Anlowi

okay, I am staying in the uk now and never going NZ. Cheers.

ACE

Hi Wilf,
Perhaps I wasn't clear but I do feel that culture is important and in my time I found myself frequently moved but the point I was trying to make, perhaps somewhat clumsily, is that the enjoyment of ones family and nature is no less a noble a persuit than the enjoyment of culture. My coments about peoples attitudes to culture was by no means intended to be exhaustive it was based on my own observation and on second reading do come across as being a bit cinical. I don't feel that all people who enjoy culture only do so to brag about it just many of the people I have met in my professional capacity. The automaton comment was perhaps extream.

I feel that both are important but I just felt it was unfair to label peoples attitudes as limited for wanting to enjoy the simpler things in life.

As you say we are both very different people, what a boring world it would be if we were all the same.

Kind Regards
ACE

southerner

Anlowi,

I'm assuming you are not serious? and perhaps like me the previous post didn't quite fit with our own recollections of our NZ education.

The facts remain, NZ's education is of a world standard (I think a recent quoted stat was 3rd on world literacy table), and the high school education in particular is in my view more rounded.

I think comparing what kids around the world do in any particular year is not right. We know that UK kids start school early (some as young as 4), and there is a lot of debate about the merits of this. The true comparisons is on the end product, when they leave schooling are they prepared for tertiary education, work and other things.

It amazes me that English kids spend their last 2 years at school specialising in 3 subjects only. Saw that Prince William did only 2 subjects in the end. Perhaps I misunderstand the English system.

My own NZ education included 6 subjects at 6th form level and 5 at 7th form, and it was almost obligatory that English and at least one Maths were included (almost I say, because I opted out of English for 7th form, Shakespeare just was not my thing, and still isn't). Doing media studies was not an option, although maybe it is now.

I'm not saying that muppetking is wrong. Just that it does not fit with my own experiences, and with anecdotal views I have received from NZ teachers working in England.

Wilf

Your reply is very nice and you take a very warm tone. Thanks for that. It is respected by me, as are you.

I do not think it is more "noble" (that was your word, not mine, remember ACE?) to do any one thing over another, as long as no-one is hurt, but I suppose I do believe that the majority of one's time (even with kids) should be spent on things that stretch you as a human and make you think, if only because then the times when you just "muck about" are more fun because they are a change. I, and most people I know, would be very bored just spending time at a beach or park more than one time in three, say. On the other 2 occasions, I would prefer to see something interesting or do something "productive" (which may include going to something out of doors, yes, but would not be just to "be" outdoors). In the end, writing it like this, makes it sound like it is all very regimented, but it is not, I am just trying to give an idea of my idea of balance. I have spent most of my life working outdoors and living outdoors and so perhaps the idea of just being "out" for the sake of being "out" has been exhausted.

You will find when you get here that your kids (if they have as active minds as most) will get bored (especially in teenage years) with the beaches and the parks and will yearn for more stimulation. So sure am I that the novelty will wear off for them that if we were in the pub now instead of on this thing, I would bet you 100 dollars and on my pension I would not risk it if I was not sure. Indeed, I will go further and say that I would bloody well hope your kids will get bored with beaches and parks because the world needs young people to press on with the work, especially now, and repair the damage done to society's infrastructure over the last 30 years since generally people have been coasting along on the achievements of others and it is all running out of momentum now. Your kids will have a harder life than you and will need to work very hard indeed if they are to get to the position in life you got to because the current and recent past generations have flogged away their future (privatisations, letting go of hard won work rights, underfunding the welfare state, ruining the environmenrt and atmosphere, etc, etc, etc) so they will have less time for play when they are grown thanks to all the play going on now. The world does not need more 30 year olds playing, it needs more 30 year olds trying and thinking.

My central point is that to make the beach and the park and just being "out" your aim in life is a limited aim because it pays little due to the part of your body that scientists say consumes the most energy and seems to be the very reason we have evolved to be the way we are - our wonderful minds. And these minds, in all their variety, are why I prefer people to places and find them much more interesting.

Anlowi

Southerner,

Thank you for that. I like positive people! I am not expecting the other side of the world to be anything like England, how can it be - it's the other side of the world! I just want to go with as much info as possible to help settle all my kiddies. My recollections of NZ schooling are really good ones, albeit some years ago now, and I now have my own business, so it must have done me some good.

I am just getting a little tired now of hearing people accuse NZ of not doing a proper job at things, or copying England. I think NZ looks at the rest of the world and pick out what they see works best. And they do things differently because it is a different country. It seems many people are looking for England with sunshine, instead of accepting NZ for what it is.

I think I will take a break from this website for a while now, it sends emotions up and down every time I read it. But thank you for your encouraging post, I will print it off and read it every time I have doubts, from Anlowi.

Megalania

People go through stages and phases like the moon and sometimes in synchrony with it. What's wrong with a beach phase?

Drink it in !

Wilf

I realise it is much more useful to arguments against what I am saying for me to never go to the beach and to say that going at all is a waste of time. Sadly, I am not so simple as that. I go to the beach (beaches) to paint and walk with my wife very regularly, and after an hour or so we have had enough and go home unless I am painting and then I stay all day. Beach is best little and often so that it does not get too dull and life gets too pointless and childlike. And before anyone says "We all need to be more like kids", I totally and utterly disagree and it is the modern trend for adults to try to be like their kids rather than the other way round that is responsible for a lot of the problems that everyone (especially on here) moans about in the modern world all the time). Kids are kids and when I was a kid, I was a kid (though not like today - at work by 15). However, kids not only need adults to be adults, they want you to be. I have worked with young people who were getting in trouble with the police and I have had a lot of local success by encouraging them to become more responsible and help themselves (because the adults are too busy playing to have the time to help these kids). I am sick of hearing on this site and all over these days "I am going for the easy life", "I am 35 and work too hard, I am going to Oz for a laid back life." There is not the option to become laid back before retirement if the world is to even stay a reasonable place to live. On the contrary, Oz needs to be built - there are not enough laurels to rest on. When I came here, we came to build and start - our conversations were full of what we were going to invent and construct, not what the bloody beaches were like. No-one wants to do the work any more and thank god for them there is the work of the past for them to sun their arses on.

Megalania

So, here it is at last, hopefully laid plain.

There was once a golden age a decade or three back where Australia was the land of the Long Weekend when life was breezy. Cruising on a global tide of favourable trade.

Then the tide ebbed. The marketeers invented new ways of vacuuming peoples pockets. A glorious future of bigger houses and flashier cars will be your lot if you will but hand over more working hours, and your wife's too if you please. Don't worry, we have new toys to keep the kiddies amuzed. And the taxman noddeth.

So now the workers are stressed and want some sun and beach or long walks in tall timber or a year free of immediate care.

And why not take some "time out"? Recharge and charge back into the fray, but having had time to decide which fray to charge. Or even if frays are a good thing.

Wilf

There have been other ways of running the world and there will be again, even if just because there will have to be. Capitalism is relatively new and only suits a few and can only ever suit a few. It is like a see-saw and I am amazed that this is not more clear to more people. The end of work is predicted and then capitalism's shortcomings will be too clear for westerners to stand.

This system is inherently destructive, inherently short term, and inherently unsustainable. I do not support schemes that require some to be poor in order to make others rich and it may be a surprise to you that such a set up makes people feel a desperate need to escape, but not me.

Megalania

People are inherently destructive, inherently short term, and inherently unsustainable. But we are talking to and about the small cogs in the system, you, me and other posters and how to deal with what is.

I say if beach is your thing, soak it in until you have had enough or arrange a drip feed if you prefer.

I grew up with hills to ramble and beaches to gambol so I had a goodly share of both from the age of a toddler and now beaches mean nought to me. Some did not. They may need or want a more intensive charging up and good luck to them.

hamiltonnz

Wilf the problem with your arguments are that they are always extremes. You cant seem to find any middle ground. Life is full of compromises as and the middle ground is usually(not always tho) the best. Dosnt mean youre a boring unimaginative sheep following the flock or not passionate about anything, but its usually the most sensible place to be. It s not a question of soaking up the sun and starving to death without money, nor is it Oz is worst and UK is best or vice versa. Its not a question of being near the beach so you can spend every waking moment lying in the sun there. But the beach and the sea can be therapeutic and stress relieving, and its pleasant to walk along. Its uplifting to wake up to a sunny day. Theres alot less stress if you dont have to spend hours jammed in traffic. Alot of people are prepared to sacrifice some money for these things. Its taking the middle ground. Dosnt mean theres no problems in Oz. Dosnt mean theres no traffic jams in Oz or that you dont get stressed in OZ. Theres aspects to OZ & NZ life in general I think that makes it easier to balance out your priorites, slow down a bit perhaps, smell the flowers and yes even enjoy the rain - maybe move over into the slow lane for a bit. I think alot of those who emigrate are looking to do that somewhere else because its not that easy to do where they are. And theres nothing wrong with that. I dont pay alot of heed to never ending and monotonous extreme views which only ever present one side of the argument. Dosnt mean I dont read your posts Wilf - everones input is worth reading but how about giving us some of your positive experiences in Aus. I wont hold my breath tho. Graham

Wilf

It seems to me you are not reading what I write at all. My last post extolled the virtues of going to the beach, for example, but I also said what I believe to be the way to get a balance. My ambition in life is not yours but unlike your good self, I am not concerned to persuade you to change but just put my own views down. Your "life in the middle lane" is one of many approaches. It is not mine and so you see my approach as wrong. You are narrow minded. Your comment "usually the most sensible place to be" - for YOU old son, not everyone. I am glad that many people in our history did not choose the middle path - we are not all out for a "quiet" life you know. I intend to have a quiet death, but an interesting life and I like to live away from the middle way, it is more stimulating. You set your standards and do not worry yourself about mine. I find you very limited in your outlook and, like many kiwis, you are very sure that it is the only way. Learn to be more tolerant of others and do not try to sum up the whole of hmann existence and what is the best way to live when you are still only in your 40s. You have a lot to see yet, if you allow yourself the chance and stop seeing yourself as in a position to sum up life already. Keep your book open for a long time yet.

That is one reason why NZ is such a dull place with only the occasional Richard Pearse to make the kiwis feel like they are alive every now and again. You know Richard Pearse did not even gain powered flight and yet he is a great hero for the kiwis because he dared to try and dared to be different.

deedee

quote wilf... I find you very limited in your outlook and, like many kiwis, you are very sure that it is the only way.


kettle calling the pot black or what.How old are you?Are you the all knowing eye?I think not

muppetking

Those stats were posted by me and the UK rated as highly as NZ. Interestingly though NZ had a far longer 'tail', where the disparity between the higher order readers and the strugglers was very marked and a cause for concern.
I don't doubt for a minute that your recollections were positive and that your school life was great. I cannot speak about NZ High Schools, just primary up to Yr 8. By my experiences are none the less valid too. Shame on those who only wish to hear the positive.......why not contact the Ed. Ministry, they would tell you how wonderful they are and you can then ignore anything I have to say because it's so unpalatable.
I suspect your anecdotal 'views' are from Kiwis working in London! Not a representation at all I might say.

rickandkara

I don't very often post but I've been keeping up with this thread. Graham I think the way you put over your opinion is very well constructive but not 'if you don't agree with me I'll write a longer post'.
We plan to change one lifestyle for another, we're moving to Napier with the intention of working as hard as we do in Manchester England but hoping that where we enjoy our free time with the children will be in better surroundings. I enjoy nature, beaches and walks.