I'm not looking down on shop assistants. but I don't think it's right to assume some children should only aim for that. I was a shop worker for 2 years, I loved it.

Did anyone read my link about how the whole way we rate intelligence is probably wrong? I call BS on teh idea that some kids are smart and some aren't. (assuming no special needs like Downs, etc) IMO that's just an excuse to throw some children under the bus. Why can't we assume every child is capable of anything? I find that very sad.

I think the real issue here is class. A lot of people have a vested interest in keeping certain sections of society dumb so they don't have to compete so hard for the good jobs. "People are meant for different things " i.e. in your world view, some people are meant to be labourers and people like you get to be in an office? Bullshit.


I also disagree with the idea that "academic" children "should" go onto be scientists, professionals etc. Just because you learn quickly in a certain way that is measured by IQ tests in our current culture, doesn't mean that's a good fit. Maybe being a carpenter or a welder would be a better fit, and we should drop the intellectual snobbery and assumptions behind certain job roles. And frankly, those jobs are more $$$ these days so...

Why can't we assume every child is capable of anything?

Well, because they aren't.

Different people, different skills, aptitudes and capabilities. One of the more pernicious lies told to children is "you can do anything you want to do".

Whilst not 'sitting back and settling' is probably a good attitude for a kid, giving them false expectation that they are capable of anything just sets them up for disappointment, stress, and general disillusionment with the idea of striving at all. Nobody likes to fail all the time.

A better lesson is probably "you will find somethings easy, and somethings hard. Get 'good enough to pass' at the things you find hard, and put the effort and practice into things you find easy."

You are deluded if you think all people are the same, truly deluded. I absolutely stand by the comments that not all children are going to have the ability to become doctors or scientists. I am pretty smart myself, but never would have been smart enough for medicine. Unlike you though, I can accept that and I played to my strengths.

And nowhere have I said what anyone should or should not do, but we do need to provide the appropriate learning, the doctors that will look after me in my old age are amongst this lot going to school now, no it is not all of the academic children, but definitely amongst them and I want them to have the best opportunity for learning.

As to your class war comments and what I think about "people like me" are destined for and trying to keep "certain sections of society down". Will I hate to debunk your theory about me, but I am working class, I am from Oldham, my father was an Irish immigrant and a manual worker /labourer. There was no silver spoon in this gob.

In fact I would even say that you are displaying the worst snobbery on this thread, looking down on shop keepers and now assuming that because I am educated and work in a professional capacity, that I could not possibly have come from "lower stock".

I think it's a matter of niche picking - some kids will be better carpenters than they will dentists - yet give some of the dentists wood drills and they'd make a right schemozzle. The important thing is that kids who struggle academically are given a chance to excel at what they can - and that often isn't possible within a mainstream mixed ability class. An example - my dad had severe dyslexia (although it wasn't called that back in the day) and he, fortunately, had an amazing teacher who took him and a group of kids like him and encouraged them to learn through doing mechanical things - they built a caravan IIRC. So learning disabled kids found their practical niche. Contrast that with a highly intelligent woman - professor of something at Cambridge who, knowing that her car was overheating and needing water painstakingly poured it down the dipstick hole! So the slowest kids can have valuable expertise in areas that the most academically gifted flounder with. We need doctors and dentists to be sure but we just as importantly need mechanics, plumbers and electricians, picking the niche and enabling kids of all levels to do that is easier when you can focus your attention.

Sorry - but you're waaaay off there. There is a HUGE variance in learning abilities between people - just as some people are naturally athletic, some people are naturally artistic and some people are great empathisers and some are great 'detail' people.

I have 2 daughters - both have all the same advantages and encouragements in life, both have had the same teachers in early school life. Fortunately both my girls are reasonable high achievers at school - but NOT because they're both as smart as each other.

One is super-intelligent (measured by pyschologist - and am I'm not going to quite numbers here). She has been accelerated at school, we've been warned that her constant challenge will be boredum in the classroom as no matter what level shes at - she, "will just *get it* quickly - show her once and she'll understand". Her school environment at yrs 3&4 simply didnt challenge her (mixed ability group - teaching to the middle of the bell curve) and she started to go feral, stopped paying attention and grades plummeted. We've since pulled her out of that school and moved her to a private school with much more attention and focus on kids individual abilities. The lights have come back on and grades picked back up again...

Daughter #2 - however, is a different animal. She doesn't have her sisters natural inherent raw brain power. What she has is a high performing brain and a solid work ethic. She is quite happy sitting at the right hand edge of the bell curve and will just get on with it until she's achieved what she needs to.

I have every confidence that both daughters will be academically successful and I suspect that daughter #2 will have a much easier journey through academia than daughter #1 - but to suggest that there's no difference in 'smarts' is delusional.

(oh.. and when they play with the kids over the road I'm reminded just how big the gap in 'smarts' across the wider population can be! - They are seriously dumb as a post!)

I also think people have a tendency to form cliches - that all 'academics' have no 'common' sense - or, rather they mix common sense with niche practical ability. A carpenter has plenty of practise making joints but at least one I knew could not plan, read a timetable or think of the consequences of his actions. He used to brag about his common sense but in fact I thought he had little.

I have had a lot to do with people that have combined academic success with practical sense - and the practical stuff comes if you do it enough - or want to for that matter.

Except of course B was probably the top set and A the bottom...!

All I think is important is that the kids get the best chances - which for some parents mean the best schools for them. Having met people from all walks of life (a cliche I know but it's true in my case) :this is the sum total of my attitude to schooling:

Give them the best chances you can. And that might mean a private school or a school with the right culture. Even then, this is not so much to do with results, for me, it's do with the networks they will form and the values they might get from that environment - and a sense of independence and self-reliance. Even more so: People often complain that the children of the priveleged have a sense of entitlement - so bear this in mind: do not teach other kids that they have an entitlement to be a 'battler'. This has nothing to do with class or background. Enable your kids to do well. One of the things I notice is the parents of working class kids teaching them the expectation that certain things are not possible - it can be - (with a lot of luck). It's partly a cultural thing of course. When I talk to my kids, I say things like 'When you are staying and working in the flat in Europe, or when you are translating English to French - think of this factor' - they have an assumption that is what they can do - I don't say 'Get me the green loo paper from Woolies and then a scratchcard' as if that is the highlight of their day. People talk about the Tall Poppy syndrome in Australia but it also exists in the UK.

My parent's crowd were Oxbridge and I learnt a lot from that crew - and it does sort of rub off on you - the confidence et cetera. But I also mixed it in with all sorts of people that taught me when to wind the neck in. (blah blah)
There's a curious sort of thing in general, and in life, where by people assume that unless you are born with a golden spoon in your mouth, certain chances will pass you by: true to a point, but one of the lessons I've learnt in life is that confidence and even bearing is key.

Yes, I think you've put to bed the idea that everyone is equally able and capable of achieving anything. I can see the reason for the thinking behind this but it is based on a false premise.

To use an analogy (and education is no different to sport, arts, culture etc); when I start out coaching beginners at tennis I certainly think it is possible that one of them could be the next Rafa/Andy/Novak/Roger/Serena etc. It's certainly possible one of them could be. However, that's a long, long, long way from thinking they all could be the best in the world and me not believing this stops it from happening. Ditto school children and education. They simply aren't the same.

I believe one of the failures of modern education is exactly that in a way children are deluded into believing they can achieve anything. Now, I'm not advocating pessimism and setting targets too low; just a bit more realism and preparation for the real world.

In the UK, my daughter was in an accelerated learning stream and she was very happy. She was mixing with people of her own ability and learning at a rate that kept her interested.
One of the biggest struggles for her settling here is the fact that, other than for maths and English, she is in mixed ability here. It has taken her longer to make friends as she has had to actively seek out her type of friend.

When I was at school, I was in the top classes as I was very good at English and other languages, but I really struggled with maths. I felt stupid because I just didn't get it whereas the rest of the class did. I was very unhappy and eventually gave up trying.
I was much happier once I moved down into a class where I could keep up. It was too late for me though as I had switched off from maths and I barely scraped a maths GCSE.

I think classes should be streamed but that there should be an easy transition for kids who perform well to move up.

When I first came to Oz the first work I managed to get was 6 weeks as a relief tech studies teacher at Paralowie R-12 (with no teaching experience, SA Dept of Education must have been desperate!) and one of the classes I had to take was Remedial Maths for year 9. I had a class of around 8 complete under-achievers, trying to get them to understand basic arithmetic.

In order to try and point out to them the importance of understanding arithmetic I asked each of them what they wanted to do when they left school, in order to show how arithmetic would be important to them, but I was completely floored by the girl who said "Oh, I'll just go on the dole, like me dad."

I definitely agree that teaching the under-achievers is more difficult and stressful than teaching the over-achievers - but I still support streaming, if only because those 8 would have been a total disaster if left in large mixed ability classes.

Most schools in Australia have some kind of academic achievers program and special needs programs for kids that need extra help. If you work hard and are capable of going into the higher classes, then you'll get transferred, same can be said if you muck around and don't achieve, out you go. If you bring your kids up to know their strengths and weaknesses and use the gifts they've been given, they should find something that makes them feel good about themselves at school.

Might be true in Brisbane but certainly not "most" schools in Aus - the AEU doesn't like streaming! If you are lucky you might find a bit of remedial help for kids with learning difficulties but that peters out significantly in HS. Aussie schools in general don't go much on tall poppies!

Oh okay, in my experience (including when I went to school many, many years ago in WA) the schools have always streamed the kids. Maybe I've just struck it lucky.

Unfortunately not all schools in Melbourne offer Accelerated or Support Groups in the year levels. Sad to say reading recovery isn't offered in most state schools either. It all depends on the size of the school and the funding allocated, etc. This is a constant headache for those with kids who require acceleration or support. Again, this also is true for private schools that not everyone is catered for so as a parent one really needs to find out how the school they are interested in operates & it's probably best to hear this from parents who have kids already there (if you can get access to them). If your child fits the middle of the bell shaped curve, he/she will do well in either State or Private. I guess if you're ontop of how your child is doing in Numeracy & Literacy, you will be able to navigate the school systems.

I've often asked kids what they wanted to be/do and of late the most frequent reply I get is 'I want to be famous'. Oh, I reply, 'what for'? Blank looks, 'what do you mean'? Blame modern reality TV for that.