sackofspuds

I think what's obvious is that there are enormous differences between the various people who migrate to Australia. They aren't just one homogonous mass.

Let's not beat around the bush here. Relatively few eduated, middle class people go to Australia. Largely the migrants are skilled tradespeople or semi-professionals.

I can hear the howls of indignation from here!

The professional classes that go tend to end up in Sydney or Melbourne. Since these two cities have the highest housing costs etc then reasons for going there from another First World economy like the UK are mainly lifestyle factors. If you're an investment banker who is mad about sailing then Sydney is a pretty good place to be.

Most of the posters to this board tend to go to Brisbane, Perth or Adelaide. They ain't investment bankers. These cities have cheaper housing costs and therefore if you have a decent amount of equity in your UK house you can probably buy a house for cash in the minor Australian cities. In short, you get a one-off financial boost.

Certain jobs pay similar wages to the UK so with no mortgage and similar income it makes sense to emigrate.

I'd argue, therefore, that a heck of a lot of people on this board are looking to "downshift" and are migrating for an easier life. They tend to be middle aged and in a bit of a rut; sick of the UK and feel they are just treading water. Somehow they think that the act of moving to Australia will solve their feelings of what is, basically, a mid-life crisis.

Their world view is pretty much the opposite of mine. I have no wish to downsize.

The problem is that in many outer suburbs of Australian cities the life chances of the youngsters are no better and, judging by the teenage suicide rate, rather worse than the UK. Furthermore, there's no one-off financial boost for the next generation. They won't be buying a house cash.

So, those without kids or those who have left their adult kids behind have a totally different perspective.

The realities of getting up and going to work every day and not actually seeing much of the beach etc, plus the loneliness of being a migrant lead a lot of people to return to the UK. They didn't realise that Australia isn't Britain with sunshine, it's a different culture. Those outer suburbs can be cruel, especially if you're unemployed. There are some really poor people in Australia. They're the ones who couldn't buy a house in cash generated from another country. In the meantime, however, these migrants are desperate to justify their decision and so pounce on anyone who doesn't say Australia is wonderful - right until they decide to return.

Others, of course, love it and they continue to pounce on anyone who doesn't say Australia is wonderful.

Badge

Mate, you have it PERFECT I would say. great post. I summed it up simarlarly months ago but said it slightly differently; I said that if you were below average, or average "means" in the UK then you may be better off in Australia. This is not limited to trade or profession - maybe UK homeownership or age. I know stacks of middle professionals in London who cannot afford to buy, or have modest lifestyles who went to the best unis.

That capital injection is very important. It is a big driver.

Small addition: There are people though, who like it here, and don't need to justify it or pounce. But they don't like being patronised or taken for idiots by some people I will not name or whom are equal to pounce when the UK is knocked, or Australia is liked. It takes all sorts.

My situation: I like it here, am a professional, am not middle aged, and can do all I want to here. There are benefits to living here which I do not get in the UK. This is different for everybody, as you can see.

It what you make it, or make of it.

nice post once again.

BM

ABCDiamond

Quite a condesending post.

Many people here have spent lots of time making there choice of whether to come here or not, in the same way as you have.
And, they have decide what they feel is best for them, in the same way that you have.

Your choice NOT to leave is fine, for you, and I personally respect that, in the same way that I respect others with their choice to give Australia a try. Do you respect their informed decision to migrate ? Or do you consider that you are one of the few to have a fully informed decision ? Like Mike Stanton, I came out here for quite some years before changing my mind, and returning to the UK, but I also ended up coming back to Australia a few years later, after realising what I was missing.

I could easily go on about how terrible the UK is, etc., etc. but I don't, because each country has good things to offer different people.
You say: It's more like missing friends and family lead a FEW people to return to the UK, have you checked the statistics of how many actually leave ? On average out of each 100 that arrive, 4 will leave in the first year, another 4 the next year, and then a few more (reducing) each year until it totals about 25% spread over 20+ years. I don't call that a LOT.
The numbers may be a bit higher at the moment, but that's partly because only about 70% of those migrating actually intend it to be permanent these days.
Are all Migrants really Lonely as you say they are ?
Do all happy migrants here pounce on those that say Australia is the pits ?
The answer is more likely to be a "FEW", yet you lump us all together, and cause some to bite back.

I wonder if I got out of bed on the wrong side today

mlbonner

I wouldn't say Australia is 'wonderful' (though on the whole I do like it here.) I am here for a man who I consider to be 'wonderful', who just happens to be an Australian living in Brisbane. Who incidentally works in IT.

I'm an Investment Finance Manager, I've got post-graduate qualifications. I have no dependants & I certainly wasn't looking to downshift. This doesn't make me better or worse than anyone else. My point is I don't fit with what you're saying.
While I understand what you're saying & agree completely with Badge (lifes what you make it), you perhaps need to be more careful with your generalisation of the "Immigrant", not all of us are here following the same dream, for some it is much more personal. For those that perhaps do 'fit' your generalisation, if they're happy what does it matter. Generalising normally ends up with everyone being called a 'name' that should be left for only very few.

mlbonner

Perhaps we both did..... I never used to reply to these sorts of posts... I obviously need to ask my boss for some more work

Pollyana

No, ABC (and Michelle), you didn't get out of the wrong side.

I think sackofspuds needs to have a rethink - the majority of us respected his decision not to emigrate, because we know that the decision is a very personal one. Only the family/person concerned knows all the ins and outs of any specific move, and we all know that.
We don't need someone to condescendingly point out to us that there are various reasons for migration, and all the rest of the bumpf he has come out with. Who is he to judge whether we are "educated" and what yardstick is he measuring by? Who is he to judge the house-buying ability of those of us who have moved?
And although anyone reading my posts knows that I battle with loneliness, I would never ever presume that I speak for the majority.

As for we can't buy with cash from another country, we can't even get a house with an Aussie mortgage because we don't earn enough to get a mortgage. However I wouldn't say we are "really poor". There is a big big gap between the "really poor" and those who can buy a house with foreign cash - and at a rough guess, the mojority of people on the forum will fall into this gap? Remember Hevs and HUP - you couldn't describe them as "really poor" yet they posted about the struggle to buy and the need for a mortgage.

JAJ

An observation of postings on this board suggests a lot of tradesmen and nurses among the migrants to Australia. But is this representative of the overall migrant intake?

There are not many investment bankers out there to begin with!

High flying professionals are more likely to be migrating through Employer Nomination and won't usually need a resource like this as their relocation issues are handled through paid professionals.

Other professionals, where it's not intended to be permanent, just stay on the 457 visa and never formally migrate. Especially if they never think to push their employer to get them onto a PR visa - just because someone is an expert investment banker doesn't automatically make him or her 'visa smart'.

It is true that where someone has a high-flying career in the UK they have more to lose from making an 'independent' move to Australia than someone who's well skilled but not on the same career fast-track. As I've said, high flyers looking to move to Australia will either do so on an employer transfer, or will be specifically looking for a less strenuous career track.


May well be the right decision if you're not an investment banker

Commonly, people reach their late 30s, having wanted to migrate for some timeand been sidetracked by career - and have realised that if they don't migrate soon, they'll never be able to do so.

Day to day life is similar. Anyone hoping to escape that will be disappointed. If you like sunshine, then you'll still generally prefer Australia. Missing family/friends - depends on how independent minded you are as an individual, how easy you find it to make new friends, and to what extent the other aspects of Australian life appeal to you.

Different culture - yes, but not as different as it would be in France, Brazil or South Korea.

The reality is that if you're in the UK and need a change of scenery without having to learn a different language there are not too many choices. The US is generally closed to those without a close relative or sponsoring employer there. Canada's winters are not for everyone, while Ireland has a worse climate than most of the UK coupled with a higher cost of living. New Zealand has a small economy and almost as much rain as the UK. Which leaves Australia.

Those of a particularly pioneering spirit and skills needed locally could try the Falkland Islands, but that's not for everyone.

Jeremy

Badge

SackofSpuds ideintified some usual 'suspect' problems. eg Kids.

They are no better off in the UK than here. The same high costs of living apply. Good Australian parents produce well educated kids too. Its not always just the school. It's the parents too. I knew underperformers at my school which wasn't bad. I also hear of brilliant students in comprehensives. Parents have more of a contribution than they realise.

The one advantage is that our 'average ' kids can go to the UK, work, have fun, make a mint using their quite adequate Australian education and then have some money to bring back.

Their UK counterparts have less option. Unless they earn mega salaries then they have the option of going to the Middle East, working offshore or in places like Lux. Thats what I did to gain a footing on the UK ladder. But most of these are temporary solutions. I'd rather take back money to Australia and have a family than take it back to lOndon.

As London is good for jobs, (and many kids go there), then it seems the Aussies end up doing quite well, whatever they choose to do, even if they stay.


BM

Quinkana

Think you are where you need to be.

Simone

Yes, obviously

Yep, this SEEMS to be the majority, on this forum anyway.
People on spouse visa are of course a whole different category.
I think this is one of the main reasons(not the only one) why it's a good idea for some to migrate.
Their kids won't have that though.
And you still have to work to pay the bills.

Only(well, main?) advantage is a bigger and/or nicer house is a more desirable area, with better weather(generally).
And some people are happy with that, some don't think it replaces having family and friends around etc.

And the change, the excitement, the adventure.
If you don't like adventure or love Australia (NOT hate the UK), I wouldn't just do it for the 'better life'!
But I don't think that's many people on here.


For me personally it's just about 'something different' and I grew up here.

Lifes no different at all.
Have breakfast, drive to work in heavy traffic, work all day, go home in even worse traffic, shop just before the shops close, make dinner, sit in front of the computer or watch tv or go to a friends house.
That's 75% of my week.
The weekend is usually sleeping in and shopping and relaxing, and other times it's out enjoying the outdoors, meeting friends, going camping.
I'd say about 50/50 with 'normal' and 'fun' weekends.
So, it's about the same. And there wasn't much risk involved for us (I didn't work yet, no really good friends, not really close to family (my parents are now probably coming to live out here, yay!!!)

So, yeah, bit of generalisation from me too.
Agree with some of your general points, but not all the details.


Can someone explain to me what SOS meant with that line Megs (Quinkana) just quoted (from another thread)?. Not entirely sure in this context....

ABCDiamond

This is the fuller context of that quote:

Brizbound

Do I get a prize - I've emigrated and fit none of your stereotypes?

Please.

Pollyana

I suppose its nice to know that the eminent Sackofspuds actually recgonises that we are individuals actually......isn't he a bright one

Simone

lol.
My first comment was nearly going to be "yes, obviously. Duh "

jah4reds

Hi sackofspuds,

I recognise your decision to stay in the UK as the best decision emotionally for you and your family and wish you well in the future.

As a long time member of this board (who even remembers when PB and dotty starting posting to this forum) I would agree that most who post here are not tertiary educated 'white-collar' workers. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't many of us in Australia - or that those who have migrated are middle-aged and have "downsized" (why do scenes of 'One Foot in the Grave' keep popping into my head?). I work in IT in Brisbane, and keep bumping to quite a few ex-pat brits who own a house, are earning decent money and have never heard of this site.

Anyway, here's a different perspective: I am british but lived in Jamaica until I was 16. When I went to England to do my A' Levels - I'll never forget how 'depressed' other students seemed to me. They may have had a better standard of education - but, I mean, they were just so down about everything. I always felt that the weather had an incredible influence on general happiness and well-being - so I want to give the same (or similar) experience to my kids. I didn't go to the beach every day in Jamaica - so I wouldn't expect to that here. Although I have 2 UK university degrees, a lot of my Jamaican classmates (who completed their schooling and tertiary eduction in Jamaica) have achieved far higher *professional careers* - there are 3 doctors, a dentist, a director (of Cable and Wireless), 4 lawyers, a note-worthy poet, 2 headmasters and even a politician (but never mind about that one!) - working in Jamaica, the US, Canada and the UK. What is the common theme about the most *successful' ones*? They had supportive and generous (not just with money) parents who helped them all the way. However, I think of all my UK schoolmates only one achieved this level (a doctor) even with their *better* school and university education.

Australia is a young and expanding country and therefore needs more tradespeople - so that's why they are on the MODL. Personally I see Australia as a slow motion, smaller version of the US. The US kickstarted itself into the powerhouse that it is today on the sheer hard work of the 'poor, huddles masses' (see inscription of the Status of Liberty), not the endeavours of of bankers, stock market brokers, bond traders, etc. When it matured between the first and second world war - these and other professions then took over as the key drivers to its financial sucess.

So you see, I think Australia has great future and will change a lot over the next couple of decades - and although it is a *gamble* I still feel we (my family) will have a great time watching the kids grow up in a more easy-going, relaxed place with plenty of sunshine.

Ah well, Tempus Fugit.

More time,
Andrew (Reds)