walla

I'm really disappointed with this thread, it's quite appalling really.

I've read the link posted by Phoenix and what I've read I have to say is wrong just like any other cases of child abuse I read about on a daily basis(white men do it too, it's called paedophilia). It goes on in every part of society unfortunately.

This thread has degenerated into a racially motivated thread against Aboriginal people who are the original owners of the land we are privileged to live in.

Incidentally does anyone who has contributed to this thread know an Aboriginal person?

No wonder I hardly post on here these days......

iPom

Yes. My sister in law.

walla

Big family?

Bix

To degenerate means to get worse over time so as I joined the thread in it's later stages I suppose you are referring to my comments Dave.

Nothing I have said stems from any personal racialism on my part I can assure you and I am sorry if you interpreted it that way.

I have been quite surprised by what I have found here in FNQ on this subject and have tried to express what I see as some fundamental and underlying failures in addressing them.

Whilst my posts drifted somewhat from the original topic they were related as it all comes back to the same thing. What is acceptable to society at large and by that I mean beyond these shores.

Yes paedophilia does happen and is hounded and punished. The fact Aboriginals are a minority group should not in my opinion mean they are not answerable to the same punishment.....laws of the land.

To answer your question.....yes, I know Aboriginals. I live amongst them, work directly with them and meet them in my work.

I'm really sorry if what I said has upset you mate but it's how I see it and I repeat not founded on personal racialism.

geordie mandy

Hiya Walla
I may not know any aboriginals and the crime reported is disgusting and to me it does not matter who commited the offence, those that did need punishing.
I will agree it is paedophillia which sickens me to the core. These children need protecting from offenders whether they are white Australians or aborginies. that fact that this crime was committed by aborigines reflects on peoples comments. I certainly try to treat every one as equals but that crime needs something to be done by it.
i would hope that there would be aboriginal representation in courts so that all those being punished got a fair hearing.
i dont think this thread has been unfair to aboringines all it is trying to do is the impossible task of finding solutions.
I know i shall be doing more research into aboginal australia so that when i do arrive i can hopefully associate amongst them. As you rightly say it is their land we live on, but that does not give any one the license to commit crime.
No matter colour or creed.
Mandy

djfbug

Well said Mandy - I didn't feel the post had degenerated into a racial slanging match and my comments were really "What the hell can be done!"

Pollyana

Actually, I have to disagree there. This was a topic that could very easily have descended into a multitude of racist comments, but it has actually been very balanced and realistic.

If you've read Bix's posts you will have seen that he does know Aboriginal people (hardly surprising as he hails from Cairns) and he has posted a very fair view of his dealings with them. I often come into contact with Aboriginal and Torres Strait people at work, and during the cyclone recovery work have had more dealings than normal, and I would echo many of the views and opinions on here, based on my own personal experiences.
Its an excellent discussion - long may it run.

walla

I wasn't alluding to Bix's posts.

geordie mandy

Walla who is it that has upset you so much? As far as i can see no one has been offensive about aboriginals .
Mandy

Sunny_Glesga

Well Said!

I have read a few of the posts on this subject and my opinion is that no matter who you are, where your from, what cultures and beliefs that you may have in any shape or form, Crimes like this should be dealt with in the most harshest way possible!

I am absolutely sickened to the core that things like this can happen and there is any doubt of how this should be dealt with!

Lets just have a thought that no matter who would be committing this crime ( if its part of their culture or who they have been for whatever how many years) they, whoever come to the UK, Should we allow this to happen here withought anything being done about it as its their way in their own country? or should they simply be allowed to commit these horrendous crimes in their own country?

No matter what this should not be allowed to happen, what needs to be done to stop this SHOULD be done no matter what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If`s, But`s, Cultures B****ks. Something needs to be done!

hedgehog

I agree with you totally. I don't think the attitude should be "well there only harming their own" or "It was their country originally after all, so they can do what they want" This is the 21st century and these people should be prosecuted regardless of the colour of their skin. They are not animals who kill/hunt to survive they are human beings so they should act and be treated that way. Regardless of someones religious beliefs or the colour of their skin, there has to be law and order for a country to stay civilised. I don't know anyone who thinks it is not WRONG to rape/ murder a child so why don't the aborigines know this?. I think the excuse you took our land so we can do what we want will wear thin one day.

Vash the Stampede

To some extent, this is one of those awful Catch 22 situations.

Intervene, and the government will be accused of forcing white, Western culture on the indigenous population. People will claim that the government is returning to the policies of the "stolen generation" era. The cry will go up: "Australians don't care about the Aborigines!"

Do nothing, and the government will be accused of condoning violence and violent sex crimes. The cry will go up: "Australians don't care about the Aborigines!"

Either way, we are screwed.

You said it best in a later post, when you wrote:

Many people (Australians included) do not realise that some Aboriginal communities in remote areas are freely permitted to maintain tribal law; their societies are allowed to function outside the federal justice system, in the interests of preserving indigenous culture and tradition.

The motives behind this concession are admirable indeed, but the practical application is rife with moral and ethical dilemmas.

Aboriginal culture draws a distinct line between "secret men's business" and "secret women's business." Australia's legal system has generally respected and upheld this distinction, even in cases where Aboriginal testimony is presented in Western courts. In a couple of cases, female solicitors have been asked to leave the court when evidence which includes "secret men's business" is presented.

Problems arise when this distinction prevents the open discussion and confrontation of social problems within Aboriginal society. Violent crime is one such problem, and it is sadly systemic within remote Aboriginal communities.

The issue is complicated even further when Aboriginal and Western law is applied simultaneously to a case involving Aboriginal criminals and Aboriginal victims.

For example:
Source.

And again:
Source.

As far as I'm aware, spearing and flogging are not condoned by the United Nations Human Rights Commission. Yet they are condoned by Aboriginal law, for the purpose of enforcing that law.

Uphold Aboriginal law, and we break our commitment to the UNHRC. Prohibit Aboriginal law, and we break our commitment to the UNHRC.

How do we resolve this clash of cultures without unfairly discriminating against one of them?

There are other aspects of Aboriginal law which - although abhorrent to Western minds - are nevertheless upheld in remote Aboriginal communities and subsequently accepted by Western courts.

For example:
Source.

Legal under Aboriginal law; illegal under Western law. Which takes precedence?

There are plenty of other cases (see here and here) which highlight the desperate state of many Aboriginal communities.

Too often, the root of the problem is alcohol - easily accessible, and just as easily purchased with the government handouts which now constitute the most common form of income in these remote areas. Concurrent with the presence of alcohol is endemic substance abuse; illicit drugs, petrol-sniffing and glue-sniffing.

People often talk about the appalling state of Aboriginal health - and yes, it's terrible, and yes, more should be done, and yes, the government needs to put a hell of a lot more work into it.

But having said that, people often forget to mention (or perhaps don't even know?) that substance abuse and various forms of addiction are largely to blame. We can talk about the extent to which the Australian government is (or isn't) meeting its obligation to deal with these problems, but that's not the same as agreeing that the Australian government is responsible for them.

When you read about Aboriginal people in remote communities having a life-span less than half the length of their white counterparts, or suffering from 3rd World diseases, stop for a moment and ask yourself if this is really so surprising in a place where people regularly go into town for their dole money and spend it all on alcohol in the space of a week.

Then ask yourself what you would do to make everything better - because that's the big issue.

Sure, you can just throw money at the problem. But does this really solve anything...?

Source.

Where do we go from here? There is no easy answer. Year after year of increased funding has achieved limited results. Political storms over the role of ATSIC and its eventual demise have contributed little to the debate.

Blame-games and bickering between government agencies, lobby groups and charitable organisations have distracted them from the root causes of the problems, and divided the very organisations which are supposed to be united in their efforts to assist, protect and nurture the original inhabitants of Australia.

While it is universally agreed that something must be done, the solution - as ever - remains elusive.

geordie mandy

Vash that post is very informative and is helping me understand the whole aboriginal culture verses western culture and the problems associated with it.
I just feel sorry for the next generation of aborginies if there is no difference in the cycle of abuse and i suppose mistrust of western laws.
As you say no easy answers to such a complex problem
Mandy

Wendy

Nice post Vash. Thanks for taking the time to write it, it shows that we have much to learn.

K sent

Vash the Stampede

Thanks Mandy.

I feel strongly about this issue, not just because I had Aboriginal friends and workmates back home, but because it is something that ultimately affects the entire nation, and yet is so frequently misunderstood and misrepresented.