Cheetah7

Did anyone watch this in the UK?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/fr...00/8842399.stm

I do realise that animals need to be restrained and that a vets/nurses job isnt easy etc, and yes I know that some animals can be difficult to handle.

But how would you feel if this was done to your pet?

I too have witnessed cruelty in practice many years ago when I was a student nurse, and there are always those that will justify it, explain it or bury their heads in the sand whilst declaring 'whistle blowers' damage the profession and things like this should be dealt with internally (yes that has been said).

This may well leave a nasty taste in the mouths of the veterinary profession but honestly, do veterinary staff have the right to do this and is it acceptable?

Kingseat

hhhmmm, I think I will need to pluck up courage to read your link. I don't deal with cruelty to animals very well!

Cheetah7

Some of the feedback I have read from veterinary staff says that the public would be alarmed at 'normal restraining techniques' and some of them have tried to justify what goes on.

But I can tell you now that if you restrained or treated an animal this way for your RCVS exams, you would fail - simple.

I also know that those I spoke to when I discussed the cruelty I witnessed as a student nurse, all said 'Oh well, these things happen - and by publicising it, its causing damage to the profession' and that was said to me on more than one occasion.

Trouble is though, if you are a good vet/nurse then you shouldnt take offence to it. The bad ones need to be named and shamed and yes, there will be a fallout but trying to tell people to keep their mouths shut for fear of pet owners not taking their animals for treatment is in no way a valid reason to not say anything.

If it is not dealt with then it will continue and whilst a majority of veterinary practices and staff are professional and caring there are a small minority that are not, so this must be dealt with, it cant be a case of 'as long as its not my pet' - it is not fair, it is cruel and must be stopped.

Not just for the pet owners trusting the vets with their animals, more importantly for the animals - they have no voice. This isnt about publicly 'attacking' the caring staff, this is about the welfare of the animals that suffer in the hands of people hiding behind their profession.

Lets face it, we all have bad days at work but is it really acceptable to do what they do? And who on earth believes belting a cat/dog round the head will calm it down?

This makes for uncomfortable viewing/reading for many in the profession but from reading what some of the vets are saying, not only does this happen more than people realise or care to admit, it is now time for it to stop to give pet owners the time and opportunity re-build their faith in those they trust to care for their animals.

And if that means airing the 'dirty laundry' of the veterinary profession in public and severely punishing those that do this, then so be it.

northernbird

I downloaded the show to watch and only watched the opening credits and had to turn it off. My SIL is a senior vet nurse and was absolutely mortified as she has worked for the same 2 partner practice for 17 years and has never witnessed such uncaring/cruel behaviour.

Cheetah7

I have locumed for one of the branches of this company and didnt witness cruelty as such but some alarming stuff and would never ever take my pet there at all. What I saw actually put me off locuming for quite some time.

kitty4

Must admit I can't bring myself to watch this at the moment from what you are saying. I know it's burying my head in the sand and from the jist of it I agree with your stance. I can't abide animal cruelty at all.
Still feeling very raw from taking my 18 year old ginger cat to be put to sleep yesterday. I consider myself (our cats) to have one of the best vets on earth and it was all very gentle, quick and caring. Hate to think there are vets and vet nurses out there who really don't care - I would want to physically assault them there and then!!!

Cheetah7

Oh I am so sorry about your cat

I took my ginger cat for his booster the other week, the vet said he needs a dental which he certainly does. I asked for him to have IV fluids and whatever pain relief/antibiotics he needs and have been quoted $580

They seem nice, I have to trust them I guess. I have to save the money for my Gordon to have his teeth done.

There are some damn good places out there and I have worked in a few myself - I take some comfort from that.

I guess there is good and bad in every profession, but its some of the veterinary staff on some forums slating the program as one sided and even belittling the violence saying 'it was hardly belting the dog'.

Yes it did show a bad side to the profession, yes it probably is one sided but there heaps of 'nice' veterinary shows on TV and it is only fair that this needs to be exposed.

A big hug for you for losing your cat, it's horrible when that happens - I dread the day when my Gordon goes.

kitty4

Thanks! I feel the same way about Archie my ginger cat as you do about your Gordon, whose antics I love reading about. I have been on ''standby'' for the last couple of years really, knowing he could deteriorate at any time. He has surprised us how he has soldiered on and enjoyed his retirement here. Being so old and having hyperthyroidism, he couldn't keep any weight on. The day before yesterday he was trotting around, following us in the garden as usual, ate a big bowl of raw cheicken mince - his favourite. But - next morning his legs gave up suddenly - not really any muscle left due to the overactive thyroid, age etc I suppose and the vital organs must also be under strain. He didn't suffer, but it had to be done - as soon as he went off his legs, his food or if he became miserable or suffering, which I'm glad to say he didn't for the latter, we and our vet had decided he had to go while he still had some dignity.
Our vet is so nice - a real cat lover and animal lover in general and I am glad he was the one who were were able to take him to.

Kapri

I've got this recorded - was planning on watching it tonight. I thought it was about vets fabricating procedures to get more money - didn't realise there was cruelty involved

Bermudashorts

OMG we used medivet for the last year or so in UK. One of my cats developed a severe aversion to going there after he went for blood tests related to the rabies shots. They took him away for ages and when they came back made comments about him being "very strong".

Ever since then, when I have just taken him in for his routine jabs, he has tried to sink virtually into the examination table and his tail would be literally between his legs. He has never behaved like that in a vert before and I was told he was as good as gold when he went to a different vets before getting onto plane to Australia.

Poor cat, I wonder if they used unqualified staff to take his bloods. If only they could talk.

I always found them very inexpensive, too cheap really.

eddie007

OK devils advocate... 'unqualified staff' taking blood.... next time you go to your GP in the uk check to see if the person performing venepuncture is also a receptionist... its a simple procedure that most people can be taught to do... when i did my venepuncture course I was learning as a RN alongsid recpetionists, trainee phlebotomists and clerks!!!!!

likewise drug admisnistration.... so long as its the right drug at the right time in the right dose to the right animal with the right documentsation.... its fine... HCAs in elderly care facilities do it all the time... including controlled drugs... that require 2 RNs in other medical settings...

human healthcare has similar issues... and exposes... and questions that need to be answered...

ever had to answetr a complaint of assault lodged by a 'visitor' who witnesses the control restraint of an aggressive pt?.... no.. whacking a dog over the head is a BAD thing to do... and unacceptable under any circumstances... but then is ignoring a pts cries and pleas to be let go when they have assaulted staff and are highly likely to do it again and the medical decision has been made to restrain them chemically... just as bad?

billing people for things that haven't happened is unethical... so is killing pts to benefit from them... ask Harrold Shipman... the world has a number of WRONG people in it... and they pop up everywhere..... we trust vets and their staff just as we trust any health care professional.. don't tar them all with the same brush

Bermudashorts

Eddie I have been taking my cats to vets for years. I know when my cat is traumatised and he has been since that procedure. And actually it is damn painful having blood extracted by someone who doesn't know what they are doing. I for example have very veins, it takes most nurses many attempts to find a vein and I am usually very sore and bruised afterwards.

Anyway excuse me for being concerned about a traumatised cat.

Cheetah7

The thing that is really pissing me off about this issue is the 'old boy network' surrounding the industry.

They are not being tarred with the same brush at all, it is not one sided - there are enough feel good programs on TV about the good that vets do 'Bondi Vet Aussie Hero' springs to mind.

Its the vet nurses saying 'Oh it hardly constitutes a belt does it, it was a tap' and yes, that has been said in the nursing forums.

I trained for two years to become a veterinary nurse, I pay money each year to keep the letters RVN after my name, I study CPD as required by the RCVS and in my years as a nurse I have NEVER raised my hand to any animal.

We as nurses accept the fact that our patients can bite or scratch, we as nurses are also taught the proper way to restrain an animal. Most of us as nurses and vets do things the way we are taught which is why I have such concerns about people thinking a 'light tap' on the head or being heavy handed in restraint is acceptable because they themselves are teaching future nurses and vets.

I am saying that if you did what the staff in that program did to their patients, if you did that in your exams you would fail.

There is an appropriate way to restrain ANY animal that comes into your care and crushing it, or using physical punishment does not come into that criteria.

Tapping, smacking, belting any animal on the head is wrong and I cannot believe some of the veterinary nurses have even justified it. There is a website for vet nurses and heaps of posts stating that they have witnessed cruelty and heavy handed techniques.

My Kelpie loves going to the vet, if someone were to hurt him then I would know.

I dont even think for one minute this program is one sided - on the contrary it has opened a can of worms and the guilty culprits have been exposed and now the public have been given the right to question and make their own decisions on what they may or may not have already suspected.

I am annoyed, I am ashamed that the profession I have trained into has closed ranks and said the program has generalised when it hasnt. It has exposed the bad guys which there are in every profession and people are entitled to feel angry and worried and they are entitled to ask 'Does my vet do that'.

To ignore this as a 'one off', to think 'Oh its not my cat so its fine' is wrong.

I worked with one qualified RVN who said she witnessed a vet smack a stray cat so hard on his scapula after he was hit by a car, that the cat had to be destroyed.

Veterinary staff should not close ranks, they have to speak out - it is not about their hurt feelings, it is not about them feeling embarrassed or victimised, it is about the animals whom are THE most important beings in this situation.

All veterinary staff that are closing ranks and justifying it - are as guilty as those that commit the act.

Not all vets are like it, not all nurses do this but if it is just a small minority then doesnt it deserve publication?

Veterinary staff need to stop taking this as a personal attack and start opening their bloody eyes as to what goes on in their own surgeries, not to mention making their staff follow strict RCVS protocols in restraining something that has no voice, is frightened and probably finding having a person god knows how much bigger than them, crush them to the point it impairs their breathing.

eddie007

There is no excuse for any nurse to take "many attempts" to find a vein... two strikes and you're out is the universal rule... if anyone does more than that you really should stop them... likewise when a RN sees a Dr attempting more than twice then its his/her job to say "stop" advocate for their pt and ask for some one more senior/ experienced to attempt it... It may not be that the nurse "doesn't know what they are doing" simply that you are difficult to bleed... try telling whoever takes your blood that you are a difficult bleeder.. (no pun intended) and before they try tell them that you wont let them try more than twice... anyone who doesn't feel competent will then find some one they know is better at it.... BEFORE they go digging...



The old read one see one do one teach one method has to be stamped out... but people do have to learn... its should be after proper education and under supervision of an experienced person that they practice on pts... be they animal vegetable or mineral....

we have kids in who we 'wrap' to restrain when we cannulate... animals are like our kids... the presence of a parent can calm a child... perhaps insisting on being present during any future intervention would be as well... offer to help restrain the animal yourself...

No way would I let ANYONE do anything to any of my kids without me being present... likewise my pets (even Lecky the hound from hell) dont have anything done without me or my husband being there... and if the vet nurse/ vet or whoever dosn't treat your pet as you like... find another one who will... we've had to do that before now...

Cheetah7

I shopped around with my vet, asked around on recommendation. I had one guy come to the house to vaccinate Gordon and he kept no veterinary records he told me which would have buggered any potential insurance claim up so I go to the one local to me now.

They are not cheap = $600 approx for his dental quote but if you want pre GA bloods, IV fluids, antibiotics not to mention the anaesthetic etc. Veterinary medicine doesnt come cheap and staff/services have to be paid for.

I remember one vet I worked for in London quoted a cat owner 600 UK pounds for her cats surgery, gave her a written quote and then just before he left to go home, he told me the bill was 2,000 UK pounds and not to worry as 'she was insured'.

Another vet I locumed for had his 2 year old toddler running around the theatre while we were trying to remove a foreign body from a whippet, the kid was touching the table/pulling the instruments off the table.

Animals have to be restrained and we have been taught how to do just that but there are ways of restraining and there are ways that are not acceptable. We were taught to towel wrap cats for theirs and your protection, but not to whack a vocalising animal as it recovers from his/her anaesthetic.

One vet I knew, if anyone so much as raised a hand to a patient he would have sacked them - he was one of the kindest vets I have ever met.

I was reading this morning on a vet nurse forum, just how many nurses have witnessed bad practice and not said anything, cats being whacked on the head etc, Medivet is not an isolated case at all - sadly.

One of my friends 'spoke out' and her life was made hell afterwards

We as vet nurses cannot always do things perfectly and the job is difficult but by god there is a fine line between having to towel/restrain/medicate animals by restraint, and smacking them because they are terrified and don't comply with what you want them to do and I bet the RCVS would agree.

I used to pay a woman to walk my whippet during the day (she was an 'established' dog walker with references), and my dog had developed some behavioural issues, I took her to the vet for some neurological assessment and the vet found bruises all over her body and nail marks - human nail marks.

The vet was horrified and asked me who had been hitting my dog and although we couldnt prove it, it was my dog walker who complained that Rema growled at her when she tried to put a leash on her.

I will never forget to the day, the sight of those nail marks and bruises on my tiny whippets body. The dog walker also told another dog walker who turned out to be my best friend, that she frequently 'whacked the dogs'.

No way did I pay that fat lesbian bitchcow monkey Ho, money to beat my little dog and had I seen her, I would have reciprocated those nail marks into her face. (I am getting upset even thinking about it)