Heads up for people looking to book flights to Oz
#1
Heads up for people looking to book flights to Oz
Hi, not trying to be alarmist but a little warning here that prospective migrants should look at the safety procedures of airlines as well as the cost when booking a flight for themselves and their loved ones.
This is from today's Herald Sun Newspaper so hopefully a reliable report.
The article worries me because I have flown Emirates multiple times in the past and I thought they were a reliable and efficient company.
http://www.news.com.au/travel/story/...014090,00.html
You can read the whole article yourselves if interested, but the parts that concerned me were ...
and
also
So not saying dont fly with this crowd, but as a family man who has done the trip back and forth between Britain and Australia many times with my wife and kids, you like to think that you are in the safest of hands.
This is from today's Herald Sun Newspaper so hopefully a reliable report.
The article worries me because I have flown Emirates multiple times in the past and I thought they were a reliable and efficient company.
http://www.news.com.au/travel/story/...014090,00.html
You can read the whole article yourselves if interested, but the parts that concerned me were ...
THE pilot of the Emirates flight that nearly crashed at Melbourne Airport with 225 passengers on board had almost no sleep the previous day and was following the airline's orders to take off at reduced power to save money on fuel.
Several sources told the Sunday Herald Sun that Emirates - like many modern airlines - ordered its pilots to take off at reduced thrust when possible to cut fuel costs, emissions and wear on the aircraft.
The thrust or power settings are determined by factors such as aircraft weight, weather conditions, the surrounding terrain and runway length.
But an Emirates source said the March 20 flight - EK407 to Dubai - was set at the "absolute minimum" thrust, leaving little room for error.
"There was no margin for error," the source said.
Several sources told the Sunday Herald Sun that Emirates - like many modern airlines - ordered its pilots to take off at reduced thrust when possible to cut fuel costs, emissions and wear on the aircraft.
The thrust or power settings are determined by factors such as aircraft weight, weather conditions, the surrounding terrain and runway length.
But an Emirates source said the March 20 flight - EK407 to Dubai - was set at the "absolute minimum" thrust, leaving little room for error.
"There was no margin for error," the source said.
An Emirates source said the airline was in a risky situation because it did not have a culture that encouraged people to voice their safety concerns.
The source said some Emirates pilots were badly fatigued, but people were afraid to speak out.
"There is a limit to how far you can push people," the source said. "Those long-haul flights are really, really fatiguing and demanding.
"But a punitive culture means people are too afraid to speak out.
"Two things, (flight safety and the punitive culture) in my view, that do not match in 2009 and in a major airline.
"A very bad cocktail."
The source said some Emirates pilots were badly fatigued, but people were afraid to speak out.
"There is a limit to how far you can push people," the source said. "Those long-haul flights are really, really fatiguing and demanding.
"But a punitive culture means people are too afraid to speak out.
"Two things, (flight safety and the punitive culture) in my view, that do not match in 2009 and in a major airline.
"A very bad cocktail."
The two pilots involved in the accident were forced to resign 48 hours after they were flown back to Dubai.
Safety Bureau and Civil Aviation Safety Authority officials are thought to be concerned about the action taken against the pilots, but have no jurisdiction to intervene.
Emirates pilots, using false names, have flooded the internet to express their concern about rostering, fatigue and the action taken against the two pilots.
The men are expatriates and at least one has since returned to his home country.
The United Arab Emirates does not allow unions, so more than 2000 Emirates pilots employed worldwide are not covered by a union.
Safety Bureau and Civil Aviation Safety Authority officials are thought to be concerned about the action taken against the pilots, but have no jurisdiction to intervene.
Emirates pilots, using false names, have flooded the internet to express their concern about rostering, fatigue and the action taken against the two pilots.
The men are expatriates and at least one has since returned to his home country.
The United Arab Emirates does not allow unions, so more than 2000 Emirates pilots employed worldwide are not covered by a union.
#2
Re: Heads up for people looking to book flights to Oz
Starting to get some comments from various people about the original article. Some sound VERY scary, and also bare out my thoughts that this is a once great airline going bad. I have read on other forums that Dubai is doing the economic downturn tough with some sort of property meltdown taking place, so maybe they are cutting costs on the flagship airline?
http://www.news.com.au/comments/0,23...014090,00.html
I am currently planning a trip to UK for later this year, and regrettfully, I think I will be scratching these guys off my list. A shame. Singapore Airlines is looking good.
Gravelly of Qld, you are incorrect. Reduced Power takeoffs are the norm, and most airlines do it, primarily to save on engine wear (rather than fuel). In this case, it seems the incorrect weight was entered (100 tonnes or so lighter than the actual weight), so the corresponding thrust was too low. The aircraft then failed the become airborne before it had taken out an ILS antenna and a bunch of strobe lights at the end of the runway. Allegedly it only cleared the perimeter fence by a meter or so. Basically, it was a major human error balls up, which Emirates has handled very badly. My mother was on that flight, and will never fly emirates Egain. Because they screwed up???? No, because they treated her and all the passengers like crap afterwards.
Posted by: Stu of Brisbane 5:00pm today
Comment 12 of 14
Posted by: Stu of Brisbane 5:00pm today
Comment 12 of 14
I am currently planning a trip to UK for later this year, and regrettfully, I think I will be scratching these guys off my list. A shame. Singapore Airlines is looking good.
#3
Re: Heads up for people looking to book flights to Oz
Here are details of an apparently near identical incident:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...?id=20030312-0
Singapore Airlines flight SQ286 taxied to runway 05L at Auckland's International Airport and was cleared for takeoff. When the captain rotated the aeroplane for lift-off the tail struck the runway and scraped for some 490 metres until the aeroplane became airborne. The tail strike occurred because the rotation speed was 33 knots less than the 163 knots required for the aeroplane weight. The rotation speed had been mistakenly calculated for an aeroplane weighing 100 tonnes less than the actual weight of 9V-SMT. A take-off weight transcription error, which remained undetected, led to the miscalculation of the take-off
data, which in turn resulted in a low thrust setting and excessively slow take-off reference speeds. The system defences did not ensure the errors were detected, and the aeroplane flight management system itself did not provide a final defence against mismatched information being programmed into it.
During the take-off the aeroplane moved close to the runway edge and the pilots did not respond correctly to a stall warning.
Who ya gonna fly with now?
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...?id=20030312-0
Singapore Airlines flight SQ286 taxied to runway 05L at Auckland's International Airport and was cleared for takeoff. When the captain rotated the aeroplane for lift-off the tail struck the runway and scraped for some 490 metres until the aeroplane became airborne. The tail strike occurred because the rotation speed was 33 knots less than the 163 knots required for the aeroplane weight. The rotation speed had been mistakenly calculated for an aeroplane weighing 100 tonnes less than the actual weight of 9V-SMT. A take-off weight transcription error, which remained undetected, led to the miscalculation of the take-off
data, which in turn resulted in a low thrust setting and excessively slow take-off reference speeds. The system defences did not ensure the errors were detected, and the aeroplane flight management system itself did not provide a final defence against mismatched information being programmed into it.
During the take-off the aeroplane moved close to the runway edge and the pilots did not respond correctly to a stall warning.
Who ya gonna fly with now?
#4
Forum Regular
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 204
Re: Heads up for people looking to book flights to Oz
a slow boat is looking good !!.......but not the titanic
#5
Re: Heads up for people looking to book flights to Oz
most if not all airlines are giving guidance about 'efficient' take off and cruising - remember the stories a while back about them slowing down the flights to save fuel.
So long as you dont fly with garuda or some dodgy indonesian airlines, or whichever of China or China Eastern is dodgy then you are largely ok with oneworld/star alliance type carriers.
You could get an emirates pilot who flew 100hrs this month, or , a BA Pilot who just left spearmint rhino , take your pick, either way statistically you are more likely to get killed on teh way to the airport than in the air.
I take solace in this as I rack up my 300,000 airmiles each year.
So long as you dont fly with garuda or some dodgy indonesian airlines, or whichever of China or China Eastern is dodgy then you are largely ok with oneworld/star alliance type carriers.
You could get an emirates pilot who flew 100hrs this month, or , a BA Pilot who just left spearmint rhino , take your pick, either way statistically you are more likely to get killed on teh way to the airport than in the air.
I take solace in this as I rack up my 300,000 airmiles each year.
#6
Just Joined
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 13
Re: Heads up for people looking to book flights to Oz
On one of the Aircrash programmes, it was suggested that lower ranked pilots on certain airlines do not feel it is within the rules to warn or alert the higher ranked colleagues. This was put forward as the reason one airlines flight crashed when it ran out of fuel, the "junior" co-pilot did not dare warn the Captain the plane was running out of fuel.
#7
Forum Regular
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 111
Re: Heads up for people looking to book flights to Oz
"An Emirates source said the airline was in a risky situation because it did not have a culture that encouraged people to voice their safety concerns."
here we go again. does qantas union own news.com? they spew crap every time there's an issue with the management or competition. senior emirates pilots are involved in international audits re power distance in the cockpit and trained airliners from delta to korean.
'a source'? puhhleasse. the rope is getting tighter.
here we go again. does qantas union own news.com? they spew crap every time there's an issue with the management or competition. senior emirates pilots are involved in international audits re power distance in the cockpit and trained airliners from delta to korean.
'a source'? puhhleasse. the rope is getting tighter.
#8
Re: Heads up for people looking to book flights to Oz
A preliminary report has been released by the ATSB into the Emirates incident:
EXACTLY as per the Singapore Airlines incident in AKL, take-off weight was incorrectly entered to be 100 tonnes too light, resulting in corresponding take-off speed/thrust being too low.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...00-661,00.html
EXACTLY as per the Singapore Airlines incident in AKL, take-off weight was incorrectly entered to be 100 tonnes too light, resulting in corresponding take-off speed/thrust being too low.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...00-661,00.html
#9
Re: Heads up for people looking to book flights to Oz
A preliminary report has been released by the ATSB into the Emirates incident:
EXACTLY as per the Singapore Airlines incident in AKL, take-off weight was incorrectly entered to be 100 tonnes too light, resulting in corresponding take-off speed/thrust being too low.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...00-661,00.html
EXACTLY as per the Singapore Airlines incident in AKL, take-off weight was incorrectly entered to be 100 tonnes too light, resulting in corresponding take-off speed/thrust being too low.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...00-661,00.html
From your link:
Neither the airline nor the ATSB have commented on why the pilot and first officer of the aircraft were asked to resign in the days following the incident.
#10
Re: Heads up for people looking to book flights to Oz
While we are on the subject:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...00-661,00.html
and not to forget ....
http://www.theage.com.au/travel/trav...0324-97qi.html
It looks like evidence of an organisation with lots of money to throw around, expanding fast, but falling down on the human factors.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...00-661,00.html
While there were no injuries arising from the March 20 tail strike at Melbourne Airport, the company's reputation took a serious blow when aviation officials described the accident as the closest Australia has come to a major aviation catastrophe.
It was not the first safety scare at Melbourne Airport that involved an Emirates plane.
In 2001, the engine on an Emirates flight blew up as the plane was taking off from Tullamarine airport, scattering debris along the runway.
Terrified passengers reported seeing sparks and smoke, but again, there were no injuries.
And in 2004, an Emirates jet was involved in a similar tail strike, which led to its training and rostering practices being criticised by South African aviation safety officials.
In that incident, another Airbus - this time an A340-300 - struck its tail after over-running the runway at Johannesburg airport, wiping out lights as it struggled to get airborne.
It was later found the pilot had used a wrong takeoff technique that he said he had picked up as a training "tip".
It was not the first safety scare at Melbourne Airport that involved an Emirates plane.
In 2001, the engine on an Emirates flight blew up as the plane was taking off from Tullamarine airport, scattering debris along the runway.
Terrified passengers reported seeing sparks and smoke, but again, there were no injuries.
And in 2004, an Emirates jet was involved in a similar tail strike, which led to its training and rostering practices being criticised by South African aviation safety officials.
In that incident, another Airbus - this time an A340-300 - struck its tail after over-running the runway at Johannesburg airport, wiping out lights as it struggled to get airborne.
It was later found the pilot had used a wrong takeoff technique that he said he had picked up as a training "tip".
http://www.theage.com.au/travel/trav...0324-97qi.html
Australian charged over in-flight bomb scare
Paola Totaro
March 24, 2009
British police have charged an Australian man over an alleged bomb hoax that led to the evacuation of an Emirates flight at London's Gatwick airport on the weekend.
The man, Matthew Carney, 23, from Melbourne, was arrested on Sunday after a note was discovered on board an Emirates flight from Dubai to London. The note, found 10 minutes before the flight landed at Gatwick, allegedly suggested an explosive device was on the aircraft.
Paola Totaro
March 24, 2009
British police have charged an Australian man over an alleged bomb hoax that led to the evacuation of an Emirates flight at London's Gatwick airport on the weekend.
The man, Matthew Carney, 23, from Melbourne, was arrested on Sunday after a note was discovered on board an Emirates flight from Dubai to London. The note, found 10 minutes before the flight landed at Gatwick, allegedly suggested an explosive device was on the aircraft.
#11
Re: Heads up for people looking to book flights to Oz
dont you just love google by the way ...
The following ad pops up when I view this thread ...
Ads by Google
Fly Emirates
The Dubai based luxury airline. Over 100 destinations worldwide.
Emirates.com/au
Classic!!!!!
The following ad pops up when I view this thread ...
Ads by Google
Fly Emirates
The Dubai based luxury airline. Over 100 destinations worldwide.
Emirates.com/au
Classic!!!!!
#12
Forum Regular
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 111
Re: Heads up for people looking to book flights to Oz
have you checked with "the emirates source"? it looks like their pilot not speaking up/jet fuel story is full of shit.
sorry buddy but qantas bankruptcy is imminent and assbackward country scare tactics the union is using are not going to save them.
sorry buddy but qantas bankruptcy is imminent and assbackward country scare tactics the union is using are not going to save them.
#13
Re: Heads up for people looking to book flights to Oz
I hope they dont go bust , I'll have to make a decision now about wether to trade my million airmiles for a nice barbeque tong set, or perhaps a fondu. Choices choices....
#14
Re: Heads up for people looking to book flights to Oz
1. Singapore
2. JAL
3. Emiriates
The only reason that I even noticed these articles about Emirates is that they are one of my top 3 choices to fly with. Where does Qantas come into this thread? What is your agenda with your anti qantas rant?
#15
Devil's Advocate
Joined: Feb 2008
Location: Mandurah
Posts: 2,269
Re: Heads up for people looking to book flights to Oz
On one of the Aircrash programmes, it was suggested that lower ranked pilots on certain airlines do not feel it is within the rules to warn or alert the higher ranked colleagues. This was put forward as the reason one airlines flight crashed when it ran out of fuel, the "junior" co-pilot did not dare warn the Captain the plane was running out of fuel.