DaisyNZ

We are with ASB and have found them great. But praps we should look at wizard too if it will be better. did you switch from ASB? we left BNZ for ASB, BNZ and ANZ had terrible ratings in the consumer mag. I think National and AMP rated better. Is that right?

Also Hamiltonnz, I agree totally with what you said about the government and it's spending. 100%. It's almost racism in reverse (am I allowed to say that on here??!!!). But I spose what someone said is right, that at least NZ is doing something and not ignoring the problem. It is certainly true though that pakeha Nz'ers get a harder time than incoming Europeans. I was accepted in our maori community more than some of the nz'ers simply because of my ignorance, I had no preconcieved ideas (then!!!) about the whole maori/pakeha thing. Anyway, even tho I agree with alot of why you are leaving, I try to just enjoy it here without thinking about it too much. is that a cop out? I've said before, it's not my battle, I just get on with my life. But then I've never really felt like becoming a NZ'er, I'm an English girl who has permanent residency. I don't really see how I can be a NZ'er just coz of some paperwork, I'm not, period. But that's just my viewpoint.

sofistek

Daisy,

You're an English girl by accident of birth and arbitrary borders. You've now chosen to live within another set of borders. It's up to you whether you go for citizenship or not but I don't think you can really call yourself an English girl anymore. An English born girl perhaps, but that's all. You've chosen a different society now.

hamiltonnz

I kept my account at the national bamk but switched my mortgage to Wizard. I think ASB is probably the best bank if there is such a thing!
I have no problems with settling the Maori grievences but how many billions do they want? Then they want to claim the lakes,rivers, beaches, seabed, gas fields, air waves, want their own justice system,want guaranteed seats in parliament, on councils, hold up big and small developments all over the place because they have to be "consulted with ", charge exobitant "fees" when involved in resource consents, cost the country millions in Lawyers fees for their claims which they get public money for, get preferential treatment for their kids in the education system, get grants thet us pakehas cant get, get help with starting their businesses that pakehas cant get - all this on the basis of a waffly 5 paragraph document with 3 sentences per paragraph - and then they still claim theyre being discriminated against, minimalised, a victim of the pakeha colonialist system, opressed culturally - not only that, its the pakehas fault that 50% of the prison population is maori when theyre only 15% of the NZ population. I dont want to sound bitter but most Kiwis have had enough of it but cant do a thing about it - except at the polling booth and the two main parties have both driven the whole thing to where we are now. This whole Maori grievance process is costing ordinary Kiwis who work hard to make ends meet an absolute fortune in tax money - money that is not available for the education system, health system etc. Not only that its causing division between the races. What would Ozzies do if the aboriginal community claimed all of the Gold Coast and sunshine coast was theirs because they were there first then moved in and occupied the best beach and intimidated anyone who came near? Thats what the maoris activists did at Motua Gardens in the middle of Wanganui. Anyway - cant remember why I posted this now. See ya later. Graham

DaisyNZ

Hamiltonnz

I agree totally. I worked for DOC at Waikaremoana during the maori occupation there, it was our boss that had to spend hours and hours defending himself. I sat next to half naked tribal blokes (OMG!!! all they had one was a flag around their privates) while they faxed the beehive about it all. And I was supposed to just carry on working. I saw what a farce it all was, some of our colleagues camped with them at night, and worked in our office with us during the day. It was also us that had the McCahon painting stolen. Do you remember. So I have lots of reasons to agree with everything you say. Like I said tho, bit of a cop out, but I try not to think about it too much. I don't feel as kiwi as lots of other immigrants.

DaisyNZ

Sorry, have to disagree. I believe in that birth thing. My boys are kiwi's with a British Passport as far as I'm concerned. They were born here. I'm a Brit who resides in NZ. But this is just my opinion. I think the difference with me to alot of others is that even though I live here and enjoy it, I never strived to emigrate. I married my man in England and he happened to be a kiwi on holiday. We came out here for a visit and are still here. I will be happy to go and live back home one day if the time comes, but am happy here too. But I'm definitely an English girl in NZ. Sorry.

hamiltonnz

Hi daisy, do you remember when ken mair the maori activist cut down the only tree on one tree hill in Auckland - been a local landmark for decades - and another time when some activist smashed the americas cup with a sledge hammer when it was on display. Im a bit like you though and I dont let it bother my day to day living. NZ is still a great place to live especially in sunny napier where you are. I should have moved out of Hamilton to a better spot a long time ago but Catherine didnt want to move away from her family who live in Hamilton. Graham

DaisyNZ

how could we forget!! very sad.

sofistek

As the subject was raised, this is something that confuses me. Are the Maori a separate nation, a private company, or what? I'm sure that the majority of them are happy to be considered New Zealanders but there seems to be a vocal minority that consider themselves a separate entity. What does it actually mean for the Maori to "own" the foreshore? Would each current Kiwi of Maori descent be given a certificate of ownership of part of the foreshore?

Will those of Dutch descent be next to claim "their own" bit of New Zealand? Then the ex-Brits, then the Chinese, and so on.

What I'm saying is: do most Maori not wanted to be considered as simply New Zealanders? If not, why not?

Confused Tony

sofistek

Fair enough, Daisy, but it always seems odd to me that accidents of birth can endear such passions in people. And why English but not British? Why do you not simply consider yourself a Mancunian (for example, I don't know where you were born)? Borders are fairly arbitrary and, who knows, the place you were born, X years ago, may be in a different country Y years from now (or may be under water!). What nationality would you consider yourself to be then, and where would you consider your home to be?

jandjuk

hamiltonz - I agree mostly with what you say, but I don't see you offering any solutions...

I fear that the alternative would breed a culture of terrorism and war. I'd rather have a tree chopped down, gardens occupied, and a trophy smashed than bombs and guns, which could easily happen. It is a very very difficult situation. It is commonplace in Europe - could easily be in NZ also.

If Pakeha stop giving Maori so much, what will happen??

There does have to be a limit, but HOW and WHEN are the questions??

Sofistek, I'm not really qualified to answer your question in full, but basically Maori are represented by a number of different tribes (with which the Treaty of Waitangi was signed) - the tribes now lay claim to various lands and customary rights (eg fishing, foreshore etc), which the government have granted in many cases (eg the Tainui tribe now own large portions of prime commercial land in Hamilton (previosuly govt owned) - for which they now collect a nice rent).

I really think the vast majority of Maori really don't care that much and are happy to live with all NZers and put the past in the past, but as usual there are a minority of radicals and 'fat-cats' who see an opportunity for more money & power.

I'm not sure anybody really knows what it would mean for Maori to own the foreshore - which is part of the problem. I doubt they would be give any kind of ownership certificates (though maybe the tribes would be), but it is really very complex and the media really blurs the issue between ownership and 'customary rights' and that's about where my understanding ends!

I don't think it will happen - at least not in the way that everybody fears (ie that maori will control and charge for access to the coastline). The coast is sacred to all Kiwis, and giving Maori full ownership (which I'm not even sure is what they're asking for) would be the final straw for many Pakeha.

Anyone in NZ update us further on what is happening with this??

hamiltonnz

hamiltonnz

Yes its not simple at all. I agree that the government wont give ownership of the foreshore to Maori- theyve said they wont - there would be trouble if they did. but there was a poll taken of maori during deliberations about this and 50% of maori supported the claim for the foreshore and seabed. the issues are pushed by a vocal few and a good number of the rest support it in principal. Why? maybe because they genuinely feel their ancestors were hard done by or maybe they see $ at the end of it. Trouble is there was atrocities done by both sides in the past and different historians put differnt spins on the past so it becomes difficult to sort out. Because the labour govt get most of the maori vote they are under pressure to give in, at least partially. so now Maori are having meetings with the Govt to further discuss the issue. That land in hamilton they claimed had waikato university on it and the university now pay a million a year in rent for the land under their buildings. I dont think there will be a violent resolution to the problem in the end. A change of govt would help - Perhaps it will be resolved by payment of "compensation" to Maori. This seems to be the bottom line on the gravy train of claims. There are a good number of Maori who are sick of all this as well and just want to get on with being Kiwis but its all too far down the track now - cant go back. Maori are just brown Kiwis with no more or less rights but there are Maori who are pushing for their own sovereignty in NZ ie a nation within a nation, own laws etc but this wont happen. I have maori friends and we dont have any animosity toward each other, but as I have said the general resentment of pakehas is growing the longer this treaty claim thing continues.

jandjuk

yes, I certainly hope you're right about the gravy train coming to an end.... peacefully - an being an eternal kiwi optimist I think it will.

I find it quite interesting to compare with the issues in Scot;and and Wales. They now have their own parliaments and in the case of Scotland their own education system, maybe their own judiciary??

Scotland are in effect an separate country, and much like countries in the EU, are becoming separate 'states' under a larger goverment.

Not so simple in NZ as there are no clearly defined borders, but it is interesting. If the Scots can govern themselves as part of a larger UK, it makes me wonder if in actual fact the Maori could do something similar in NZ. ( I always thought this was crazy before)

When I see the way the Welsh language has been resurrected in Wales, I can also see how the Maori language could be further supported in NZ. NZ is a still a long way from having every supermarket aisle and road sign labeled in Maori.

A lot of pakeha NZers (myself included) often wish the 'problem' would all just go away, but when I compare it other issues of Nationalism in Europe, I feel NZ is only at the beginning of the process.

sofistek

That sort of thing would definitely turn me off New Zealand. I can understand the efficacy of making decisions, that affect limited numbers of people, closer to those affected but not to the point of becoming separate nations (especially in the Eu, where nations seem to be being forced together anyway). Also, I've never understood the passion to retain dying languages, such as the Welsh language. It may be an interesting hobby for some, but it's a nonesense to weave it into the law, in some way. The ideal is for the whole world's population to fluently speak the same language, whatever that might be.

I hope NZ can resist the temptation for political correctness and look to the future.

jandjuk

what a boring world that would be!!

Are you telling me that if your native language (English I presume) was dying out you wouldn't want to take steps to retain it?