Obscure Rules in Oz
#121
Home and Happy
Joined: Dec 2002
Location: Keep true friends and puppets close, trust no-one else...
Posts: 93,816
Re: Obscure Rules in Oz
Originally Posted by moneypen20
Oh b*gger, I really will have to cancel the visa now :scared:
#122
Re: Obscure Rules in Oz
Originally Posted by Pollyana
Such a shame isn't it!!! Mind you, you might get away with the bright purple ones
#123
Re: Obscure Rules in Oz
Originally Posted by Un-Co
"Rooted" means something very different in Australia)
#124
Re: Obscure Rules in Oz
Originally Posted by The Jones Family
'You must park in the direction of the traffic flow or you will get a parking fine. If this saves a couple of people from the $50.00 I've just had to pay that would be great!'
#125
Re: Obscure Rules in Oz
Originally Posted by manxfamily
I read somewhere, I thought it was on ourbrisbane.com but I cant find it again, that you cant use power tools on the weekend or public holidays due to the noise polution effect.
I also read somewhere that if you own a cat it has to be kept indoors because its a danger to the natural wildlife!!
I also read somewhere that if you own a cat it has to be kept indoors because its a danger to the natural wildlife!!
Somewhere in Melbourne I believe one of the local councils recently introduced a law preventing people from hoovering/vacuuming at night time.
#126
Re: Obscure Rules in Oz
Originally Posted by kirsty&al
Pokies are generally fun
eh?? none of the ones I've seen are!
#127
India-M'chester-Syd('05)
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 85
Re: Obscure Rules in Oz
Yum cha restaurant workers will have to pass a 'driving licence' under new regulations from sydney city council!!
(for once, there seems to be genuine concern behind this move)
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/...544541410.html
(for once, there seems to be genuine concern behind this move)
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/...544541410.html
Last edited by base_sydney; May 13th 2005 at 11:10 pm.
#128
Re: Obscure Rules in Oz
Originally Posted by JayDeee
mmmmmmmmmmmmmm and getting back to the original thread
You aren't allowed to cross the road within so far of a crossing or junction or you get a fine
Kala
You aren't allowed to cross the road within so far of a crossing or junction or you get a fine
Kala
The police out here in the country/bush obviously have nothing better to to (otherperhaps than sit at the edge of town with brathalyser and radar gun!) as I have seen them a few times in Bairnsdale town centre sit in their car near the traffice lights and shout through a loud-hailer at people at people crossing the street without the green man sign! Havent seen and deaths or injuries reported in the local paper related to this so cannot see how they justify doing it other than not having much else to do.
#129
Re: Obscure Rules in Oz
Some more "quirky" vehicle related laws you could get fined for:
Leaving your windows open (even slightly) whilst the car is unattended
Being more than 3 metres away from your vehicle and leaving passengers under the age of sixteen unattended
leaving the keys in your car whilst paying for fuel
leaving the engine running whilst not in the vehicle
leaving the vehicle unattended with the handbrake off (even if an automatic transmission in "park" position).
Driving along with your arm resting on the driver's door window.
Also in the same report I saw this story:
A lad got booked for pulling up outside his mate's house on a saturday afternoon and tooting his horn to call his mate. There was an off duty copper in one of the houses nearby that came out and booked him because the lad in the car had woke the copper up from an afternoon nap!!
Leaving your windows open (even slightly) whilst the car is unattended
Being more than 3 metres away from your vehicle and leaving passengers under the age of sixteen unattended
leaving the keys in your car whilst paying for fuel
leaving the engine running whilst not in the vehicle
leaving the vehicle unattended with the handbrake off (even if an automatic transmission in "park" position).
Driving along with your arm resting on the driver's door window.
Also in the same report I saw this story:
A lad got booked for pulling up outside his mate's house on a saturday afternoon and tooting his horn to call his mate. There was an off duty copper in one of the houses nearby that came out and booked him because the lad in the car had woke the copper up from an afternoon nap!!
#130
Rocket Scientist
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Dreamland AKA Brisbane which is a different country to the UK
Posts: 6,911
Re: Obscure Rules in Oz
Originally Posted by Simone
If children are left in danger etc etc, parents should be prosecuted etc etc. Doesn't have to be a seperate law for it. Because there'll be other laws where it can fall under, and stupid idiots don't look at the laws anyway.
On behalf of the Opposition I introduce the Children and Young Persons (Care and Protection) Amendment (Child Abuse or Neglect) Bill, whose purpose is to enable the New South Wales courts to impose a custodial sentence on
people convicted of serious incidents of child abuse and neglect. It hardly needs to be said that child abuse is an extremely serious matter, and that those who commit crimes against children need to be given a strong message as a deterrent against others doing the same thing, and as a denunciation of their action. Most people would take it for granted that a person who commits a criminal act of negligence that puts a child's life in danger or at serious risk of physical or psychological harm will face a gaol penalty. But, sadly, that is not the case in New South Wales.
Currently the harshest penalty available for serious acts of neglect and abuse in New South Wales is a maximum fine of $22,000. That amount is not much more than the current maximum fine of $11,000 for an act of cruelty to an animal under the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act. Additionally there is a maximum six-month gaol penalty for a serious act of cruelty to an animal but there is no gaol penalty for an act of abuse or neglect against children. Other
Government legislation before the House is aimed at doubling the fine for an act of cruelty against an animal from $11,000 to $22,000. That means that this State will have harsher penalties for acts of cruelty to animals than for similar offences against children. It is ludicrous that the offence of tying up a horse in a paddock and starving it almost to the point of death attracts a heavier penalty than a similar offence against a child, such as abandoning it in a car to dehydrate in the hot sun. In the case of cruelty to the horse the offender faces a possibility of six months in gaol and a
fine of $22,000, while the offender who harms a child is free of any threat of a goal sentence and stands to pay a monetary fine that is no more severe.
It is almost as if the State has gone back to the future. One of the western world's first successful prosecutions for child abuse and neglect took place in New York in 1875. It involved a 10-year-old girl, Ellen McCormack, who was found tied to a bed like an animal, neglected and brutally beaten by her foster parents. The offenders in that matter were prosecuted under laws for cruelty to animals because at the time there was no penalty for the neglect and abuse of children. In August this year, magistrate Alan Railton attempted to impose a 12-month gaol term on a 30-year-old man after it was proved that he had recklessly endangered the life of his four-week-old baby son by abandoning him in a yard. The offender compounded his offence by refusing to assist police in locating the baby so that they could rescue it.
Fortunately the baby was found unharmed. The man was charged and convicted of neglecting the baby under the Children and Young Persons (Care and Protection) Act. The magistrate thought the offence merited a 12-month gaol term and he imposed that sentence. But the sentence was overturned after it was pointed out to the court that the Children and Young Persons (Care and Protection) Act does not provide for a gaol penalty for abuse and neglect.
Sadly there are people in this society who place such a small value on the welfare of children that they will knowingly place them at risk of great harm. Often the offender is a not the child's parent but someone who is prepared to risk harming a child to escape detection for a criminal offence. We all remember the sad case of baby Leo, who died of hypothermia in a car in December 2000 after it was stolen and abandoned by a thief. The car thief put the life of the child at risk, and that resulted in the death of the child. Since then there have been other cases of car thieves taking vehicles with children inside and abandoning them. They commit the offence of car theft, which does carry a gaol penalty, but they also put a child's life in danger. The Opposition believes that this is an additional matter for which the courts should have the option of imposing a further gaol penalty.
I know of another case before the courts in which a 24-year-old woman was charged under the Children and Young Persons (Care and Protection) Act after she failed to tell doctors or police that her three-year-old daughter had
swallowed five ecstasy tablets. The child swallowed the tablets while she was unsupervised in a motel room where her mother had taken a prostitution client for sex. Police allege that she knew all along that her daughter had swallowed a dangerous quantity of drugs and she refused to tell them exactly what had happened to her daughter. A police officer allegedly asked her 20 times to tell him what her daughter had swallowed and she refused to say anything even though her daughter required intubation, eventually lapsed into a coma, and nearly died. A number of times the police officer involved in the matter approached the woman, assuring her that she would not get into trouble for the drugs, and that he just wanted her to give information vital for saving the life of her child. In a similar situation, in the absence of a gaol penalty for the offence of abuse and neglect, the police are not able to say that the consequences of not giving this sort of information will be more severe than the penalty they may face for any other crime that may be uncovered as a
result. Police need to be in a position to say, when it is becoming obvious that a person is not being co-operative, that
there is a risk of a gaol penalty if they do not co-operate. I will not comment further on the matter, but my purpose is simply to illustrate the types of offences that are covered by the law now, for which the maximum penalty is a fine of only $22,000.
The Opposition agrees with former Police Inspector John Heslop, who has a much-respected reputation for spending his career in New South Wales Police fighting child abuse. He commented on the outcome of the Central Coast matter I spoke about earlier by saying that the case was "another sign that society had failed to move with the times". He also said, "If you have a dog, your treatment of that dog can have worse implications than your treatment of a baby," and "if you look at the kind of things the neglect of children could cause, it can be catastrophic". There is reason to be concerned about societal attitudes to child neglect. A recent national public opinion survey showed that adults ranked child abuse as less of a concern than council rates. Child abuse and neglect are described in sections 227 and 228 of
the Children and Young Persons (Care and Protection) Act 1998. The Act provides that a person who "intentionally takes action that has resulted in or appears likely to result in" the physical injury or sexual abuse of a young child or a young person, or any intentional act that causes a child or a young person to be "significantly damaged" or which causes the physical development of a child to be "significantly harmed", is guilty of an offence. A person is also guilty of an offence if they leave a child or young person unsupervised in a motor vehicle.
This bill imposes a penalty of two years gaol for this offence if the matter is prosecuted in a Local Court and judged by a magistrate, and a maximum penalty of five years if the offence is prosecuted as an indictable offence in the Supreme Court before a judge. Amendments to the Criminal Procedure Act 1986 allow prosecuting authorities to elect to proceed summarily, in which case the maximum gaol penalty can be two years, or on indictment, with a penalty of five years. The bill also increases the maximum fines for child abuse and neglect from the current maximum fine of $22,000 to a maximum of $44,000 if the prosecutor elects to proceed on indictment. The maximum penalty of $22,000 remains for a summary offence, as this is the largest amount a magistrate in a Local Court can impose by way of fine. When we first announced this bill the Government claimed that there were already gaol penalties in the Crimes Act for child abuse or neglect. I imagine it was thinking of sections 43 and 44 of the Crimes Act 1900 which provide for a fiveyear
gaol penalty for anyone who "unlawfully abandons or exposes any child under the age of two years" such that the child's life or health is endangered, or for anyone who is "legally liable to provide necessary food, clothing, or lodging"
to "any wife, child, ward, apprentice, or servant or any insane person" but wilfully fails to do so. I have been told by police that they would never be able to use these laws today because their wording is obviously archaic, they are in some cases limited in their application to children under two, and they can only be tried on indictment where the burden of proof for the prosecution is to prove to a jury beyond reasonable doubt that the alleged offender whose actions put the child at risk deliberately intended to harm the child. These laws are too high a benchmark to be of any effective use in protecting children. They need to be urgently reviewed. This bill is an attempt to do that. The indictable offence in this bill could well replace the offences outlined in sections 43 and 44 of the Crimes Act. I have not moved to repeal those
provisions in case I cause unintended consequence. However, if the Government advises that it is safe to do so, I would willingly agree to do that in the bill by way of amendment.
The significant difference between the offences outlined in the Crimes Act and those outlined in the Children and Young Persons (Care and Protection) Act is that the onus placed on the prosecution in proving a case against the
accused is different. Under the Children and Young Persons (Care and Protection) Act the prosecution needs only to prove that the accused intentionally committed an action that had the potential to cause harm to a child. For an offence under the Crimes Act, the prosecution has to prove in some cases that the accused not only did something that put a child in danger, but also wilfully intended to cause harm to the child. That additional step can be a very difficult, if not impossible, task.
Some may be concerned that as these offences are often committed by the parents or caregivers of a child that it is not in the best interests of the child to gaol the parents. While I understand that concern, the first thing I would say is that frequently and increasingly the perpetrators are not the parents. They can be criminals who put a child at risk of harm to escape detection for another criminal activity, such as, drug trading, car jacking or car theft. Secondly, magistrates and judges are capable of weighing up this issue at the time of sentence.
Finally, I would like to provide the House with some information about penalties that apply to offences of child abuse and neglect in other States. In Queensland the Criminal Code Act 1989 provides for a seven-year maximum gaol term
of imprisonment for failure to provide a child with adequate food, clothing, medical treatment or accommodation and a three-year gaol penalty for parents or other adults with a duty of care for a child who fail to provide for the necessities of life for a child in their care aged under 16. The Western Australian Child Welfare Act states that: Any person who has by wilful misconduct or habitual neglect or by any wrongful or immoral act or omission caused or suffered any child to become, or continue to be a child in need of care and protection or contributed to any child becoming or continuing to be a child in need of care and protection shall be guilty of an offence punishable by a penalty of $10,000 or imprisonment for 12 months or both.
Section 261 of the Victorian Children and Young Persons Act 1989 describes child abuse and neglect in terms very similar to the New South Wales Care and Protection Act. It states that any person who has a duty of care in respect of a child who intentionally takes action that resulted, or appears likely to result, in significant harm as a result of physical injury or sexual abuse or psychological harm that damaged the child's emotional or intellectual development "is guilty of an offence and liable to a penalty of not more than 50 penalty units or to imprisonment of a term of not more than 12 months". The Opposition believes that it is time New South Wales child protection laws were updated and strengthened to ensure that our children are adequately protected from the harm of neglect and abuse. We do not propose to
proceed further with this bill during this session, but it will now be circulated for comment and consultation. I have an open mind as to how this bill may be improved. However, I am confident that we have done a thorough job and that the bill deserves support.
people convicted of serious incidents of child abuse and neglect. It hardly needs to be said that child abuse is an extremely serious matter, and that those who commit crimes against children need to be given a strong message as a deterrent against others doing the same thing, and as a denunciation of their action. Most people would take it for granted that a person who commits a criminal act of negligence that puts a child's life in danger or at serious risk of physical or psychological harm will face a gaol penalty. But, sadly, that is not the case in New South Wales.
Currently the harshest penalty available for serious acts of neglect and abuse in New South Wales is a maximum fine of $22,000. That amount is not much more than the current maximum fine of $11,000 for an act of cruelty to an animal under the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act. Additionally there is a maximum six-month gaol penalty for a serious act of cruelty to an animal but there is no gaol penalty for an act of abuse or neglect against children. Other
Government legislation before the House is aimed at doubling the fine for an act of cruelty against an animal from $11,000 to $22,000. That means that this State will have harsher penalties for acts of cruelty to animals than for similar offences against children. It is ludicrous that the offence of tying up a horse in a paddock and starving it almost to the point of death attracts a heavier penalty than a similar offence against a child, such as abandoning it in a car to dehydrate in the hot sun. In the case of cruelty to the horse the offender faces a possibility of six months in gaol and a
fine of $22,000, while the offender who harms a child is free of any threat of a goal sentence and stands to pay a monetary fine that is no more severe.
It is almost as if the State has gone back to the future. One of the western world's first successful prosecutions for child abuse and neglect took place in New York in 1875. It involved a 10-year-old girl, Ellen McCormack, who was found tied to a bed like an animal, neglected and brutally beaten by her foster parents. The offenders in that matter were prosecuted under laws for cruelty to animals because at the time there was no penalty for the neglect and abuse of children. In August this year, magistrate Alan Railton attempted to impose a 12-month gaol term on a 30-year-old man after it was proved that he had recklessly endangered the life of his four-week-old baby son by abandoning him in a yard. The offender compounded his offence by refusing to assist police in locating the baby so that they could rescue it.
Fortunately the baby was found unharmed. The man was charged and convicted of neglecting the baby under the Children and Young Persons (Care and Protection) Act. The magistrate thought the offence merited a 12-month gaol term and he imposed that sentence. But the sentence was overturned after it was pointed out to the court that the Children and Young Persons (Care and Protection) Act does not provide for a gaol penalty for abuse and neglect.
Sadly there are people in this society who place such a small value on the welfare of children that they will knowingly place them at risk of great harm. Often the offender is a not the child's parent but someone who is prepared to risk harming a child to escape detection for a criminal offence. We all remember the sad case of baby Leo, who died of hypothermia in a car in December 2000 after it was stolen and abandoned by a thief. The car thief put the life of the child at risk, and that resulted in the death of the child. Since then there have been other cases of car thieves taking vehicles with children inside and abandoning them. They commit the offence of car theft, which does carry a gaol penalty, but they also put a child's life in danger. The Opposition believes that this is an additional matter for which the courts should have the option of imposing a further gaol penalty.
I know of another case before the courts in which a 24-year-old woman was charged under the Children and Young Persons (Care and Protection) Act after she failed to tell doctors or police that her three-year-old daughter had
swallowed five ecstasy tablets. The child swallowed the tablets while she was unsupervised in a motel room where her mother had taken a prostitution client for sex. Police allege that she knew all along that her daughter had swallowed a dangerous quantity of drugs and she refused to tell them exactly what had happened to her daughter. A police officer allegedly asked her 20 times to tell him what her daughter had swallowed and she refused to say anything even though her daughter required intubation, eventually lapsed into a coma, and nearly died. A number of times the police officer involved in the matter approached the woman, assuring her that she would not get into trouble for the drugs, and that he just wanted her to give information vital for saving the life of her child. In a similar situation, in the absence of a gaol penalty for the offence of abuse and neglect, the police are not able to say that the consequences of not giving this sort of information will be more severe than the penalty they may face for any other crime that may be uncovered as a
result. Police need to be in a position to say, when it is becoming obvious that a person is not being co-operative, that
there is a risk of a gaol penalty if they do not co-operate. I will not comment further on the matter, but my purpose is simply to illustrate the types of offences that are covered by the law now, for which the maximum penalty is a fine of only $22,000.
The Opposition agrees with former Police Inspector John Heslop, who has a much-respected reputation for spending his career in New South Wales Police fighting child abuse. He commented on the outcome of the Central Coast matter I spoke about earlier by saying that the case was "another sign that society had failed to move with the times". He also said, "If you have a dog, your treatment of that dog can have worse implications than your treatment of a baby," and "if you look at the kind of things the neglect of children could cause, it can be catastrophic". There is reason to be concerned about societal attitudes to child neglect. A recent national public opinion survey showed that adults ranked child abuse as less of a concern than council rates. Child abuse and neglect are described in sections 227 and 228 of
the Children and Young Persons (Care and Protection) Act 1998. The Act provides that a person who "intentionally takes action that has resulted in or appears likely to result in" the physical injury or sexual abuse of a young child or a young person, or any intentional act that causes a child or a young person to be "significantly damaged" or which causes the physical development of a child to be "significantly harmed", is guilty of an offence. A person is also guilty of an offence if they leave a child or young person unsupervised in a motor vehicle.
This bill imposes a penalty of two years gaol for this offence if the matter is prosecuted in a Local Court and judged by a magistrate, and a maximum penalty of five years if the offence is prosecuted as an indictable offence in the Supreme Court before a judge. Amendments to the Criminal Procedure Act 1986 allow prosecuting authorities to elect to proceed summarily, in which case the maximum gaol penalty can be two years, or on indictment, with a penalty of five years. The bill also increases the maximum fines for child abuse and neglect from the current maximum fine of $22,000 to a maximum of $44,000 if the prosecutor elects to proceed on indictment. The maximum penalty of $22,000 remains for a summary offence, as this is the largest amount a magistrate in a Local Court can impose by way of fine. When we first announced this bill the Government claimed that there were already gaol penalties in the Crimes Act for child abuse or neglect. I imagine it was thinking of sections 43 and 44 of the Crimes Act 1900 which provide for a fiveyear
gaol penalty for anyone who "unlawfully abandons or exposes any child under the age of two years" such that the child's life or health is endangered, or for anyone who is "legally liable to provide necessary food, clothing, or lodging"
to "any wife, child, ward, apprentice, or servant or any insane person" but wilfully fails to do so. I have been told by police that they would never be able to use these laws today because their wording is obviously archaic, they are in some cases limited in their application to children under two, and they can only be tried on indictment where the burden of proof for the prosecution is to prove to a jury beyond reasonable doubt that the alleged offender whose actions put the child at risk deliberately intended to harm the child. These laws are too high a benchmark to be of any effective use in protecting children. They need to be urgently reviewed. This bill is an attempt to do that. The indictable offence in this bill could well replace the offences outlined in sections 43 and 44 of the Crimes Act. I have not moved to repeal those
provisions in case I cause unintended consequence. However, if the Government advises that it is safe to do so, I would willingly agree to do that in the bill by way of amendment.
The significant difference between the offences outlined in the Crimes Act and those outlined in the Children and Young Persons (Care and Protection) Act is that the onus placed on the prosecution in proving a case against the
accused is different. Under the Children and Young Persons (Care and Protection) Act the prosecution needs only to prove that the accused intentionally committed an action that had the potential to cause harm to a child. For an offence under the Crimes Act, the prosecution has to prove in some cases that the accused not only did something that put a child in danger, but also wilfully intended to cause harm to the child. That additional step can be a very difficult, if not impossible, task.
Some may be concerned that as these offences are often committed by the parents or caregivers of a child that it is not in the best interests of the child to gaol the parents. While I understand that concern, the first thing I would say is that frequently and increasingly the perpetrators are not the parents. They can be criminals who put a child at risk of harm to escape detection for another criminal activity, such as, drug trading, car jacking or car theft. Secondly, magistrates and judges are capable of weighing up this issue at the time of sentence.
Finally, I would like to provide the House with some information about penalties that apply to offences of child abuse and neglect in other States. In Queensland the Criminal Code Act 1989 provides for a seven-year maximum gaol term
of imprisonment for failure to provide a child with adequate food, clothing, medical treatment or accommodation and a three-year gaol penalty for parents or other adults with a duty of care for a child who fail to provide for the necessities of life for a child in their care aged under 16. The Western Australian Child Welfare Act states that: Any person who has by wilful misconduct or habitual neglect or by any wrongful or immoral act or omission caused or suffered any child to become, or continue to be a child in need of care and protection or contributed to any child becoming or continuing to be a child in need of care and protection shall be guilty of an offence punishable by a penalty of $10,000 or imprisonment for 12 months or both.
Section 261 of the Victorian Children and Young Persons Act 1989 describes child abuse and neglect in terms very similar to the New South Wales Care and Protection Act. It states that any person who has a duty of care in respect of a child who intentionally takes action that resulted, or appears likely to result, in significant harm as a result of physical injury or sexual abuse or psychological harm that damaged the child's emotional or intellectual development "is guilty of an offence and liable to a penalty of not more than 50 penalty units or to imprisonment of a term of not more than 12 months". The Opposition believes that it is time New South Wales child protection laws were updated and strengthened to ensure that our children are adequately protected from the harm of neglect and abuse. We do not propose to
proceed further with this bill during this session, but it will now be circulated for comment and consultation. I have an open mind as to how this bill may be improved. However, I am confident that we have done a thorough job and that the bill deserves support.
The new wording of the section will provide for the punishment of those guilty of an offence without unduly punishing those who, in the circumstances of the case, have a reasonable excuse for their conduct.
It may be that a person is in the middle of nowhere and has to leave a child with another young person in a car with some water while that person leaves to try to find help. In that case it would be justified to leave a child. A judicial officer will determine whether an individual has established a defence of reasonable excuse. Some years ago in Queensland a person stole a car and dumped the baby, who was in the car, on the side of the road. It was only sheer luck that someone pulled off the highway and was going for a bit of a wander through the bush and heard the baby crying: the baby was saved. I will give an example that everyone in the Chamber would be aware of. I will not mention names or the specific incident. Recently in the outer suburbs of Sydney a child was asleep in a car that was stolen. If the man who stole the car abandoned the car knowing that a baby or a young child under the age of seven was in the back of the car, the baby or the young child could die of heat exhaustion, particularly if it is in the summer and the windows are closed.
In such circumstances, under this legislation there will be no reasonable excuse for abandoning a child. If the action causes a child serious injury, a person could be charged under section 43 and would be liable to very strong penalties. Generally speaking, leaving a child in a car on a hot day is something that none of us would contemplate. Unfortunately, we know so many people who say that they just pulled up to quickly get something from the bank but the queue was very long. We all know that the temperature in a car can rise dramatically in a very short time. The impact of radiation through glass in a parked car on a hot day can cause the temperature inside the car to rise by a staggering 75 per cent in approximately five minutes. Small children are more vulnerable than adults because in that five-minute period they can suffer dehydration, heat exhaustion, and organ failure, which can lead to death.
The amendments in the bill will provide judicial officers with a range of sentencing options in such cases. This will mean that penalties will be able to be applied to best fit the individual circumstances of a case and ensure the best possible outcome for children and families.
It may be that a person is in the middle of nowhere and has to leave a child with another young person in a car with some water while that person leaves to try to find help. In that case it would be justified to leave a child. A judicial officer will determine whether an individual has established a defence of reasonable excuse. Some years ago in Queensland a person stole a car and dumped the baby, who was in the car, on the side of the road. It was only sheer luck that someone pulled off the highway and was going for a bit of a wander through the bush and heard the baby crying: the baby was saved. I will give an example that everyone in the Chamber would be aware of. I will not mention names or the specific incident. Recently in the outer suburbs of Sydney a child was asleep in a car that was stolen. If the man who stole the car abandoned the car knowing that a baby or a young child under the age of seven was in the back of the car, the baby or the young child could die of heat exhaustion, particularly if it is in the summer and the windows are closed.
In such circumstances, under this legislation there will be no reasonable excuse for abandoning a child. If the action causes a child serious injury, a person could be charged under section 43 and would be liable to very strong penalties. Generally speaking, leaving a child in a car on a hot day is something that none of us would contemplate. Unfortunately, we know so many people who say that they just pulled up to quickly get something from the bank but the queue was very long. We all know that the temperature in a car can rise dramatically in a very short time. The impact of radiation through glass in a parked car on a hot day can cause the temperature inside the car to rise by a staggering 75 per cent in approximately five minutes. Small children are more vulnerable than adults because in that five-minute period they can suffer dehydration, heat exhaustion, and organ failure, which can lead to death.
The amendments in the bill will provide judicial officers with a range of sentencing options in such cases. This will mean that penalties will be able to be applied to best fit the individual circumstances of a case and ensure the best possible outcome for children and families.
This bill, which deals with the unfortunate realities that we face in society, will insert a new section 43 in the Crimes Act to delete the words "unlawful abandonment and exposure of a child" and insert instead the words "intentionally abandons or exposes a child". It would have been difficult in the past for courts to prove what was lawful and what was unlawful. The bill will insert a new section 43 which will state:
A person who, without reasonable excuse, intentionally abandons or exposes a child ...
A person who, without reasonable excuse, intentionally abandons or exposes a child ...
Its interesting reading the responses of the 3 of you who think that as long as you can prosecute a person under some law retrospectively ( so manslaughter after the fact, if a child dies for example), that laws shouldnt exist. No one has yet to be able to tell me whats so different about drink driving laws that the same scenario shouldnt exist. Or a myriad of other laws which could simply be abolished & people only prosecuted retrospectively if something bad happened. Surely using your logic, if a parent that is stupid enough to leave a child in a car wouldnt care about a law anyway, a person who is stupid enough to drink drive wouldnt care about a law either, so why do we need a law that prohibits DD? If we catch them DUI we could just charge them with dangerous driving, or with some other offence using your logic, so we dont need DD laws.
Anyway, JTLs assertions that there is a specific law looks like they are wrong anyway (unless anyone can show otherwise, all the googling I did only brought up child protection acts being updates in various states, no "new individual law"), so you can continue with your weekend activities safe in the knowledge that your civil liberties to do whatever you please without regard are still in place.
As an aside, is it just co-incidence that the 3 people that think that its a stupid law are all people without kids, whilst those who've said its a good thing to have rules about it do have kids (or kids on the way)?
(PS. sorry Simone, this post is not specifically aimed at you, just happens that you were the easiest person to quote).
#131
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Obscure Rules in Oz
Originally Posted by Pollyana
However many laws there are though, in almost every case the type of person who would abandon their child in the car in the heat (and I'm not talking about the trolley returning minutes, I'm talking long enough to harm the child) is probably the sort of parent who won't CARE if there is a law against it, and will do it anyway.
#132
Re: Obscure Rules in Oz
Just a quick one about the U.K. it's still law as per common law that it is alright to shoot a Welsh man in Nottingham with a cross bow. How that applies i will never know.
Nothing against the Welsh by the way before I get the replies.
Nothing against the Welsh by the way before I get the replies.
#133
Re: Obscure Rules in Oz
Originally Posted by MrsDagboy
There isnt a separate law for it at least in NSW, seems that its part of the Children and Young Persons (Care and Protection) Act which looks like it was amended to allow for jail sentences & greater fines for parents who endanger their children or cause them distress. And the Crimes Act has been reworded to make it easier to prove & prosecute. My guess is that other states have done a similar thing to bring them all in line.
And this
And this
Looks like it was changed because it was difficult to prosecute previously because of the way it was worded. So they have reworded the crimes Act section & added extra to the Child Protection Act to allow for jail sentence.
Its interesting reading the responses of the 3 of you who think that as long as you can prosecute a person under some law retrospectively ( so manslaughter after the fact, if a child dies for example), that laws shouldnt exist. No one has yet to be able to tell me whats so different about drink driving laws that the same scenario shouldnt exist. Or a myriad of other laws which could simply be abolished & people only prosecuted retrospectively if something bad happened. Surely using your logic, if a parent that is stupid enough to leave a child in a car wouldnt care about a law anyway, a person who is stupid enough to drink drive wouldnt care about a law either, so why do we need a law that prohibits DD? If we catch them DUI we could just charge them with dangerous driving, or with some other offence using your logic, so we dont need DD laws.
Anyway, JTLs assertions that there is a specific law looks like they are wrong anyway (unless anyone can show otherwise, all the googling I did only brought up child protection acts being updates in various states, no "new individual law"), so you can continue with your weekend activities safe in the knowledge that your civil liberties to do whatever you please without regard are still in place.
As an aside, is it just co-incidence that the 3 people that think that its a stupid law are all people without kids, whilst those who've said its a good thing to have rules about it do have kids (or kids on the way)?
(PS. sorry Simone, this post is not specifically aimed at you, just happens that you were the easiest person to quote).
And this
And this
Looks like it was changed because it was difficult to prosecute previously because of the way it was worded. So they have reworded the crimes Act section & added extra to the Child Protection Act to allow for jail sentence.
Its interesting reading the responses of the 3 of you who think that as long as you can prosecute a person under some law retrospectively ( so manslaughter after the fact, if a child dies for example), that laws shouldnt exist. No one has yet to be able to tell me whats so different about drink driving laws that the same scenario shouldnt exist. Or a myriad of other laws which could simply be abolished & people only prosecuted retrospectively if something bad happened. Surely using your logic, if a parent that is stupid enough to leave a child in a car wouldnt care about a law anyway, a person who is stupid enough to drink drive wouldnt care about a law either, so why do we need a law that prohibits DD? If we catch them DUI we could just charge them with dangerous driving, or with some other offence using your logic, so we dont need DD laws.
Anyway, JTLs assertions that there is a specific law looks like they are wrong anyway (unless anyone can show otherwise, all the googling I did only brought up child protection acts being updates in various states, no "new individual law"), so you can continue with your weekend activities safe in the knowledge that your civil liberties to do whatever you please without regard are still in place.
As an aside, is it just co-incidence that the 3 people that think that its a stupid law are all people without kids, whilst those who've said its a good thing to have rules about it do have kids (or kids on the way)?
(PS. sorry Simone, this post is not specifically aimed at you, just happens that you were the easiest person to quote).
So is your argument now that the laws don't exist, or do exist and its good that they exist, or that they don't exist, but should exist, I'm lost
JTL
#134
Re: Obscure Rules in Oz
Originally Posted by NJJ
Some more "quirky" vehicle related laws you could get fined for:
Being more than 3 metres away from your vehicle and leaving passengers under the age of sixteen unattended
Being more than 3 metres away from your vehicle and leaving passengers under the age of sixteen unattended
I hope you can produce the source for that wild statement!
JTL
#135
Rocket Scientist
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Dreamland AKA Brisbane which is a different country to the UK
Posts: 6,911
Re: Obscure Rules in Oz
Originally Posted by JackTheLad
Thats alot of thrashing around Mrs D
So is your argument now that the laws don't exist, or do exist and its good that they exist, or that they don't exist, but should exist, I'm lost
JTL
So is your argument now that the laws don't exist, or do exist and its good that they exist, or that they don't exist, but should exist, I'm lost
JTL
I thought my opinion was clear? I don't care if there is a specific law or if its part of existing law - I think its a good thing.
So are you complaining that the law is stupid or that any reasonable person should know better than to leave a child in a car anyway? My questions above still stand - shouldnt any reasonable person also know that its dangerous to drink & drive, so why do we need a law?
As someone else pointed out earlier, the whole scenario looks very similar to the one in the UK whereby you can't leave a child under a certain age alone at home. So does that make the UK a nanny state too, since it would be obvious to any reasonable person that you shouldnt leave a child alone at home? And stupid people wouldnt take notice of the law anyway?