Carbon Tax....kiss of death?
Oct 13th 2011, 2:46 pm
#61
Possum. Amiculum. Latrina
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Footloose
Posts: 3,427
Re: Carbon Tax....kiss of death?
I'm still looking for that section of Das Kapital where Marx advocates a worldwide science backed conspiracy to steal wealth from industry and the landed gentry and gift it to the peasants.
Oct 13th 2011, 2:52 pm
#62
...giving optimism a go?!
Joined: Jun 2007
Location: Brisbane (leafy, hilly western suburbs)
Posts: 2,202
Re: Carbon Tax....kiss of death?
Despite personaly believing you may be incorrect on this - I *dont* think it matters that much.
An economy modelled on perpetual infinite consuming growth simply is not sustainable - and whether the reason for attempting to remodel society away from a "Let the money grow" goal to a "Lets not fuck everything up" goal is Anthropomorphic Climate Change, Peak Oil, Saving the Whale or Avoiding starving billions of people doesnt seem to matter that much - the result is the same - we (as a species) need to use less stuff.
Sure a Carbon Tax wont in itself make much of a material difference to any of the above (stopping the baby bonus and encouraging free vasectomies would probably be a more effective way of reducing a populations long term carbon footprint) - but at least its a concession that societies current economic model is broken and priorities need to change.
Eventually the human race will have to face the uncomfortable truth that economics does NOT trump ecology in terms of importance.
I for one am happy that we as a nation are willing to *slightly* screw ourselves financially in an attempt to move towards doing the right thing. I think JG is well aware that she's electorally screwed and has taken the opportunity to try and do something of a tiny step in the right direction - not just for the next 3-5 years of outlook, but for the next 50-100+ and beyond.
An economy modelled on perpetual infinite consuming growth simply is not sustainable - and whether the reason for attempting to remodel society away from a "Let the money grow" goal to a "Lets not fuck everything up" goal is Anthropomorphic Climate Change, Peak Oil, Saving the Whale or Avoiding starving billions of people doesnt seem to matter that much - the result is the same - we (as a species) need to use less stuff.
Sure a Carbon Tax wont in itself make much of a material difference to any of the above (stopping the baby bonus and encouraging free vasectomies would probably be a more effective way of reducing a populations long term carbon footprint) - but at least its a concession that societies current economic model is broken and priorities need to change.
Eventually the human race will have to face the uncomfortable truth that economics does NOT trump ecology in terms of importance.
I for one am happy that we as a nation are willing to *slightly* screw ourselves financially in an attempt to move towards doing the right thing. I think JG is well aware that she's electorally screwed and has taken the opportunity to try and do something of a tiny step in the right direction - not just for the next 3-5 years of outlook, but for the next 50-100+ and beyond.
Oct 13th 2011, 3:03 pm
#63
Proudly Deplorable
Joined: May 2003
Location: Alloha snack bar
Posts: 24,246
Re: Carbon Tax....kiss of death?
Who cares what that prick did or did not write, this is what a carbon tax is
Oct 13th 2011, 3:05 pm
#64
Proudly Deplorable
Joined: May 2003
Location: Alloha snack bar
Posts: 24,246
Re: Carbon Tax....kiss of death?
Despite personaly believing you may be incorrect on this - I *dont* think it matters that much.
An economy modelled on perpetual infinite consuming growth simply is not sustainable - and whether the reason for attempting to remodel society away from a "Let the money grow" goal to a "Lets not fuck everything up" goal is Anthropomorphic Climate Change, Peak Oil, Saving the Whale or Avoiding starving billions of people doesnt seem to matter that much - the result is the same - we (as a species) need to use less stuff.
Sure a Carbon Tax wont in itself make much of a material difference to any of the above (stopping the baby bonus and encouraging free vasectomies would probably be a more effective way of reducing a populations long term carbon footprint) - but at least its a concession that societies current economic model is broken and priorities need to change.
Eventually the human race will have to face the uncomfortable truth that economics does NOT trump ecology in terms of importance.
I for one am happy that we as a nation are willing to *slightly* screw ourselves financially in an attempt to move towards doing the right thing. I think JG is well aware that she's electorally screwed and has taken the opportunity to try and do something of a tiny step in the right direction - not just for the next 3-5 years of outlook, but for the next 50-100+ and beyond.
An economy modelled on perpetual infinite consuming growth simply is not sustainable - and whether the reason for attempting to remodel society away from a "Let the money grow" goal to a "Lets not fuck everything up" goal is Anthropomorphic Climate Change, Peak Oil, Saving the Whale or Avoiding starving billions of people doesnt seem to matter that much - the result is the same - we (as a species) need to use less stuff.
Sure a Carbon Tax wont in itself make much of a material difference to any of the above (stopping the baby bonus and encouraging free vasectomies would probably be a more effective way of reducing a populations long term carbon footprint) - but at least its a concession that societies current economic model is broken and priorities need to change.
Eventually the human race will have to face the uncomfortable truth that economics does NOT trump ecology in terms of importance.
I for one am happy that we as a nation are willing to *slightly* screw ourselves financially in an attempt to move towards doing the right thing. I think JG is well aware that she's electorally screwed and has taken the opportunity to try and do something of a tiny step in the right direction - not just for the next 3-5 years of outlook, but for the next 50-100+ and beyond.
I pay enough tax as it is, and our government wastes so much of it.
Oct 13th 2011, 3:12 pm
#65
...giving optimism a go?!
Joined: Jun 2007
Location: Brisbane (leafy, hilly western suburbs)
Posts: 2,202
Re: Carbon Tax....kiss of death?
I dont disgree - but that doesnt mean that a flawed system shouldnt be changed.
Whether the government budget wastes money or not is a totaly different issue to whether or not we need to seek an alternative economic model.
I'd be perfectly happy to derive all government from some kind of consumption tax - provided that that tax reflected the true cost of consumption.
I'd also be happy to cut a lot of government spending in some areas to reduce the taxation burden on society.
If you want lower taxes, then attack spending patterns - not taxation models.
Whether the government budget wastes money or not is a totaly different issue to whether or not we need to seek an alternative economic model.
I'd be perfectly happy to derive all government from some kind of consumption tax - provided that that tax reflected the true cost of consumption.
I'd also be happy to cut a lot of government spending in some areas to reduce the taxation burden on society.
If you want lower taxes, then attack spending patterns - not taxation models.
Oct 13th 2011, 3:23 pm
#66
Proudly Deplorable
Joined: May 2003
Location: Alloha snack bar
Posts: 24,246
Re: Carbon Tax....kiss of death?
I dont disgree - but that doesnt mean that a flawed system shouldnt be changed.
Whether the government budget wastes money or not is a totaly different issue to whether or not we need to seek an alternative economic model.
I'd be perfectly happy to derive all government from some kind of consumption tax - provided that that tax reflected the true cost of consumption.
I'd also be happy to cut a lot of government spending in some areas to reduce the taxation burden on society.
If you want lower taxes, then attack spending patterns - not taxation models.
Whether the government budget wastes money or not is a totaly different issue to whether or not we need to seek an alternative economic model.
I'd be perfectly happy to derive all government from some kind of consumption tax - provided that that tax reflected the true cost of consumption.
I'd also be happy to cut a lot of government spending in some areas to reduce the taxation burden on society.
If you want lower taxes, then attack spending patterns - not taxation models.
Oct 13th 2011, 3:32 pm
#67
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,555
Re: Carbon Tax....kiss of death?
Poli arrives in power
Poli says to dept cut budget by x%
Dept cuts by x% and loses staff and capability.
Voters complain to poli about loss of service and budget restored
This pattern happens whoever is in power.
The depts are multi billion dollar behemoths that change slowly. They are controlled by public servants who would quadruple their salary in running a private sector organization of a similar size.
It is not that simple and the poli, voter media relationship is partly to blame.
Good administration just sounds so boring to the media.
Poli says to dept cut budget by x%
Dept cuts by x% and loses staff and capability.
Voters complain to poli about loss of service and budget restored
This pattern happens whoever is in power.
The depts are multi billion dollar behemoths that change slowly. They are controlled by public servants who would quadruple their salary in running a private sector organization of a similar size.
It is not that simple and the poli, voter media relationship is partly to blame.
Good administration just sounds so boring to the media.
Oct 13th 2011, 6:14 pm
#68
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,397
Re: Carbon Tax....kiss of death?
) namecalling examples from this forum and the DT blog:hobo plonker, ecotard liar, homo superbus (arrogant man), Met Office's "scientists", idiot trolls, sicko odd ball comi,c, Baa Baa. Run along now Iam, keep up with your flock, blinkered homo centric fantasists, eco-fascists, you trolls, Stalinist elite, Global Warming fanatics, fools, lobotomy drug addicted climate change wallies, The AGW cabal groupthink, the climate trolls on the blog, Idiot Shylock, mendacious, self-satisfied, idiot watermelons, global warming nutjobs,idiots in the climate change industry,gang of cultists,fraudsters pimping this trash,gravy train riding grant vampires,toadies pretending to be scientists,
Oct 13th 2011, 7:54 pm
#69
Possum. Amiculum. Latrina
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Footloose
Posts: 3,427
Re: Carbon Tax....kiss of death?
Despite personaly believing you may be incorrect on this - I *dont* think it matters that much.
An economy modelled on perpetual infinite consuming growth simply is not sustainable - and whether the reason for attempting to remodel society away from a "Let the money grow" goal to a "Lets not fuck everything up" goal is Anthropomorphic Climate Change, Peak Oil, Saving the Whale or Avoiding starving billions of people doesnt seem to matter that much - the result is the same - we (as a species) need to use less stuff.
Sure a Carbon Tax wont in itself make much of a material difference to any of the above (stopping the baby bonus and encouraging free vasectomies would probably be a more effective way of reducing a populations long term carbon footprint) - but at least its a concession that societies current economic model
is broken and priorities need to change.
Eventually the human race will have to face the uncomfortable truth that
economics does NOT trump ecology in terms of importance.
I for one am happy that we as a nation are willing to *slightly* screw ourselves financially in an attempt to move towards doing the right thing. I think JG is well aware that she's electorally screwed and has taken the opportunity to try and do something of a tiny step in the right direction - not
just for the next 3-5 years of outlook, but for the next 50-100+ and beyond.
An economy modelled on perpetual infinite consuming growth simply is not sustainable - and whether the reason for attempting to remodel society away from a "Let the money grow" goal to a "Lets not fuck everything up" goal is Anthropomorphic Climate Change, Peak Oil, Saving the Whale or Avoiding starving billions of people doesnt seem to matter that much - the result is the same - we (as a species) need to use less stuff.
Sure a Carbon Tax wont in itself make much of a material difference to any of the above (stopping the baby bonus and encouraging free vasectomies would probably be a more effective way of reducing a populations long term carbon footprint) - but at least its a concession that societies current economic model
is broken and priorities need to change.
Eventually the human race will have to face the uncomfortable truth that
economics does NOT trump ecology in terms of importance.
I for one am happy that we as a nation are willing to *slightly* screw ourselves financially in an attempt to move towards doing the right thing. I think JG is well aware that she's electorally screwed and has taken the opportunity to try and do something of a tiny step in the right direction - not
just for the next 3-5 years of outlook, but for the next 50-100+ and beyond.
Oct 13th 2011, 8:03 pm
#70
Account Closed
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 14,188
Re: Carbon Tax....kiss of death?
No, I think that she genuinely believes that she is acting in the best interests of the country, and I think this is what is infuriating the electorate - that she just isn't listening to what they are telling her - she is obdurately determined to push through with her agenda irrespective of the wishes of the people.
S
S
Even things like the 'pokie' regulations that are being pushed through.. what has peoples gambling habits got to do with politicians? What is it that makes them even think that it's their business?
Oct 13th 2011, 8:11 pm
#71
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,584
Re: Carbon Tax....kiss of death?
What is it that makes politicians develop that "we know best" attitude?
Even things like the 'pokie' regulations that are being pushed through.. what has peoples gambling habits got to do with politicians? What is it that makes them even think that it's their business?
Even things like the 'pokie' regulations that are being pushed through.. what has peoples gambling habits got to do with politicians? What is it that makes them even think that it's their business?
Oct 13th 2011, 8:26 pm
#72
I'm Old Gregg!
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: A Former Bogan Colony in QLD
Posts: 8,460
Re: Carbon Tax....kiss of death?
"A GST would not happen under my watch"
Back in the day all the polls showed the vast majority of Aussies were against his stance on all of those topics, yet he still pushed through on all of them.
What a topical article I have just found!
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/...508474312.html
Last edited by Broad Shoulders; Oct 13th 2011 at 8:29 pm.
Oct 13th 2011, 8:39 pm
#73
Account Closed
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 14,188
Re: Carbon Tax....kiss of death?
I can understand that they, at times, need to lead people where they may not want to go, but they all seem to get carried away with the power trip and start sticking their noses into peoples affairs, that really have nothing to do with them at all.
Oct 13th 2011, 8:44 pm
#74
I'm Old Gregg!
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: A Former Bogan Colony in QLD
Posts: 8,460
Re: Carbon Tax....kiss of death?
Absolutely it's not a left/right thing, its ALL of them.
I can understand that they, at times, need to lead people where they may not want to go, but they all seem to get carried away with the power trip and start sticking their noses into peoples affairs, that really have nothing to do with them at all.
I can understand that they, at times, need to lead people where they may not want to go, but they all seem to get carried away with the power trip and start sticking their noses into peoples affairs, that really have nothing to do with them at all.
Oct 13th 2011, 8:59 pm
#75
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,584
Re: Carbon Tax....kiss of death?
The point about Stalin is that he was a Totalitarian (as well as being a leftist). Basically you do what you are told and you get told to vote for one party because that is the only one allowed. I am sure Gillard and Brown dream of that every night!
