kevinbloomfield

Surely though by taking away peoples rights makes the Workplace laws shite? Employers here seem to have the upper hand at all times, the employees have bugger all rights and a large percentage of people work on a crappy casual basis with no holiday pay or sick leave.
If there is one thing in Australia that is crap it has to be the employment situation.
The problem with the election is that Aussies hate any sort of change, they'd rather continue as they are (we don't do it like that over here) so I'd be suprised if Kevin Rudd gets in. They say that Labor makes the interest rates high, but interest rates have nothing to do with political parties. Also they seem scared of union powers. Unions exist to help the working man (and woman), the only people they should scare are dodgy employers.

Any work contract that allows you to sign away rights to overtime, holiday etc has to be a bad thing for employees

moneypenny20

Just read the link thanks. It still doesn't find me people that people KNOW. Not reported, not stories that 'would appear' etc. All those cases say they have been unfairly treated but I don't know that. I don't know what they were like in their jobs prior to the new legislation. It's like people coming on here and saying their husband is being a bastard because of x, y and z. Everyone jumps on the bandwagon and slates the guy but none of us KNOW what was/is going on in the relationship or how the poster behaves.

I'm not being argumentative, I just want to really understand what's going on here. I rarely believe anything I read or see in the media until I know for a fact they are telling the truth. Not just making much of it up.

Vim Fuego

Exactly, what if it all turns sour and the Plasma TV sales drop? Who looks after the people that are most vulnerable? Certainly not Howard and I can't even think about Costello on such a nice day ...

Workchoices is the thin end of the wedge and is just a precursor to more wide-ranging reforms that will be forced on people.

Come on people, vote the scum out.

Wendy

I don't know anyone.

The workchoices has actually improved my OH's job as they weren't paying them enough O/T rates for weekends. They've now had to change that and pay them the going rate. For other people that I know, it's not changed anything really - they go to work, they do their job, they get paid.

After saying that though, I do think they are a bit ott. They need to find somewhere in the middle of workchoices and unions.

kevinbloomfield

You don't have to personally know anyone to make comment, the statistics are there (on a government web site). As to Wendy's OH, why wasn't the employer paying overtime rates and why have they gone over to Workplace choices?

If you ask any business owner they'll be in favour of Workplace choices (and Howards government) - why do you think that is? certainly not to improve anything for employees

Wendy

They were paying O/T rates - just not enough

They've given everyone an AWA to replace the ones they were on. Don't know why they've changed it as it's more or less the same as the last one. Only thing it says different is that they won't recognise a union and any greivances need to be made through the company or the workplace people.

My OH is pretty lucky, as his employers are fair, they look after their staff and pay decent wages - mind you they are a German company

moneypenny20

Obviously anyone can comment but statistics mean sod all in my book. Just because someone says they have been unfairly dismissed doesn't mean that they have been. Are the courts filling up with people who have been dismissed under this new law, who did a damn good job before?

Business owners would be in favour if it means they don't have to bow down to a bolshy trade union (not saying they are all trouble, but obviously some are). If they are now able to get rid of incompetent workers easily then that has to be good for business in some instances.

I am just trying to see the big picture, not just the one the trade unions are trying to flog.

pendleman

[QUOTE=moneypen20;5572258]Just read the link thanks. It still doesn't find me people that people KNOW. QUOTE]

Half a dozen people who I worked with were dismissed under workchoices... they were management and senior staff doing a good job most of them, it was just a cost cutting exercise. Probably had to happen due to rising costs. Eventually they will have to be replaced.
I know one who thought it was great as it help pay for his uni fees. although in many cases there wouldn't be a payout I suspect?

Its not mgt and senior staff who will be injured by this legisaltion its the unskilled, your kids, or your grandchildren etc. Anyone who hasn't got the ability or experience to defend themselves. At the risk of being partisan its a nasty piece of legis.

Amazulu

The unions/left-wing/ALP (all the same thing really) have run a very successful camapign against Workchoices - to such an extent that it has probably won them the election.

The unions are dead set against WC as would mean the end of them as an effective force.

jad n rich

Even before workchoices australia had a casual labour force of up to 40%, employees on casual even if they had been working for that co for decades, no rights, on the roster one week,no work the next, no hols, no sick pay etc. It also had/has a huge workforce on contracts, again no hols, no sick pay etc, if and when type work, not steady at all.

Permanant employment with the sort of rights you get in the UK is hard to find, even gov, nursing, teaching are often on contracts.

Workchoices has made all this worse, and brought what was already happening for decades into the spotlight.

Answer to MP's question, Employees at my part time work are now on a lower rate than those of us employed yonks ago, sons employer is using the cheap labour from 457 visas to put off aussies and bring in people at $15 an hour and partners last contract went from a 5 day week to 6 (often did 6 but never in the contract) , then they tried to haggle out superannuation. Luckily few other people are qualified for that sort of work and they were swiftly told where to jam it, however not everyone is in that situation.

sonlymewalter

Australia is going through exactly the same as UK during the 80's.

No one wants change, unions too powerful, too many sick days off [seen as an entitlement], competition with Asia more difficult, export Vs import, and requirement to compete on world stage re GDP problematic.

The only way to improve is to a) make employees accountable b) make employers responsible. This can only be done through Howards reforms and he has had to give the power to the employers to begin with.

Employers [just like in UK] have abused their powers, resulting in them now being taken to court where test cases will libel them bad employers and with heavy fines this will set examples moving fwd.

Workchoice legislation has also just been changed to ensure there is no employee abuse by employers. Employers are now no longer allowed to make disadvanaged changes to employees. If an employer wishes to enforce new workplace changes which are likely to cause any disadvantage in any way to employees, the employer must first put these proposals fwd in writing to be assessed. The assessment will determine a) real benefits to business b) benefits to consumer c) whether warranted and if this is to disadvantage the employee, then how and also the appropriate compensation [which wil not make the company go bankrupt]

At the end of the day, business's need to progress and sometimes this disadvantages the employees. There needs to be a balance and the new workchoice reforms re-addresses this. Whilst Aus has a long way to go before it get's it right, bringing labour in to allow their union bully boy tactics is going to be more problematic than the current situation. If unions rule the roost, business's will fold due to the raise in costs of any proposed change. Also the economy will be less buoyant / less strong. That too will result in fewer jobs.

Howard needs to continue to keep business's in line. Employers need to be educated in how to run a business and take responsibility for their actions and employees need to work smarter and not take as many days sick.

Whilst Howard is a lying shit [comes with the territory] , if smarmy Kevin and the unions get in then this country will be a political minefield and the fights in the playground will just get worse

themerlin

One of the reason for a large casual labour force was becuase of the old system, it was so difficult to get rid of a full time employee that they didn't hire them.

Not saying that I'm pro WC but the old system seemed worse.

rabsody

No arguements here, bring on Saturday ....

renth

Bring it on! I think it will be a lot closer than people are expecting though...

moneypenny20

Is that not a good thing?

That's fairer though presumably for those of you who have been there for ages? Obviously the new ones don't like it though?

Is that good or bad for him?

Thanks for that. Am starting to get my head around it, but am thinking that it suits lots whilst not suiting lots and definitely not suiting the trade unions.