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Aboriginal experiences
I've watched with interest at many of the recent posts re "sorry". Having spent 3 days on an "indigenous awareness" project last year down in Warnambool, Victoria through an employer sponsored initiative perhaps I can offer what I hope is a balanced viewpoint. Sorry for the long post.
Prior to this I had bugger all knowledge of the aborginal way of life, indeed my exposure was limited to Crocodile Dundee and brief news reports on black fellas up in the Northern Territories sniffing petrol and living in squalor. However these few days offered a completely different and balanced perspective. Whilst many of the true atrocities were perpetrated about 100 years ago, the impact of actions as recently as the 70's have had a devastating effect. I spent a lot of time with a very decent bloke, Lenny, who had his son, Brandon, forcibly removed from him in 1974, when the boy was 4 - and not because they lived in squalor or were being abused. The boy was placed with a white family (english) in Sydney. Brandon was taken to england when he was about 10 when the foster father died and the foster mother could no longer cope in Australia. Brandon grew up in Hampshire. Lenny made many attempts to contact Brandon/foster family and finally tracked them down about 3 years ago. When he was able to contact the foster mother he was told that Brandon died the year before in a motobike accident in Basingstoke. Lenny never got to meet up with his son again. Bizarrely, Brandon was born in the same year as me and is buried in Basingstoke - the town that I spent my last 7 years before coming to Australia. His foster mother still lives there. I spoke with her recently and she confirmed that Brandon gave no indication of being abused or living in squalor. When Lenny described this and his experiences of growing up as a black fella he was clearly angry, bitter and resentful. He maintains that he was constantly victimised and arrested for no reason. However he, and the others that I met do not want to dwell on the past. "Sorry" is important but doesn't change anything. They do not want compensation. They do not want favours. What they want is to be understood. They have been forced to change their cultures and experiences dramatically in such a short period of time. Many aborigines are not comfortable with this. One guy that I met said that he has a wonderful new flat but cannot live in it. He needs to be out and closer to the land. I can't relate to that but respect his view. The folks I met were open and honest about the problems they experience - some of it directed at them (e.g. racial abuse) and others of their own making. They recognise that there is a drug, drink and crime problem. The realise that a minority amongst them give them a very bad name. However given that the vast majority are living in poverty their problems are no different to the problems experienced in every deprived inner city in any country. They do not deny this, but need help that also recognises the reality of the problem. I spent an afternoon with a community project who receive government funding. They readily accept that the aborigine community lack many basic skills and therefore find it hard to comply with the strict government requirements. For example to continue to receive funding and support they need to provide the government with a detailed and structured 15 year plan. That is beyond the capabilities of most of the folk involved - hence they have asked my employers (NAB) if we can assist. Not financial help but expertise in planning and writing, using computers etc. If they fail to comply they lose funding. Giving houses and money alone is not the solution. I'm not sure what is, and I don't think they do either. There were 12 of us on this course, 10 were australian. It was incredible the level of ignorance and the views that had been formed. 9 of the 10 felt completely different having spent 3 days getting a different perspective. Its easy to say that they are a bunch of petrol sniffing criminals who abuse their familes and take money for nothing. Anyway, I now have a more balanced view. It's pointless apportioning blame for things that happened many years ago. However it is important to recognise the devastating effect this has had and the depth of the problems and that there is no easy solution, especially with people who have a culture that is so different to ours. |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
That sounds like it was a really valuable experience for you. At the risk of sounding like some trashy daytime tv show, thank you for sharing it!
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Re: Aboriginal experiences
Good post HS. :thumbsup:
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Re: Aboriginal experiences
Great Post.. as you say a vast majority of Australians and Immigrants are ignorant of what many Aboriginal people have gone through. There is a good short film done sometime in the 1980s i think called Barbequearea which reverses the situation.. blunt but effective.
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Re: Aboriginal experiences
Excellent post Haggis.
Prompted I had a read of : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_generations 'In Western Australia, the Aborigines Act 1905 removed the legal guardianship of Aboriginal parents and made their children all legal wards of the state, so no parental permission was required.' Sobering stuff indeed. |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
Thanks to you all for the comments. I've found an article in The Age that talks about Lennie and mentions his son (embarrassingly I got his name wrong - Lyndon, not Brandon) and a couple my dates/facts were wrong.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...?from=storyrhs |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
Awaiting Quoll's response ....
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Re: Aboriginal experiences
When i did my citizen test, i read a book all about OZ and the Aboriginals. It was intriguing. I never knew anything about them and how they were treated. I am so glad i read the book and understood all about the history of OZ.
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Re: Aboriginal experiences
Great post, and hopefully some food for thought for those that maintain that only abused kids were removed.
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Re: Aboriginal experiences
Originally Posted by haggis supper
(Post 5929260)
What they want is to be understood. They have been forced to change their cultures and experiences dramatically in such a short period of time. Many aborigines are not comfortable with this. One guy that I met said that he has a wonderful new flat but cannot live in it. He needs to be out and closer to the land. I can't relate to that but respect his view.
We have been brought up living in houses. So have our parents, and many generations before them. Imagine that another race were to come along one day, and insist that they knew of a "better way of living". They made us all live outside, on the land. We would find it very hard to adapt and would most probably just end up going back to living in our houses, no matter what we were told. I'm not saying that I can relate to, or understand, the choices that aboriginals make...but I do think we can try and understand. |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
Originally Posted by markallwood
(Post 5929507)
One way to empathise here, is to consider the following...
We have been brought up living in houses. So have our parents, and many generations before them. Imagine that another race were to come along one day, and insist that they knew of a "better way of living". They made us all live outside, on the land. We would find it very hard to adapt and would most probably just end up going back to living in our houses, no matter what we were told. I'm not saying that I can relate to, or understand, the choices that aboriginals make...but I do think we can try and understand. http://dvd.bigpondmovies.com/dvd/297...Barbeque_Area_ |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
brilliant post
hopefully will give food for thought for others |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
The problem is, as you've admitted yourself, you don't think what the government is doing or has done are the things the Aborigines need. But you don't know what they DO need to do.
Until someone offers a better solution, I can't fault people with good intentions. |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
My experiences with Aboriginal people come from living and working in the Kimberley between 1969 and 1972, when I was manageress of a hostel for Aboriginal school children in Halls Creek. I have watched with horror the recent media portrayal of a society given over to child and substance abuse; it wasn't like that in my day!
Time and distance have, I think, given me a certain amount of perspective and allowed me to reach certain conclusions. Please understand that I speak of the indiginous population in rural and remote areas, not city dwellers. In retrospect, I date the start of the slide into the current degredation to the granting of full citizenship in July, 1971. Not that this was a bad step in itself - indeed, it was granted (belatedly) with the best possible motives by the Government of the day. Unfortunately, white politicians and bureaucrats in Canberra were unable to foresee the long-term effects this would have on people who were still living in a predominantly pre-literate and tribal society. In Halls Creek at that time, the majority of Aboriginal people lived and worked on huge cattle stations. Most of these were owned by international companies and were run by managers; few were in private hands or run by local people. The local Aboriginals were given a small wage if they were workers and all were given basic rations but supplemented this by foods gained or gathered in te traditional ways, by hunting and gathering. It was customary for all the station people, white as well as black, to come into Halls Creek for Race Week which was then held in the first week in September. In 1971, they were advised of their rights under the new legislation, which included the right to vote and the right to purchase and consume alcohol, neither of which they had previously been allowed to do. They were also given cheques for backdated allowances and pensions - more money than most of them were able to comprehend. They were also advised that cheques would be forthcoming on a fortnightly basis. Sadly, the majority didn't understand the importance of being given the right to vote; they did see and understand the immediate impact of having the right to drink alcohol and the money to do so. They did not call the legislation Citizenship Rights, but rather Drinking Rights; some even thought that they HAD to consume alcohol. These two factors - the right to drink and the money to do so - meant that the majority of indiginous people didn't return to their station homes at the end of Race Week. One station that had brought 59 Aboriginal people returned with just three. And the township of Halls Creek was not prepared for such an influx. There were no sanitary or cooking facilities, no housing. Furthermore, the children who had lived in the hostel during term time, with two showers a day, three meals and and clean clothing on a daily basis, now had to live with their parents (usually their mother) if she was resident within two kilometers of the school. Yet these parents, for the most part, had no idea how to purchase or prepare commercially available foods; they were not only pre-literate, but pre-numerate. They didn't understand that a portion of their Welfare money was to provide for their children in an acceptably "European" way. And the downward cycle began. I think that only when Aboriginal people are able to build commercially-viable industries, which they control, will the situation really change - and heaven alone knows what those industries could be in places which have few or no resources. |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
Originally Posted by chrispy
(Post 5929524)
That was one of the premises in the film babakiueria.. the white family finally gets removed from their home and dumped in the desert. It is a great film and won an award or two
http://dvd.bigpondmovies.com/dvd/297...Barbeque_Area_ |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
Originally Posted by augigi
(Post 5929577)
The problem is, as you've admitted yourself, you don't think what the government is doing or has done are the things the Aborigines need. But you don't know what they DO need to do.
Until someone offers a better solution, I can't fault people with good intentions. I don't believe this is well intended, simply a case of "this is our policy, you must adhere to it". |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
Originally Posted by haggis supper
(Post 5929683)
Not entirely true. I saw no evidence of the government understanding some of the issues. E.g. "you must create a 15 year plan if you want funding". Frankly I'd struggle to come up with a 15 year plan. But asking a body of people who readily admit that they don't think this way and do not possess the skills to do it is not a viable solution. In the end the plan is ill conceived and helps perpetuate the problems.
I don't believe this is well intended, simply a case of "this is our policy, you must adhere to it". |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
Originally Posted by esperanza
(Post 5929742)
Sounds like death by committee to me.
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Re: Aboriginal experiences
Originally Posted by haggis supper
(Post 5929786)
Working for the NAB has perfectly positioned me to assist with this.
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Re: Aboriginal experiences
I have noted that FACTS seem to be a little thin on the ground on both sides of the "sorry" debate.
I highly recommend a book by Robert Hughes called "The Fatal Shore" http://www.amazon.com/Fatal-Shore-ep.../dp/0394753666 I read it in my first few weeks over here and feel i have a better understanding of this great country's early stages than many locals who are all too happy to regurgitate what they read in the Murdoch press or on Today Tonight. |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
Fantastic post HS... the more people look into the facts, the more sympathy and empathy comes to the fore.
It's so easy for people to go tsk tsk tsk, when they dont know the cause of what they see. |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
Originally Posted by haggis supper
(Post 5929683)
I don't believe this is well intended, simply a case of "this is our policy, you must adhere to it".
What's your solution? |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
Originally Posted by ozzieeagle
(Post 5929999)
Fantastic post HS... the more people look into the facts, the more sympathy and empathy comes to the fore.
It's so easy for people to go tsk tsk tsk, when they dont know the cause of what they see. |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
Originally Posted by augigi
(Post 5930012)
You missed my point entirely. I don't think people can have no suggestions for how to create a solution, and yet criticise those who do try.
What's your solution? |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
Originally Posted by augigi
(Post 5930012)
You missed my point entirely. I don't think people can have no suggestions for how to create a solution, and yet criticise those who do try.
"If you don't have anything positive to say, then don't speak" is nothing more than a defensive retort. It doesn't add value to any discussions. |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
Originally Posted by TheCrone
(Post 5929601)
My experiences with Aboriginal people come from living and working in the Kimberley between 1969 and 1972, when I was manageress of a hostel for Aboriginal school children in Halls Creek. I have watched with horror the recent media portrayal of a society given over to child and substance abuse; it wasn't like that in my day!
Time and distance have, I think, given me a certain amount of perspective and allowed me to reach certain conclusions. Please understand that I speak of the indiginous population in rural and remote areas, not city dwellers. In retrospect, I date the start of the slide into the current degredation to the granting of full citizenship in July, 1971. Not that this was a bad step in itself - indeed, it was granted (belatedly) with the best possible motives by the Government of the day. Unfortunately, white politicians and bureaucrats in Canberra were unable to foresee the long-term effects this would have on people who were still living in a predominantly pre-literate and tribal society. In Halls Creek at that time, the majority of Aboriginal people lived and worked on huge cattle stations. Most of these were owned by international companies and were run by managers; few were in private hands or run by local people. The local Aboriginals were given a small wage if they were workers and all were given basic rations but supplemented this by foods gained or gathered in te traditional ways, by hunting and gathering. It was customary for all the station people, white as well as black, to come into Halls Creek for Race Week which was then held in the first week in September. In 1971, they were advised of their rights under the new legislation, which included the right to vote and the right to purchase and consume alcohol, neither of which they had previously been allowed to do. They were also given cheques for backdated allowances and pensions - more money than most of them were able to comprehend. They were also advised that cheques would be forthcoming on a fortnightly basis. Sadly, the majority didn't understand the importance of being given the right to vote; they did see and understand the immediate impact of having the right to drink alcohol and the money to do so. They did not call the legislation Citizenship Rights, but rather Drinking Rights; some even thought that they HAD to consume alcohol. These two factors - the right to drink and the money to do so - meant that the majority of indiginous people didn't return to their station homes at the end of Race Week. One station that had brought 59 Aboriginal people returned with just three. And the township of Halls Creek was not prepared for such an influx. There were no sanitary or cooking facilities, no housing. Furthermore, the children who had lived in the hostel during term time, with two showers a day, three meals and and clean clothing on a daily basis, now had to live with their parents (usually their mother) if she was resident within two kilometers of the school. Yet these parents, for the most part, had no idea how to purchase or prepare commercially available foods; they were not only pre-literate, but pre-numerate. They didn't understand that a portion of their Welfare money was to provide for their children in an acceptably "European" way. And the downward cycle began. I think that only when Aboriginal people are able to build commercially-viable industries, which they control, will the situation really change - and heaven alone knows what those industries could be in places which have few or no resources. |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
Originally Posted by augigi
(Post 5930012)
You missed my point entirely. I don't think people can have no suggestions for how to create a solution, and yet criticise those who do try.
What's your solution? I spend 3 days on an "experience" and you expect me to propose a solution ?! My point is that there are departments of people in government who are paid to understand the issues and make sensible decisions. I've given one example of a ludicrous requirement which appears to be a "tick the box" exercise rather than tackling the problem. |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
good thread this HS, im enjoying it. ;)
nice to see a real thread now and again:) |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
Originally Posted by esperanza
(Post 5930068)
I don't think someone has to have a perfect solution in order to be able to identify flaws in an existing plan. The identification of problems is the first step in improvement.
Originally Posted by markallwood
(Post 5930142)
Why do you think that way?
"If you don't have anything positive to say, then don't speak" is nothing more than a defensive retort. It doesn't add value to any discussions.
Originally Posted by haggis supper
(Post 5930228)
I spend 3 days on an "experience" and you expect me to propose a solution ?!
My point is that there are departments of people in government who are paid to understand the issues and make sensible decisions. I've given one example of a ludicrous requirement which appears to be a "tick the box" exercise rather than tackling the problem. I'm just saying, there's no point posting your "experience" and coming to exactly no conclusions. Lots of people can point out the errors of the government's ways, but that's not at all helpful. I was merely asking, in your opinion, as you have claimed to have a good understanding of the issues, what solutions you propose to the problems? I don't "expect" anything from you, and certainly not a "perfect solution". Neither did I say anywhere not to say anything if you have nothing nice to say. What hope is there for reconciliation when people can't even discuss this without being jumped on? |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
kiss everyone of them?
might work:unsure: |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
Haggis, thanks for posting this, it is very interesting. It is always good to have a balanced view.
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Re: Aboriginal experiences
I am doing a copy and paste of one of my own posts here. Its a subject(one of few) that I feel strongly about.
As some of you may remember when rabbit proof fence and similar films/books get mentioned Seang usually refers to the "orphans" (many were not orphans) sent over to Aus. Usually my point being that it was not just Aboriginal children that were mistreated or taken and yet the white europeans that were sent over get very little if any "mediafication". Very little was ever done for these people (many now dead). I was forwarded this article from the Sunday Times that was published this weekend you may like to read. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2139344.ece |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
Am I the only one who finds it hypocritical that we try to change other cultures to be more like our own, yet our way has so many holes in it you could strain rice?
"You shouldn't live on the land, you should live in a house. It's simpler and will make your life a lot more comfortable. That's what we do, it's what we've always done. Join us. Just remember to pay your council tax, your mortgage and your bills on time. If you have bad credit and can't make payments on loans you've taken out, your house may be ceased by the bank. This means that the bank will take your home from you and sell it as means to pay off your debt. If the money from the sale of your home still does not cover your debt, you will be made to pay the difference or be put in prison for an extended amount of time dependant upon the amount you owe. When you come out of jail you will be broke and homeless. Then you'll be in the street earning coins, chasing cars and biting tyres. People will judge you and tell you to get a job. You'll need a source of income if you ever want to get back on that property ladder, tiger ;). " Why can't we just sit down and leave people alone? |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
Originally Posted by augigi
(Post 5930685)
Good lord, you people are pretty defensive. Is this not a discussion board? For er.. discussing things?
I'm just saying, there's no point posting your "experience" and coming to exactly no conclusions. Lots of people can point out the errors of the government's ways, but that's not at all helpful. I was merely asking, in your opinion, as you have claimed to have a good understanding of the issues, what solutions you propose to the problems? I don't "expect" anything from you, and certainly not a "perfect solution". Neither did I say anywhere not to say anything if you have nothing nice to say. What hope is there for reconciliation when people can't even discuss this without being jumped on? Sorry. Like you said, it is a discussion board so I thought I was allowed to do that. |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
Excellent post / thread. I just got confirmation today of my booking on a two day cultural awareness course in the Pilbara at the start of July. So long as I don't have to eat Witchety grubs;) I am really looking forward to it.
My first exposure to aboriginals was on a holiday down under 5 years ago. I saw those busking in the street in Melbourne and the museum guide in Adelaide who was half-caste and felt a mixture of pride and shame, it seemed, to have integrated to western culture so well. We saw some families going "walkabout" on the Ghan train and were impressed by their preparation for the trip. In New Zealand we saw how the whites and Maori's have integrated relatively well. Then in Sydney / Melbourne we heard about the way settlers treated them worse than animals and how the government didn't even recognise them as humans until the 60's or 70's. We went home feeling sorry for these people, like you might for any race pushed out of their homelands. Months later, at a family barbecue, we met an Aussie guy who was back in the UK for the first time in years and when we expressed our pity for the aboriginals were shocked by the foul-mouthed abuse directed towards them (though he did respect Sam for getting drunk and having a slanging match with him:D) Now we live here in a city my main exposure to Aboriginals is generally to the drunks hurling abuse or smelling of BO in the city or on the train. I must confess my first reaction was to fear / dislike them. But on reflection I see many more white people pissed and abusive or stinking on the train. I am proud to work for a company that goes out of their way to support the indigenous Australians. We spend a lot of time and money with welfare / training programmes in the Pilbara, have employment targets etc (Ok, some of this is PR-related but much more than that). We even offer work contracts that allows the indigenous to give short notice so they can go walkabout for months at a time. All things said, it must be really hard for the aboriginals to know what to think. Do they look enviously at us wealthy people going about our way in fancy cars, nice clothes etc; do they hate us for muscling in on their nation; do they look at "us" with disdain that we give them money for nothing so they can go on the piss for free (I enjoy that too at sundowners;)) or do they regret that a proud tradition that has enabled their kind to live off an inhospitable land for 10's of thousands of years is being eroded? Probably all of the above, and unable to reconcile those different feelings. |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
Originally Posted by worzel
(Post 5930986)
Excellent post / thread. I just got confirmation today of my booking on a two day cultural awareness course in the Pilbara at the start of July. So long as I don't have to eat Witchety grubs;) I am really looking forward to it.
My first exposure to aboriginals was on a holiday down under 5 years ago. I saw those busking in the street in Melbourne and the museum guide in Adelaide who was half-caste and felt a mixture of pride and shame, it seemed, to have integrated to western culture so well. We saw some families going "walkabout" on the Ghan train and were impressed by their preparation for the trip. In New Zealand we saw how the whites and Maori's have integrated relatively well. Then in Sydney / Melbourne we heard about the way settlers treated them worse than animals and how the government didn't even recognise them as humans until the 60's or 70's. We went home feeling sorry for these people, like you might for any race pushed out of their homelands. Months later, at a family barbecue, we met an Aussie guy who was back in the UK for the first time in years and when we expressed our pity for the aboriginals were shocked by the foul-mouthed abuse directed towards them (though he did respect Sam for getting drunk and having a slanging match with him:D) Now we live here in a city my main exposure to Aboriginals is generally to the drunks hurling abuse or smelling of BO in the city or on the train. I must confess my first reaction was to fear / dislike them. But on reflection I see many more white people pissed and abusive or stinking on the train. I am proud to work for a company that goes out of their way to support the indigenous Australians. We spend a lot of time and money with welfare / training programmes in the Pilbara, have employment targets etc (Ok, some of this is PR-related but much more than that). We even offer work contracts that allows the indigenous to give short notice so they can go walkabout for months at a time. All things said, it must be really hard for the aboriginals to know what to think. Do they look enviously at us wealthy people going about our way in fancy cars, nice clothes etc; do they hate us for muscling in on their nation; do they look at "us" with disdain that we give them money for nothing so they can go on the piss for free (I enjoy that too at sundowners;)) or do they regret that a proud tradition that has enabled their kind to live off an inhospitable land for 10's of thousands of years is being eroded? Probably all of the above, and unable to reconcile those different feelings. M |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
Originally Posted by seang
(Post 5930852)
I am doing a copy and paste of one of my own posts here. Its a subject(one of few) that I feel strongly about.
As some of you may remember when rabbit proof fence and similar films/books get mentioned Seang usually refers to the "orphans" (many were not orphans) sent over to Aus. Usually my point being that it was not just Aboriginal children that were mistreated or taken and yet the white europeans that were sent over get very little if any "mediafication". Very little was ever done for these people (many now dead). I was forwarded this article from the Sunday Times that was published this weekend you may like to read. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2139344.ece When I first came here I met an old woman who had been sent out here, from the UK, when she was 13 years old. She had a very sad tale to tell. M |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
Originally Posted by augigi
(Post 5930685)
Good lord, you people are pretty defensive. Is this not a discussion board? For er.. discussing things?
I'm just saying, there's no point posting your "experience" and coming to exactly no conclusions. Lots of people can point out the errors of the government's ways, but that's not at all helpful. I was merely asking, in your opinion, as you have claimed to have a good understanding of the issues, what solutions you propose to the problems? I don't "expect" anything from you, and certainly not a "perfect solution". Neither did I say anywhere not to say anything if you have nothing nice to say. What hope is there for reconciliation when people can't even discuss this without being jumped on? I never suggested that I had an answer - I said that I hoped to offer a balanced viewpoint. It appears that most folk have only negative experiences or preconceptions about the aboriginal community, as I did. I merely offered my own personal experiences and how that had changed my view. I love how you expect a neat little solution based on my 3 days. You should work in government - "right then Mr Haggis, what shall we do with these black fellas? You know them. Come on man, what do we do?" |
Re: Aboriginal experiences
Originally Posted by Bordy
(Post 5929322)
Good post HS. :thumbsup:
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Re: Aboriginal experiences
Originally Posted by augigi
(Post 5930685)
What hope is there for reconciliation when people can't even discuss this without being jumped on?
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