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Reading this today at work I was shocked by some of the comments in this report.

http://www.Australian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19149874-2702,00.html


The aboriginal communities *seem* on the whole to be displaced.

It got me thinking.

Does Australia enable aboriginal communities live their own lives relatively undisturbed and unchanged as they have for thousands of years, or does Australia intervene and integrate them into the majority*Australian* society?:confused:

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Good job I didn't post that :scared:

G

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Lets not scare monger though G.

These are not usual circumstances and I personally feel safer here than I ever did in the UK:)

The report focused on the fact these things happened in aboriginal territories and the problems associated with leaving the aboriginal communities to *police* themselves.

This got me thinking about things and whether these communities should be left to self manage and continue living the lives they have always lived, or whether the aboriginal communities should be encouraged to be integrated into mainstream Australian society?

The thread was started as a form of intelligent debate rather than demonstrating lawlessness here. After all...wherever there are people world over, there will be crime.

No one on here is that stupid to think otherwise.

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Most people won't care....it was amongst aborigines :rolleyes:

Doesn't apply to caucasians does it?...therefore it is irrelevant :(

G

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A tough one this...

Letting "mens bussiness" carry on? Which means anally raping and drowning 4 year olds,7month olds and 2 year olds.....and thats all i've read in the link...what the hell goes on that we dont know about?...:mad:

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I don't agree Grayling.

I think people do care but maybe they don't know what to do for the best:(

Perhaps it's one of those situations that whatever Australia does, it will be wrong i.e no win situation:confused:

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Or perhaps somewhere inbetween? :confused: White men screwed the aboriginal lifestyle many many years ago. And in the last however many years that they've been trying to find an answer, all those big brains have failed. I'm no expert, and I don't have an answer, but it makes me very very sad - the one black mark against this country.

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Well

Let's see what sort of responses there are.

G

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There could be some scare mongering going on in the report though Ransi and given the size of the aboriginal communities Vs the rest of Aus, it's not a massive problem in proportionate terms. This doesn't distract from the terrible tragedy of it all though:(

The question is.....does Australia let the aboriginal communities carry on living their own lives in their own way [as it seems to have done so far].... or does Australia expect aboriginies to become more mainstream and integrate within Australian society?

Is this a no win situation:confused:

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Yeh, I think this too. But then again, does Australia keep saying sorry and turn a blind eye for the *misgivings* of all those years ago:confused:

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Can you never have a positive slant on anything :confused: . I don't believe you are so embittered. With your work, you can't be. You regularly confuse the hell out me to be honest.

I am fairly ignorant of the Aborigines - I put my hand up to it. I realise there is a big big problem, I do read stuff, but am at a loss as to what I can do to actually make a difference. There are too many problems in the world and always have been, all I can do is make sure me and mine are as well versed as we can be and never discriminate against anyone.

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Yes...I hear what your saying.

It will never be sorted...too much hatred on both sides...sad for the little ones and thats all I care about...

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I do think that there seems to be a lot of "well that was in the past". I was appalled the other week here when the gov't allowed the aborigines to keep the sacred flame at Domain, but removed all their tents, thus leaving them to tend it in the open air.

Pretty heavy discussion topic, this one!

A while ago I went to a lecture/discussion thing. One of the women speaking was aboriginal. She told a story of an aboriginal lecturer in Queensland who collapsed of a stroke at a bus stop. It was 5 hours before anybody stopped to ask if she was okay, and then it was some Japanese students. Everybody else assumed she was just another drunk. When its easy to see what is right in a story like that, I question whether I myself would have stopped. Which makes me terribly, terribly ashamed.

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Come on

You know most people thinking of migrating (or most whites who live there) could not give a toss about the aborigines.

Just look at a lot of the racist nonsense that is put on here about people in the UK :rolleyes:

That is reality.

G

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This is a real toughy - these things go on in Africa and are reported in the UK press so you get a litte numb about it. Basically the Aboriginies are not a christian society - or muslim - or buddhist - or any other what we call mainstream religion and therefore we cannot understand or even start to understand their thought process when it comes to these henious crimes. They are still, what we would have called 200 years ago, savages, who live by their ways and rules and unless the Australian Government takes steps to integrate them into mainstream society they will never change.
Then comes the BIGGY - Why should they change? They have lived the same way for centuries and whilst they live in their own communities and do not commit crimes on the outside it does not concern the Oz Gov. The debate is - Should it?
I dont know the answer. Even if there is one I doubt it would be satisfactory to either the Aboriginies or the Liberal society we now live in

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I don't believe it's a case of not giving a toss. I believe it is more of a case of this is too huge for me to deal with. Also the majority of people who migrate, will go to areas where there are very few aborigines and so don't see the problem.

I know I have only seen one boy and his father and that's because he goes to the same swimming lessons as my girls. They are - sorry, no, they appear to be fully integrated into the western world. If you don't see the problem, and the media don't flog it, people will be ignorant of the problem.

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Yes, I saw that case on the news thribble and you've just reminded me of it.
What a very, very sad case that was too.

Having said this, I've seen it where Australians dare not do or say anything to offend the Aborigines even when the Aborigines were acting drunk and disorderly and extremely rude.

It's almost like Australia is standing on egg shells.....yet the only ones who are suffering are the innocent:o

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I can see where you're coming from Ransi, but what does humane society do?

Does society ignore it and let the Aboriginal communities do their own thing or do we intervene and expect the communities to integrate?

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I am myself from South Africa originally, I have seen and know the problems that they are experiencing over there between differing tribes and of course whites but I am truly astounded with the off the cuff discussion about the Aborigines and their traditions. Yes they have not been inter-grated into society as they should have been and maybe they don't want to be but for God's sake a line has to be drawn somewhere to stop that sort of thing. Those children have no way of defending themselves. Religion plays no part in it. These men know they are doing wrong. To suggest they don't means they are not human or cannot think for themselves. Australia is a first world country, it shames me to think that the people that run it think there is nothing that can be done. If that is the case then we are all in trouble. The problem has to be addressed not just left . Examples have to be made.

Go on and shoot me down now.

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Grayling, I'm not saying Aus is any less racist than anywhere else in the world but *most* of Australian society is not racist.

As for not giving a toss about the aborigines. From what I've seen / heard so far, to be fair, the Aussies are great believers in *a fair go*...and so long as people muck in then they do seem to gain respect here. However, the fact that aboriginies in the main do not want to integrate and are not bothered about integrating into the Australian society, then how can the two cultures integrate?

Should Australia / Australians take full responsibility for this and does this mean Australians don't care? My ersonal experience is that the Aussies I have come across are as upset and dissapointed as we all are, but are at a loss as what to do.

It's almost like when a parent of a wayward child blames themself for having let their kid down. They know they've done their best, but the kid still hates them and rebels at all cost:confused:

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I want to thank you for starting this thread, as a potential migrant to oz in my naivety i thought aboriginals were integrated into Australian society.I did not realise that there were area's that only aboriginals lived.

Or is it a case of only a minority live in their own area's and the majority are integrated?

The newspaper article has truly shocked me, i know things like that occasionally happen in the UK and of course become media stories.
Are their no aboriginal police that could 'police' their own. Not wishing to be appear racist as i am not but in the Uk different ethnic minorities are actively encouraged to join the police so that those ethnics can have some one in authority that understands customs and beliefs

Mandy

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That's a good point. From my very limited experience and understanding I gather the aboriginals are in the main a peaceful and simple society. Perhaps the fact they just want to be left alone [rather than fight back] means they are an *easy target* to just leave alone? Taking a pasive stance is perhaps not the answer though becuase it just means they stand still and never move on in their thinking?

Agree. But how does Australia do this without seeming like they are taking away the aboriginal way of life, the very fabric of their culture:confused:

Yes, food for thought there. But hasn't every culture had to change otherwise we would still be living as our ancestors in the previous centuries? As for crime, can we expect the aboriginal communities to have their own justice systems within the same country? Why would it be unreasonable to expect the aboriginal communities to have the same law as the rest of Australia? Of course I see the alternative,and the effects, but what choice is there? Maybe the answer is not the one to suit everyone, but surely someone has to chose the lesser of two evils...

Agree m8. Some very good points you made here:(

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Hi Mandy:)

Some great points there. In terms of integration, to be honest it doesn't seem to happen as far as I can see.

I work for a very large organisation which is the least racial company I know, yet there are NO Aborigines who work where I do [there about 500 people]. The company has asked it's workers if they know any indigenous people and if they could put their names forward for work, but the reality is Aborigines seem to keep themselves to themselves and so there is very little interaction. On the other hand, there are lots of islanders who work where I do and they seem to feel comfortable integrating and they are treated just like anyone else so there is definitely no racism.

Regarding your point re where Aborigines live. That's a really valid point cos when I came to live here I expected to see more aborigines than I have. It was only when I lived here that I realised that again, Aborigines do not seem to live in urbanised areas and tend to stay within their own communities.

As for aboriginal police. Well this is in effect what has happened so far Mandy except it has been the *elders* who have taken on responsibility. The difficulty though has been there seems to be no real law and order, and lots of embarrassing cover ups. I suppose if we left all cultures to do the same then the same problem would exist...

It's a tough nut to crack this one isn't it:o

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It certainly is Phoenixinoz, it has certainly opened my eyes to the situation, i hope a solution can be found in the not too distant future as what is currently happening is obviuosly not working.
Does any one know if there are aboriginal representives in local govenment and in parliment as there can only be fundemental changes started if there are representives to help in that process.
No one should be allowed to be lawless in any society no matter who they are.
Mandy

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I agree with you this lawlessness is disgusting and certainly does need to be addressed
Mandy :)

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Drive them into the ozone layer in the hope they all burn..:eek:

Thing is they are untouchable...Aus gov's fault for licking their arses too many times,so now they dont know when to stop or simply couldnt give a shit,knowing that most non abos are willing to walk on egg shells...so unless they get treated as equal citizens,which wont happen,its a vicious circle.

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I understood 'Abo' to be a derogatory term that wasn't really approved of, but perhaps I'm wrong. My FIL here is a redneck but even he's stopped saying it. I would like to think we could bother to write out the whole of the word given the amount people are saying, it shouldn't cause too much RSI, should it?

:)

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I hope they find a solution too Mandy. I guess it's gonna take some hard decisions to make it work:(

There are some Aborigines in government, although how many I'm not sure and I'm not sure if they are proportionate to the population either:confused:

On that note, I think I read somewhere that the aborigine population is something like <5% of the population I think? If this is correct, it's not a lot is it?

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This is very much at the core of where it's failing.

Nearly every habitated land the world over has been screwed by some other nation or tribe at some point in it's history. At what point does man forget the past ? Not in the sense of not remembering but in the sense of moving on.

WW2 was horrific but both Germany and Japan have come through it and moved with society.

I don't believe the Aborigine thing is the one black mark against this nation.
Get over it and move on.

The world has moved on so the Aborigine must do the same. Conform or join the dinosaurs. Where are the pygmies of the Amazon ? The headhunters of Borneo ? Like it or not they are being or have been forced to conform. That's what civilization is.

Again I say like it or not that's how the world races have evolved and what "we" have created and are about. Why do we as the U.N. not tolerate the many horrors in the world and try to do something about it ? Uganda, Chile, Iraq etc. It's not always about oil but also humanitarian reasons. May be slow to act sometimes but eventually action is taken.

So what's the difference here ? The buggers should be strung up.

Oh, and we don't call them Aborigine any more. It's now Traditional Owners. Poppycock. It's time the eggshells were broken and Australia treated them like they were Australian.

FNQ has probably the largest population and you can see the current attempts are failing miserably. Pick up a newspaper and a very common quote from the courts is "the young offender was of Aboriginal descent". Nine out of ten crimes by young people here appear to be. Is that a system that is working for the Aboriginal and society ? Of course not.

Nothing will be achieved until the governments here stop throwing money at them which in a lot of cases end up in the bottle shop coffers. They don't have to earn a living so why should they give a shit about anything ? And they don't. As in so many cases the only answer is education.

Excuse some of my generalisations but I think you get the picture.

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No one I know calls them aboriginals...

Must be an Aus thing,words get shortened.

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Maybe one day all will be sorted:cool:

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I think this one has been classed as being of a racial slur nature, in the same way 'Spick' for Spanish etc.

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The large majority of Australians I have met call them just that Ransi. Maybe not to their faces but pretty openly amongst "whites".

They also declare quite a hatred for them which surprised me a lot. Not for Asians, not for Islanders, but definitely toward the Traditional Owners.

It's interesing seeing a PC government who appear out of touch with the way it's people think on this subject. Or maybe they are not.

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I must be racist then.

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I'm a janner :D Pleased to meet you.

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\i was quite shocked at the hatred too...until I watched the news on matters regarding the TO's..( :rolleyes: ).

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As you've adopted something your friends say, it doesn't make you racist.

Now that you know, you could take the decision to stop saying it. ;)

And I suppose, now that you know it's a racial slur, and you continued to say it, that would be a different matter, wouldn't it?!

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Yes mam... :rolleyes:

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Some excellent points spoken from experience and the heart Lion King:)

Prior to moving to Aus, I was of the opinion that the Aboriginal people had [and still were] being mistreated. Having read numerous Aboriginal history books and spoken to Aboriginal people and those who work closely with their communities, there is no doubt in the past this was the case.

However from what I personally can see today, things have changed.

Australia has said sorry for its past and at the end of the day it can't re-write history. What's done is done. Perhaps what Australia can do is stop taking a passive stance, stop stepping on eggshells and start to integrate the Aboriginal communities by creating equal responsibility?

Perhaps then as you say, things will change:confused:

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That's the spirit Ransi. ;)