Are "plane people" better than "boat people"?
#46
Re: Are "plane people" better than "boat people"?
I wonder if the same stringent checks (that apply say for normal visitor visa applicants from high risk countries) also apply to 'athletes' from the same country to get a visa to compete in a supposed sporting event.
#47
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: Canberra
Posts: 568
Re: Are "plane people" better than "boat people"?
#48
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Are "plane people" better than "boat people"?
What do you think they are saying? I don't get where it says that the number of resettlement visa is offset against the number boat arriving refugees settled.
First, you said it was illegal; then you said it was incorrect; now you're saying you wonder if it's incorrect. In what sense is it incorrect? Be precise.
No-one demands to get taken anywhere - they pay through the nose (and often get fleeced along the way). Why should anyone co-operate with the Indonesian Navy?
First, you said it was illegal; then you said it was incorrect; now you're saying you wonder if it's incorrect. In what sense is it incorrect? Be precise.
No-one demands to get taken anywhere - they pay through the nose (and often get fleeced along the way). Why should anyone co-operate with the Indonesian Navy?
My view is:
Refugees who arrive by Plane have gone through all the correct legal channels, been vetted as true refugees by international organisations etc.
Refugees who arrive by Boat are avoiding the legal process, for various reasons, which may include some of these:
1: They can afford the $20,000 or so to get passage.
2: They know they won't get priority in the international process.
3: add to this list if you wish
Boat people end up claiming allocated places that mean that others that have gone through the international vetting are pushed down the line.
Australia only takes a certain number each year, from whatever source.
Comparison between Refugees and Overstayers:
My View:
Many Refugees cost the Australian taxpayer a lot in benefits, as they are eligible for everything without the 2 year benefit free period that normal migrants have to wait. They are also allowed to then bring in their families under the same conditions.
Many Overstayers are often spending their money here, and helping the economy.
That is why I see the media emphasis on Boat people jumping the queues, rather than overstayers.
Refugees who arrive by Plane have gone through all the correct legal channels, been vetted as true refugees by international organisations etc.
Refugees who arrive by Boat are avoiding the legal process, for various reasons, which may include some of these:
1: They can afford the $20,000 or so to get passage.
2: They know they won't get priority in the international process.
3: add to this list if you wish
Boat people end up claiming allocated places that mean that others that have gone through the international vetting are pushed down the line.
Australia only takes a certain number each year, from whatever source.
Comparison between Refugees and Overstayers:
My View:
Many Refugees cost the Australian taxpayer a lot in benefits, as they are eligible for everything without the 2 year benefit free period that normal migrants have to wait. They are also allowed to then bring in their families under the same conditions.
Many Overstayers are often spending their money here, and helping the economy.
That is why I see the media emphasis on Boat people jumping the queues, rather than overstayers.
The standards are actually the same today as they were in the above mentioned Howard era.
The difference is that Howard wanted all refugees vetted offshore, whilst Rudd was OK with it being done onshore. Although it now appears he may be looking carefully at other options, due to the increases of boat people movements.
If we accepted 6,000 boat people as refugees, none of the ones that are going through correct channels would get here, as the limit would be reached.
Therefore why would genuine refugees even bother using correct channels, the boat people would be taking away their hopes. This would just undermine the international systems that have been set up.
The difference is that Howard wanted all refugees vetted offshore, whilst Rudd was OK with it being done onshore. Although it now appears he may be looking carefully at other options, due to the increases of boat people movements.
If we accepted 6,000 boat people as refugees, none of the ones that are going through correct channels would get here, as the limit would be reached.
Therefore why would genuine refugees even bother using correct channels, the boat people would be taking away their hopes. This would just undermine the international systems that have been set up.
I wasn't sure at one stage, but looking at the figures the other day, in May 2008 they allocated 13,500 Total Humanitarian Program Allocation places for 2008/09.
The total figure for final approvals for the 2008/09 year, released recently, was 13,507. Only 7 more than the figure announced about 18 months ago.
I don't have that years split for special humanitarian program and refugee components, but the annual totals appear to say it all. Unless of course, there were only 7 boat style people that were admitted in that 12 months. ?
No, I just couldn't understand what was being said
But the "correct channels" for refugees are often referred to as going through the international organisations that organise these things.
Getting a flight to Indonesia, destroying your identity papers, and paying a people smuggler to get you to Australia, does, to me, make me wonder if that may be an incorrect channel.
The total figure for final approvals for the 2008/09 year, released recently, was 13,507. Only 7 more than the figure announced about 18 months ago.
I don't have that years split for special humanitarian program and refugee components, but the annual totals appear to say it all. Unless of course, there were only 7 boat style people that were admitted in that 12 months. ?
No, I just couldn't understand what was being said
But the "correct channels" for refugees are often referred to as going through the international organisations that organise these things.
Getting a flight to Indonesia, destroying your identity papers, and paying a people smuggler to get you to Australia, does, to me, make me wonder if that may be an incorrect channel.
But specifically, please tell me why you think that the Humanitarian Visas for the boat people do not come out of the total annual allocation of Humanitarian Visas ? And re-read the above to understand the answer to your question
In May 2008 they allocated 13,500 Total Humanitarian Program Allocation places for 2008/09.
They isssued 13,507 visas. How many went to Boat people 7 ?
Australia sets limits BEFORE the beginning of the year.
Those limits are near enough stuck to. Whether by authorised entry via one of the humanitarian programs or other sources.
From those figures, it stands to reason that if they were all boat people, then no more allocation would be available. That is my reasoning, as I explained before. But please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, as I always prefer to see actual info, and if you read 'precisely' what I said, I even said that I doubted that system originally.
I also said in exact words "the annual totals appear to say it all", that allows room for someone to provide alternative points preferably with reasoning rather than your words "What do you think they are saying? <..> Be precise."
And finally I never mentioned the Indosesian Navy
#49
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Are "plane people" better than "boat people"?
Boat people
A term used in the media and elsewhere to describe asylum seekers who arrive by boat or attempt to arrive by boat without authority to enter Australia. DIAC uses the term ‘unauthorised boat arrivals’ or ‘unlawful boat arrivals’
http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/B...atArrivals.pdf
A term used in the media and elsewhere to describe asylum seekers who arrive by boat or attempt to arrive by boat without authority to enter Australia. DIAC uses the term ‘unauthorised boat arrivals’ or ‘unlawful boat arrivals’
http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/B...atArrivals.pdf
#50
Account Closed
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,784
Re: Are "plane people" better than "boat people"?
Irish boat people have just landed in Vietnam.........
#52
Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 145
Re: Are "plane people" better than "boat people"?
Yes they are. Plane people generally entered Australia legally whereas boat people circumvent the laws and use the media (and their children) to try to stir up public sympathy. When the government doesn't submit to their immediate demands they stage hunger strikes.
I personally feel badly for people who face genuine hardship. I agree that Australia should take it's fair share of refugees. However I don't agree that we should be held hostage to law breakers who blow up boats or stage hunger strikes to enter.
I work at the hospital where a lot of the people from the Ashmore Reef boat explosion were treated. The costs of treating these criminals (yes, they are criminals who while trying to illegally enter the country alledgedly set their own boat on fire causing serious burns) could have treated many dozens of Australian tax payers.
I personally feel badly for people who face genuine hardship. I agree that Australia should take it's fair share of refugees. However I don't agree that we should be held hostage to law breakers who blow up boats or stage hunger strikes to enter.
I work at the hospital where a lot of the people from the Ashmore Reef boat explosion were treated. The costs of treating these criminals (yes, they are criminals who while trying to illegally enter the country alledgedly set their own boat on fire causing serious burns) could have treated many dozens of Australian tax payers.
#53
Lifestyle Development
Joined: May 2007
Location: Budapest, Melbourne, Yarrawonga & Antalya
Posts: 353
Re: Are "plane people" better than "boat people"?
My two bob's worth.
No difference, both sort of illegal, those arriving by air who applied for and received a legal visa on condition of compliance, but with actual intention of not complying with conditions after arrival... well....join the dots on that one legally...
Boat people often do not have any access to a legal visa, let alone physical access to an Australian Embassy, in less democratic regimes.
Like many I am a bit exasperated with the fervour this issue induces in many people in Australia?
Issue is in the news because it suits the media and both political parties (from time to time for scare purposes), but meanwhile on the ground still lack of action and good data on regional development, streamlining state govts., population policy, addressing skills shortages, sustainability (e.g. encouraging smaller houses, less cars) and how to deal with ageing population and decreasing tax base?
As the producer in Australia's funniest satirical comedy "Frontline", based round a shonky current affairs program said: "A pub brawl in Manly is more important than a civil war, if you have pictures". Accordingly boat people provide great imagery, versus hands of a civil servant leafing through visa arrival data printouts.....
(Frontline appeared in the 90's and was described by The Guardian as "(If you forget where this series comes from), it is sheer brilliance" and from Ben Elton "The precursor of The Office"
More seriously, what I would call in Australia a jingostic nationalism has taken on board some earlier traits of Central European nationalism of the 1800s:
Like the film "The Castle" (also from producers of Frontline) mid 90s, which was a huge success internationally, as it showed good Oz values of the little man with values and ethics standing up to power and authority.....but different now....
No difference, both sort of illegal, those arriving by air who applied for and received a legal visa on condition of compliance, but with actual intention of not complying with conditions after arrival... well....join the dots on that one legally...
Boat people often do not have any access to a legal visa, let alone physical access to an Australian Embassy, in less democratic regimes.
Like many I am a bit exasperated with the fervour this issue induces in many people in Australia?
Issue is in the news because it suits the media and both political parties (from time to time for scare purposes), but meanwhile on the ground still lack of action and good data on regional development, streamlining state govts., population policy, addressing skills shortages, sustainability (e.g. encouraging smaller houses, less cars) and how to deal with ageing population and decreasing tax base?
As the producer in Australia's funniest satirical comedy "Frontline", based round a shonky current affairs program said: "A pub brawl in Manly is more important than a civil war, if you have pictures". Accordingly boat people provide great imagery, versus hands of a civil servant leafing through visa arrival data printouts.....
(Frontline appeared in the 90's and was described by The Guardian as "(If you forget where this series comes from), it is sheer brilliance" and from Ben Elton "The precursor of The Office"
More seriously, what I would call in Australia a jingostic nationalism has taken on board some earlier traits of Central European nationalism of the 1800s:
"....the (national) soul became the property of the collective rather than the individual, and it became morally corrupting - a convenient excuse for lack of achievement, encouraging individuals and communities alike to blame their own inadequacies, misfortunes and follies on others. In this way love of one's own people came to be measured in terms of hatred of others"
Whatever happened to the comfortable, dry, laconic, anti authoritarian and tolerant Australians (able to laugh at themselves)? Like the film "The Castle" (also from producers of Frontline) mid 90s, which was a huge success internationally, as it showed good Oz values of the little man with values and ethics standing up to power and authority.....but different now....
#54
Re: Are "plane people" better than "boat people"?
Why do they need access to an Australian Embassy? They have access to enough funds to pay smugglers to take them on boats to another country, why could they not use those funds to make a legal application for refugee status for their families? They have access to airports to take them to another country, why could they not use that plane to take them (and their families) to a safer part of their country?
#55
Banned
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,054
Re: Are "plane people" better than "boat people"?
If Australia can not keep a few boat loads of unarmed queue jumpers out of Australia, what message would that send to the teaming billions of Yellow Peril slavering and pulling at their fetters, waiting to invade en masse, cut our throats and blow us to smith-ereens?
#56
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2002
Location: An expat Aussie trying to understand why anyone wants to move to Oz.
Posts: 485
Re: Are "plane people" better than "boat people"?
This article says MANY more non genuine refugees arrive by plane than boat.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574...02-421,00.html
Boat people are "better" in that they are more likely to be genuine. Case closed.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574...02-421,00.html
Boat people are "better" in that they are more likely to be genuine. Case closed.
#57
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Are "plane people" better than "boat people"?
This article says MANY more non genuine refugees arrive by plane than boat.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574...02-421,00.html
Boat people are "better" in that they are more likely to be genuine. Case closed.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574...02-421,00.html
Boat people are "better" in that they are more likely to be genuine. Case closed.
A total of 4768 "plane people" - more than 96 per cent of applicants for refugee status - arrived by aircraft in 2008 on legitimate tourist, business and other visas compared with 161 who arrived by boat during the same period, the Sunday Telegraph reports
#58
Re: Are "plane people" better than "boat people"?
I wanted to share this because it is nice to hear a positive outcome to what is without a doubt a terrible situation.
I always say there but for the grace of God go I. We don't choose where we are born or what race we are and if any of us were in 'their' situation who is to say we wouldn't do exactly the same to save our children. I have a cosy, comfy western existence , however, if my children were in danger and I felt I had no other option I wouldn't think twice about breaking the law to save them.
#59
Re: Are "plane people" better than "boat people"?
I always say there but for the grace of God go I. We don't choose where we are born or what race we are and if any of us were in 'their' situation who is to say we wouldn't do exactly the same to save our children. I have a cosy, comfy western existence , however, if my children were in danger and I felt I had no other option I wouldn't think twice about breaking the law to save them.
#60
Re: Are "plane people" better than "boat people"?
[QUOTE=ACE;8042648]I also thought that this was the case until I watched a 'Hot Doc' on SBS the other night.
, these kids were saved and they and their families were so grateful to be here.
I wanted to share this because it is nice to hear a positive outcome to what is without a doubt a terrible situation.
QUOTE]
I was watching and SBS doco a couple of weeks ago about policing in certain areas.
It focussed on the Community Liasion officer with responsibility for Somalian refuges in Flemington Vic.
Many of the kids were really aggressive because there were not enough places provided for them to go in the evening. The Somalian youth club only had funding til 10pm and the video games van (provided by police I think) only was available twice per week.
I was astonished at the aggression shown to the poor policeman...where I live (only a few kms from Flemington and in an area with an assortment of migrants/refugees- no one group) nothing is provided.
Definitely no sign of " whew what a relief we are somewhere safe"....
, these kids were saved and they and their families were so grateful to be here.
I wanted to share this because it is nice to hear a positive outcome to what is without a doubt a terrible situation.
QUOTE]
I was watching and SBS doco a couple of weeks ago about policing in certain areas.
It focussed on the Community Liasion officer with responsibility for Somalian refuges in Flemington Vic.
Many of the kids were really aggressive because there were not enough places provided for them to go in the evening. The Somalian youth club only had funding til 10pm and the video games van (provided by police I think) only was available twice per week.
I was astonished at the aggression shown to the poor policeman...where I live (only a few kms from Flemington and in an area with an assortment of migrants/refugees- no one group) nothing is provided.
Definitely no sign of " whew what a relief we are somewhere safe"....