Zentack

Ok so this won't apply to the vast majority of people on this forum, but I thought it might catch someone else out.

I have dual French and British citizenship (guess that makes me a Froggy Pom ) but wasn't born in the UK. Having just moved to Brizzie and started a family I have found that my Australian born son can't get British citizenship because I wasn't born in the UK!! Well that’s what the British embassy tell me.

The irony is that France doesn't seem to care where you or your child is born, citizenship is just based on at least one parent being French. So the good news is that junior can still work and live in Europe / UK if he chooses.

Maybe its just me, but this seems a bit crazy.

Papa Z

fairgoes

Yup, that's right. I have a British passport, but born in Zimbabwean. My children cannot get a British passport either. But my sister who was born in UK, both of her children now have British passports. Pretty tight restrictions, but I can see why. Although, a friend of mine has an Irish passport through her grandmother, neither her mom or her were born in Ireland! And in Zim, I've been out of the country for over 2 years now, they probably won't even let me back in as a resident!.....but that's another story.

Shellfish

I have two ridiculous scenarios:

1) My husband. His mom was born in the UK but he couldn't get a passport because 'back in the day', you could only get one through your father. Margaret Thatcher finally changed the law but it wasn't retrospective meaning his sister, born after 1983, could get one but he couldn't. The best he did was an ancestry visa through his grandmother born in the UK (she was good enough, but his own mother wasn't )

2) My cousin who, born in S.Africa, has a British passport through her dad. Went over to the UK with her husband (he on a spousal visa). They have lived there for 5 years and he now qualifies for a british passport through naturalisation. If they go back to SA, and divorce and remarry (which is possible) his children will qualify for British passports (because he was naturalised which is the equivalent to being born there) but her kids won't because she wasn't born there. So his kids get passports because of her British passport - that to me is so ridiculous

S.Africa has gone the completely opposite route, if you are a SA citizen you have to travel in out of SA on a SA passport by law now - obviously so that you can't claim duty

JAJ

If all of the following apply your son can be registered as a British citizen even though you are only British 'by descent':

- you yourself have a British born parent; and
- you have lived in the UK for a continuous period of three years; and
- application is made before the child is 12 months old (so don't waste time).

The would be other options if you later move back to the UK.

Read this page:
http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind...tizenship.html

Assuming your child is born recently, pay particular attention to the following paragraphs: 4, 8, 9B, 9D, 15 and 20.

If your child is eligible for British citizenship immediately and this is what you want to do (bearing in mind what it says in paragraph 15), go back to the High Commission or Consulate and insist that you want to make an application for the child under section 3(2) of the British Nationality Act 1981.

If this hasn't been mentioned to you before - don't worry, many consular officials are unfamiliar with this particular process. Give them the weblink and tell them to look it up if necessary.

Historically France has had fewer citizens going overseas compared to the UK, and hence less need to legislate to prevent citizenship passing endlessly down the generations overseas.

Incidentally don't rely on a French passport to give your child access to the UK - all you'd need would be for a future British government to impose immigration restrictions on other EU states and your child would be snookered. By the time your child is grown up - anything could happen.

Is your child also an Australian citizen?

Jeremy

JAJ

Where were your children born - UK or Zimbabwe? If they're UK born they're automatically British with a British citizen parent.

If they are Zimbabwe born, but living in the UK now and have a British citizen parent, the Home Office would normally be prepared to register them under the discretionary provisions of the law (but they would also be British 'by descent' like you in that case).

If you've lived in the UK for three years, they can be registered as British under s3(5) of the 1981 Act and will then be British *otherwise then by descent*.

Read the weblink to the IND site I quoted in my previous post.

Jeremy

JAJ

When was your husband born? If he was born on 8 Feb 1961 or later, he should now be able register as a British citizen under a new concession introduced in 2003 for overseas born children of British mothers.
http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind...tizenship.html

Otherwise - if he's in the UK for 3+ years, why doesn't he consider naturalisation?

He needs to get permission from the SA government if he wants to keep South African citizenship.

If she has lived in the UK for 3 years, and has a British born parent herself, any South African born children in future will be eligible to be registered as British provided she applies within 12 months of the birth. She needs to be aware of this so as not to miss any deadline - read the page on the IND website I quoted on my reply to Zentack.

Incidentally if you're married to a British citizen, it's 3 years to be eligible for naturalisation - not 5.

Jeremy

Zentack

Thanks Jeremy,

As always you are a font of all knowledge and a gentleman to boot!! I just wish the UK embassy was equally well informed.

My son has only just turned 3 months so I have still got some time to get these issues reconciled.

Best Regards

Papa Z

JAJ

The information is on the British High Commission website too:
http://bhc.britaus.net/passports/pas...ult.asp?id=344

The deadline of 12 months is not usually flexible so make sure that you apply before this (and get proof of having made the application). Even if you have to send some additional information later.

A section 3(2) application does require evidence of your own parent's UK birth and citizenship (birth certs for both parents, and parent's marriage cert) and your own residence in the UK for 3 years, so get working on the evidence immediately.

The way it works is that you lodge the application at the consulate or High Commission, and they forward it to the Home Office in Liverpool who send back a Certificate of Registration if approved (it will be if the requirements are met as it's an entitlement).

Three months is a typical processing time if all documentation is provided and the requirements are met.

Once you have a Certificate of Registration you can apply for the child to have a British passport. However the passport bit is not compulsory when you have a citizenship cert.

As noted once your child is British by descent it can't switch to being British 'otherwise than by descent' even if it moves back to the UK later, but with a 12 month time limit you really don't have flexibility to choose between registration options unless a move to the UK is imminent.

Jeremy

Shellfish

This is very helful as always , thanks Jeremy

SGallagher

Technically, it's not because you weren't born in the UK.
It's probably because you are British by descent. Are you?

It's possible that a person may not be born in the UK,
but still be eligible to pass citizenship (citizens by naturalisation
and certain citizens by registration). You don't state how
you acquired your British citizenship. It's important to
verify here, just to make sure that the British embassy
didn't make a mistake.

Not really. Britain allows people who are citizens "other than
by descent" to pass citizenship to children born abroad,
but they do not allow it for citizens "by descent". This is
to prevent an endless line of British citizens who could
have little or no ties to Britain, if they simply allowed
citizenship to pass endlessly.

Some other countries do allow people who are citizens
by descent to also pass their citizenship, IF they
or the children maintain their ties with the country.

For example, a US citizen can pass citizenship to a
foreign born child IF he has spent a certain amount
of time in the US. Alternatively, Canada allows
any Canadian to pass citizenship to foreign born
children. BUT, if the child's parent is ALSO a
citizen by descent then when the child becomes an
adult he must live in Canada for several years and
then apply to retain his Canadian citizenship.

Britain offers no such option. If a person is British
by descent, he cannot normally acquire any right
to pass citizenship, even if he strengthens his ties
to Britain.

JAJ

Britain does not *normally* allow it but there are exceptions. The most common exception is section 3(2) of the British Nationality Act 1981. The criteria are as follows:

- the British parent himself or herself has a British born parent; and
- the British parent has lived in the UK or a qualifying British territory for a continuous period of three years before the child is born; and
- application is made before the child is 12 months old

There are further concessions available if the child is stateless, the child comes to live in the UK, or there is some exceptional circumstance justifying discretionary registration.


As noted above, many British citizens by descent who have lived in the UK a long time can use s3(2) registration to get British citizenship for overseas born children - the problem is finding out about the facility in time to make an application for the child within the time limit of 12 months. There is anecdotal evidence that many British consular employees are not as aware of this facility as they should be.

Jeremy

Zentack

Thanks again Jeremy and SGallagher for all the information. Definitely given me some food for thought. I can sympathise with Ashera's "Passport Dilemma" post.

Having read through a lot of the British citizenship stuff on the government website. I was wondering if there is a pressing need to apply for the British by decent citizenship.

To elaborate, the only reason that I wanted my son to have British citizenship was in the case that Hell (a small town in outback NT ) does freeze over and I decide to move back to the UK. If I don't apply for citizenship by decent what are my options for a 'very unlikely' UK return? As I understand it I would have to apply for a residency visa for my son and then after 3 years of bliss in the UK he could then be naturalised. Have I got this right or am I barking up the wrong gum tree?

Indecently I was born in NZ (hence my affinity for southern climes) and my wife is Japanese. So as you can imagine it gets hard to decide on who I should cheer for in the rugby

Best Regards

Papa Z

JAJ

You could sponsor him for a visa (or possibly take him in on a French passport), and after 3 years in the UK he could be *registered* as British under s3(5) of the British Nationality Act 1981 (not s3(2)).

Section 3(5) registration gives British citizenship otherwise than by descent, like naturalisation.

Naturalisation is only for adults, and requires 5 years residence unless married to a British citizen.

The real problem for him would be if you don't return to the UK when he is a child, it limits his options when he is older if you don't get him British citizenship now. He might be able to get an ancestry visa but there's no guarantee this will still exist (and the ancestry visa has restrictions on what you can do). Ditto for using a French passport, although that does have fewer restrictions in the UK compared to the ancestry visa.

Planning to do a s3(5) rather than s3(2) registration may make sense if a return to the UK is highly likely, and the child has another Western nationality/passport. If neither of these apply, then s3(2) is the main option but is time limited (12 months) so if you let it pass and don't return to the UK, he doesn't get British citizenship unless he migrates there in future and naturalises as an adult.

As his parent you have a responsibility to consider the options and do what is best for him.


Have you obtained a New Zealand passport for him?

I presume you're aware he's only Australian if either you or your wife have PR - your NZ citizenship is not enough to make him Australian unless you're an 'eligible' NZ citizen.

Jeremy

SGallagher

I guess it was a poor choice of words. What I was
emphasizing was that while a British citizen (other than by
descent) can <<automatically>> pass his citizenship to his
children born abroad, a British citizen by descent can
never acquire the ability to <<automatically>> pass his
citizenship to his foreign born children, even if he were
to strengthen his ties to the UK (with a significant
period of residence, for example). Is that not correct?

A British citizen (by descent) may have some avenues
to register his foreign born children. But they must
be registered. It's not automatic.

Stephen Gallagher

JAJ

That is correct. A British citizen by descent can never automatically pass on British citizenship to *overseas* born children no matter how he strengthens his ties with the UK.

However, strengthening ties with the UK may - depending on circumstances - allow overseas born children to be registered a British citizens more easily. It is therefore not correct to state that a British citizen by descent can never pass on citizenship to overseas born children.

It is important to know that the facility is there (and the time limits involved) in order to be able to make use of it. Lots of people who could have registered their children as British have 'missed the boat' because they were not aware of the time limits.

Jeremy