Why Priority?

Old Mar 5th 2002, 8:06 pm
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Default Why Priority?

Hi all,
new to this, a mate of mine said this was a good board to check out as I am recently from Perth and will return - hopefully (although definately not Perth) - next year. My question is why are IT pros being fast tracked into the great country down-under? Speaking as an experienced analyst I have personal and bitter experience of the wasteland that is the Australian IT market at the moment (thats why I'm here). Has everyone gone mad or what!!!!
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Old Mar 6th 2002, 1:46 am
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I know what you mean. I reckon it will be changed soon enough. Once the government gets its head out of its arse. There are definately NOT alot of IT jobs here. Even before sept 11th.
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Old Mar 6th 2002, 5:35 am
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"onlyme" == onlyme <[email protected]> writes:
    > I know what you mean. I reckon it will be changed soon enough. Once the government
    > gets its head out of its arse.

I wouldn't bet on that. I have my own theory on this, which is that the priority
service is not maintained by an actual shortage but by the lobbying of industry which
wants to lower IT costs. Just my $0.02 conspiracy theory.

    > There are definately NOT alot of IT jobs here. Even before sept 11th.

I was talking to an IT agent friend yesterday and apparently last month was their
best for some time, almost up to peak levels.

Steve
 
Old Mar 6th 2002, 8:52 am
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Last edited by @boy; Mar 5th 2003 at 3:34 am.
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Old Mar 6th 2002, 9:58 am
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Default Re: Why Priority?

@Boy - mostly agree with what you say. I am in the lucky position of although not applying on IT application I have secured a job transfer with my company IT - I have to live in Sydney (aaahh!!). But one of the biggest things is I am taking a large wage cut in accepting the transfer over 25%. From what I am reading on this forum that is going to make it hard going especially since we will also not be having my husbands income - both together means we are dropping our income over 40% but as you we have the attidude to have a go. One thing I cannot believe is that cost of living is 25% less in Sydney than UK let alone 40% - we are not mad we have savings and a substantial amount to invest in housing. I believe this is evidence of the IT market wanting more and paying less, I currently have worked in the past year with over 8 australians who are all over here working to take money home!
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Old Mar 6th 2002, 4:36 pm
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    > We are getting married in April (after 7 years together). We are looking for a
    > change. We are bringing a wodge of cash along with us and hope to be in Oz by
    > August. We will arrive never having been there before, no relatives there, no
    > friends there, no network of contacts. Just each other.
    >
    > If things don't work out for us and we go through all our savings after 6 months,
    > then we just head home and no hard feelings to anyone, in fact I'll shake the hand
    > of the last ozzie I meet at the airport on the way home and thank them for the
    > opportunity of having us over !
    >
    > OK - been wanting to say that for a while I guess !

Come to Australia, work hard, build a future for yourselves and prosper. Just like
like millions of others have done. ..................... Me included.

Sandy

    >
    >
    >
    > --
 
Old Mar 6th 2002, 5:36 pm
  #7  
Tim S
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Default Informal analysis of Oz IT oversupply conspiracy theory- was: Why Priority?

    >I wouldn't bet on that. I have my own theory on this, which is that the priority
    >service is not maintained by an actual shortage but by the lobbying of industry
    >which wants to lower IT costs. Just my $0.02 conspiracy theory.

This is not too far-out a theory, but there are caveats to it. Just look for a
parallel in the US:

Few years back, the US IT industry requested a large increase in the number of the US
H1-B visa and they got it. It's not exactly a PR permit, but a work permit for an
employer, extendable up to 6 years. Those hoping to stay would hope to have married
an American or a PR by then.

The effects seem to be that although it increases the IT brain capital of the US as a
whole, the effect on the salary and shortage is not so clear. One obvious fact is
clear: These people on H1B are being paid less than industry standars (reflecting the
added cost of sponsoring an H1B visa). One wonders why the employer or US gov't is
not investing instead to retrain older IT workers to upgrade their skills, instead of
firing them and spending part of the savings on H1B sponsoring process and
administration. Visa-related costs are inefficient compared to skill training. The
only reason we have it is to satisfy the regulators.

When times are good, all is good and well. Well you know, simple supply and demand.
Theoretically, you can't create an oversupply by simply importing foreign IT workers
because if the market doesn't support them at their marginal cost, then they simply
leave. In reality, those who bothered with the PR process and move here can't leave
as easily, thus they're locked in the short run.

However in the long run, it all evens out. People who get fed up here will eventually
leave (as I noticed some postings mentioned) and there will be places that will be
happy to take them. I've seen foreign head-hunters prowling here. If this situation
persist, then the value of an Australian PR and living here would drop compared to
its real + opportunity costs, and not as many IT people will not come in the first
place. Thus this oversupply strategy is not really sustainable in the long run.

Yet this won't stop people from coming, even if they know there's a conspiracy. What
kind of people would come anyway?

For those lucky enough to be born in the first-world country with a higher GDP per
capita than Australia, coming here as an IT worker may not be a great deal, even if
the utility of the lifestyle changes here are included in the calculation. They may
not come, unless for personal reasons that can't be quantified.

For some people with a less-desirable passport from one of those Asian countries, the
Australian PR visa is a foot in the door of the first-world. Even with lower wages
than in the UK or US, it's still a great deal salary-wise.

It's also a great deal in terms of options. Someone can be a PR 2 years, get
lower-than-global-average IT wages and Aussie citizenship, then try to find
employment overseas. The Aussie PR or citizenship is a good backup just in case
things don't work out somewhere else.

Also on a related point to that one, an Aussie PR is a good "backup PR visa" because
it's easier to get than some other PRs. At least it's more certain and
straightforward. Let me explain. First of all it's skills-based, not family-based
like in the US. Also the US INS makes DIMIA appear simpler, highly efficient, and
more compassionate in comparison. If I were applying for a US PR, even someone as
well-informed as me would be crazy to do it without at least a few face-to-face paid
consultations with a lawyer. But by diligently reading this newsgroups, it's not
crazy to apply for an Oz PR yourself.

(Don't know much about Canada or NZ, but know that they work on skills/points based
system so they may be other good "backup PR" options too). TESTTESTTEST- I will end
by contradicting myself that this oversupply strategy might still work in the long
run, but only provided that:

1. There are highly skilled IT people outside Oz being compensated less than here.
2. Other first-world countries don't change their PR laws for importing IT workers.
If the US switches to a points-based system like Oz, guess where I'll be knocking
first if all I look at is average after-tax income numbers.
3. Australia doesn't wise up and realize it's more economically efficient to upgrade
skills of local IT workers to match their salaries or train to convert people into
IT workers, rather than simply import IT workers and pay lesser salaries. (Before
anyone accuse me of being anti-immigrant, guess what, I'm a potential migrant to
Oz. I'm just being an impartial observer).
4. Basically, anything that might lessen the value of an Australian PR compared to
its costs didn't happen.
 
Old Mar 7th 2002, 12:35 am
  #8  
Emmarr
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Default Re: Informal analysis of Oz IT oversupply conspiracy theory- was: Why Priority?

so we're veering a bit off topic here - but i have to add my 2c.

first off, let me say that i don't agree with the IT priority processing. however it
doesn't deserve urgings to be knocked off the MODL/SOL.

my thoughts:
* the US H1B requires minimum wages depending on position. dirt cheap H1B'ers only
existed in the early 80's.
* a lot of Nasdaq and Fortune 2000 IT companies (not the big guns, but enough to
boost the US economy a fair bit) were founded by first generation Americans. i.e.
techies with entrepreneurial flair who probably arrived on H1B's.
* the overhead for starting a software business (not necessarily a dot com) is
relatively low. therefore, with sufficient experienced and skilled resources ideas
and startup business plans should start flying. hence, supply might just create
demand. it happened in silicon valley and the northeast tech hub, learn from them
and don't make the same mistakes.
* the current ICT plan needs to be overhauled. the US in continuously increasing the
H1B quota because employers insist their technically skilled positions remain
unfilled. clue to all those setting the rules: the skills remaining unmatched are
VLSI system engineers, embedded operating system programmers, protocol stack
implementers and the such like, not your generic software engineer. it is hard to
believe that oz is suffering from a dire need for all those HTML jockeys and
Oracle DBA's.
* and lastly: plugging an industry need with migrants is not a stable plan. skilled
IT should be more discerning as to the skills, and training should be focused on
i.e. get IT educators and put them to use.

thanx for bearing with me.
 
Old Mar 7th 2002, 8:35 am
  #9  
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Default Re: Why Priority?

"@boy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

    > We will arrive never having been there before, no relatives there, no friends
    > there, no network of contacts. Just each other.
    >
    > If things don't work out for us and we go through all our savings after 6 months,
    > then we just head home and no hard feelings to anyone, in fact I'll shake the hand
    > of the last ozzie I meet at the airport on the way home and thank them for the
    > opportunity of having us over !

Good for you! We're going to NZ on exactly the same basis, flinging ourselves into it
100%. The best of luck to you both.

Cheers Winnie
 
Old Mar 7th 2002, 12:35 pm
  #10  
Sandy Cruden
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Default Re: Why Priority?

--

"Winnie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "@boy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    > > We will arrive never having been there before, no relatives there, no friends
    > > there, no network of contacts. Just each other.
    > >
    > > If things don't work out for us and we go through all our savings after 6 months,
    > > then we just head home and no hard feelings to anyone, in fact I'll shake the
    > > hand of the last ozzie I meet at the airport on the way home and thank them for
    > > the opportunity of having us over !
    >
    > Good for you! We're going to NZ on exactly the same basis, flinging ourselves into
    > it 100%. The best of luck to you both.
    >
    > Cheers Winnie

GREAT!! I wish more people who come to Oz to live would adopt that attitude.

The opportunities ARE still there for the taking. It will not neccessarily be easy
but then nothing worthwhile is.

The daughter and son-in law of friends of mine went to live in Brisbane from UK some
3 years ago.

He is an upholsterer. They already have their own business, and a beautiful home.

Sandy
 
Old Mar 7th 2002, 2:27 pm
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Default Re: Why Priority?

I agree with most of you (sorry guys, didn't really understand/want to follow the immigration/IT stuff so I skipped it!!) As long as you are arriving in Australia with your eyes open to the possible pitfalls etc, but you have the enthusiasm to "give it a go" then I wish you all the luck in the world and I'm sure it will work out for you.

We are heading for WA later on this year, my husband is an IT Project Manager and we realise that it will be hard for him to get his "ideal" job, but he is willing and prepared to do anything that will bring the money in, especially in the early days of our arrival. We are in a similar situation to @boy, although we have "family" in WA, we are not expecting it to be easy, but we are absolutely certain that we are doing the right thing by leaving the UK!
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Old Mar 7th 2002, 3:05 pm
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"Sandy Cruden" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    > --
    >
    > "Winnie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > "@boy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > > We will arrive never having been there before, no relatives there, no friends
    > > > there, no network of contacts. Just each other.
    > > >
    > > > If things don't work out for us and we go through all our savings
after
    > > > 6 months, then we just head home and no hard feelings to anyone, in
fact
    > > > I'll shake the hand of the last ozzie I meet at the airport on the way home and
    > > > thank them for the opportunity of having us over !
    > >
    > > Good for you! We're going to NZ on exactly the same basis, flinging ourselves
    > > into it 100%. The best of luck to you both.
    > >
    > > Cheers Winnie
    >
    > GREAT!! I wish more people who come to Oz to live would adopt that
attitude.
    >
    > The opportunities ARE still there for the taking. It will not neccessarily be easy
    > but then nothing worthwhile is.
    >
    > The daughter and son-in law of friends of mine went to live in Brisbane
from
    > UK some 3 years ago.
    >
    > He is an upholsterer. They already have their own business, and a
beautiful
    > home.
    >
    > Sandy

Well said Sandy. If it's worth having it's worth working for. And well done to
your friends!

Winnie xx
 
Old Mar 7th 2002, 3:50 pm
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Default Re: Why Priority?

Originally posted by Sandra
[BI am in the lucky position of although not applying on IT application I have secured a job transfer with my company IT - I have to live in Sydney (aaahh!!). But one of the biggest things is I am taking a large wage cut in accepting the transfer over 25%. [/B]
Sandra, this is a bit off topic but I'll ask anyway ;-)

I'm mid discussion with my employer regarding migration from UK to Aus to take on same role over in Sydney. We have still to get to the gory detail of the salary cut I'll have to take. Do you know if a 25% cut of UK salary is the norm for an intercompany transfer ?

thanks,
Joost
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Old Mar 8th 2002, 10:13 am
  #14  
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Default Re: Why Priority?

Hi Joost,

I'll add my 2 cents here and I'm sure you can get advice from others who have moved overseas with their companies.

First things first. Don't look at it as a cut of 25%. What you want to ensure is that you have the same standard of living. There are professional companies who do this comparison and you should make sure your employer does get this done and you should be able to see the report as well, or check it on the web for yourself.

If you are over for a short time (3-5 years),
1. make sure your company pension registers continuous service in the UK and that your company keeps the UK contributions on your behalf. Very important right now as there is all the fuss over final salary pensions.
2. Also ensure that that your returning salary calculation is included in your contract. This needs to be based on salaries on an equivalent position.

On the other hand, if you are going over for permanent residence, you will simply have to take on the same salary range as the same position in Aus.

Bearing in mind cost of living is supposed to be 60% in Melbourne, compared to London. A 25% drop in salary is a 25% rise in standard of living!!!

ndaltonb
 
Old Mar 8th 2002, 10:53 am
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Default Re: Why Priority?

Not the expert by any means - I was offered the average-high salary for my skills in the company - this was checked by me (asked everyone I knew did it sound reasonable and checking with a couple of agencies). I am also constantly told it is hard to compare apples and oranges I have other reasons for staying with the company, main one is I love it and the work so my decision maybe a little biased. If you want to discuss - send me one of those private messages with email address. Don't want to bore the NG! I am going to be chatting with a financial planner shortly so I will ask him his opinion on the salary. I was a bit blunt with my company and asked for an estimate up front because I did not want to waste time if I was offered an amount I did not think could work because by husband will not be earning for the first while and if the offer was too low we would have been travelling to Melbourne (Husband more opportunity for work) where the dollar according to George Lombard and Allan Collett sites goes further - they have cost of living calculators attached - very useful sites guys.
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