

Yeah we are spending far more here than anywhere else...altho as I said, my stamina is wearing very thin so we are steering clear of many of the cheaper options we would have chosen back in the beginning. That said, you really don't get as much for your money in Indonesia, certainly accomodation-wise. Also, is harder to travel independantly here - we managed to get from Yogyakarta to Bromo ourselves (eventually by hitching from Probolinggo out of desperation) but back down we just gave in and bought a thru ticket to Bali - which was of course a huge mistake anyway cos we had to fight our way out of a bus scam at the port...arghhhh...really don't have the energy for it anymore! Jaded is the right word - and cynical! Very bad!!

Independant travel is the best way, I agree. Am lucky my husband is into the same stuff as me, neither of us mind roughing it and we like to get away from the hoardes. Often tougher, but worth it (altho again, I've had enough for teh time being!)

T,C & L are all on that circuit yeah. Gap year kids got unavoidable in places, often they are irritating, but they are just young and inexperienced and if I'd come over here at that age am sure I'd have been just the same. Wish I had - I didn't go backpacking the first time until I was 30, I so wish I'd started sooner as there is so much left I want to do and other things takes priority at this point, having had yet another bash this year

Def struggled with food in Burma, but mostly it was hygeine issues - at times we just wouldn't eat because there was no running water in the places there was food (this includes in big places like Rangoon where electricty and running water are not a given) it kind of puts you off, also am not big on bugs on sticks and so on (we are by no means fussy eaters and eat street food etc but when you're 27 hours non-stop on buses you don't want to risk an upset stomach!). We did have some good stuff in Rangoon on 2 occasions but put it this way, in 4 weeks I lost about 7 kilos. However, when you see how people live there you just get on with it and boy did we come out of that country thankful beyond measure for everything we might ever have taken for granted before - from running water to freedom of movement & everything in between.

I skipped Kecil in 2005 cos I don't drink and am a wee bit older so am not really into the gap year party island stuff that Lying Planet implied, and I went to Besar instead. Can't compare the prices with Kecil as don't know them, but in 2005 I stayed 5 weeks for not much in a wooden hut thing behind a dive shop on Besar. Was great, and returned for 3 weeks this time and went a bit more upmarket but not too rough financially as they were about to close up for wet season so did a good deal, again with a dive shop.

Yes in 2 weeks we are heading for Oz happily clutching our 475s which we validated back in May. Very excited now - we started working on the visa stuff 3.5 years ago and can hardly believe it's at last about to happen!

Phnom Penh is one of my very least favourite places, largely because there is such a sense there that you can buy anything and do anything, anything at all, if only you have the money. There are signs about child sex tourism everywhere, it is so desperately sad and depressing

PamE

I must add regarding Burma that am sure there is good food in that country (and we did have some nicer stuff in Inle Lake), perhaps we were just terribly unlucky. Also we were travelling at the very bottom of the budget (spent only 800USD in 4 weeks including all food and transport and accomodation for 2 people), doubtless if you cast aside all ethical dilemas and stay in a 5 star government run resort you'll get great food...Also we were staying in a lot of places off the main tourist track, where people are very poor and do not have enought money to be serving chicken breast for example. I really don't want to put anyone off travelling there, it is a fantastic country full of fantastic people who are living as slaves in their own nation, while most of the west either ignores what is happening there, or is ignorant of it, and the rest are powerless to act because of China's strength on the Security Council. Not visiting Burma further isolates these people and achieves absolutely nothiing politically or socially imo.

If anyone interested, pics don't do it justice but here are some of Burma:
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...1&l=c1622c40d5

the troubadour

Further interesting reading. Agree on your sentiments with regards to visiting Burma. Have heard it said that the Burmese people are the friendliest in Asia,very sad what they must endure. As you rightly state with China being so involved with the regeme, there is little chance of change.
As i haven't been seriously travelling in Indonesia for some years now i can see that i am seriously out of date especially when it comes to prices.
With regards to Lonely Planet...it has changed a lot over the years .more mainstream now,but then so are for the most part backpackers. The best book for Indonesia,used to be by Bill Dalton,i think his name was.It was clear he had a deep attatchment for that nation...almost too much detail.Perhaps no longer in print..but it was a great help in 1987..when last travelling rough there. First trip in 1978 had the first Lonely Planet,which was very basic then,called South East Asia on a Shoe String,but known as the Yellow Bible.
Where will you be landing in Oz?
Did you also travel Vietnam i wonder?

PamE

We are using same lonely planet - se asia on a shoestring - altho it's 2008 edition, not 1978 - but still yellow! I am not keen on it, there are signs that it's not been properly updated based on last trip in 2005 book used, also sooooo often the accom is nothing like what LP describes, to point we have given up & use Tripadvisor.com instead. LP can't help that things change fast of course, but with internet resources & wifi I just don't know how things will pan out for LP in coming years. Anyways my next trip, will be taking a Rough Guide instead for reasons also in previous post on this thread about drug comments and so on - each to their own of course but I find LP just a tad cringeworthy in it's efforts to be cool! Showing my age I guess Maps are handy tho & basic general info on city areas is good too.

Landing in Brisbane in 10 days then heading for Coffs Harbour on 28th. Am almost beside self with excitement at this point! Also quite reflective - where have last 7 months gone, all this lovely freedom is nearly over - but at same time ready for action (mostly concerning getting some new clean clothes asap for re-entrance into world of washing machines etc - have been showering & washing clothes in saltwater for a week now and starting to feel a but icky!).

Yeah 3 weeks in Vietnam, was my least favourite, people quite aggressive, that is, those involved in tourism or selling anything, unfriendly, really hard sell, have to haggle everything even water, which can get quite tiring...But yeah, that is regarding people in tourism - of course there are lovely and not so lovely folks everywhere and we were fortunate that our view was balanced by being able to hook up we have a friend in HCMC who has a Vietnamese gfriend, who is lovely and also we met a really nice V couple when we went to Cat Ba island, did a trip with them on Halong Bay, which they suggested and organised, and translated and shared so much info, was v lucky for us to have met them. Everyone says the same about Vietnam tho it seems, about the people, is a shame - have you been, how did you find it?

Kooky.

I loved Hanoi! Only been there and to Halong Bay (which was incredibly touristy, but that's hypocritical of me I know) but I would love to explore it more some day.

PamE

Did you get to go and see Ho Chi Minh? I really wanted to for some morbid reason but apparently he goes to Russia for 3 months Sep to Dec every year for maintenance! Hanoi was actually the least annoying place on whole trip up overland from HCMC - nobody tried to sell us anything at all, which was really bizarre and quite disconcerting, also complete opposite of guidebook warnings and experience of OH a few years before. Suspect the local government has banned hawkers and touts to make things better for tourists (?)
Did you see the roast dog for sale? We found some down a back street, was a horrible shock - especially their little tails!
If you go back to see more Vietnam do go to Hoi An which has a lovely old town area.