new 457 law
 

Any initial thoughts on the new 457 law passing today by one vote?

One general observation (already spoken to my banks legal firm on ideas) - 457's have 90 days now to find new work, BUT jobs must be advertised for 4 months before we can be considered. General views in my bank is existing 457 are OK provided we are not let go, but this will reduce foreign hires due to the obvious extra effort required. I've asked if they suggest applying to the PR track prior to the 2 year window, and the two year window is still advised unless you make 180K plus in which case I was told today to go for PR. Quite interesting developments - I'd imagine this will limit future 457 options mainly to those above 180K or in that range, this reminds me as an American of what happened a few years ago in the UK, where if you were on 150K GBP you were exempt from these rules while otherwise getting a tier 2 visa was quite difficult and all about timing based on quotas.

I assume this will clear the Senate but hard to say at this point.....

Re: new 457 law
 

Good news. Business should have too seek Australian based workers prior to sourcing overseas.
The 457 should be put back to its original concept. That being a short term solution for a business to source a professional not available in Australia.
It should not be used as a cheap way to immigrate nor to get around training locals.
I guess the supermarkets won't be too happy either.

Re: new 457 law
 

I read an article this week about how IBM were laying off in Australia but looking to increase their numbers of 457s. That's wrong and if this bill stops this practice then full marks

Re: new 457 law
 

If the intent is to close off lower income immigration I understand it completely. At my bank for example, 5 of us can in on 457's a number of months after they (claimed) that they couldn't get local resources. Keep in mind these were MBA, JD, and or PHD hires but regardless even when I came over I was a bit surprised local talent wasn't available. I think well of myself, but not that well :) I do wonder if some of the intent / use of 457 at the higher income levels was the bring in international perspective / views. My bank for example was and is big on Asia expansion - those of us that they pulled in from New York, London, and Hong Kong had focused on that region and I'd guess even with the 4 month rule it may not impact 457's at the higher end of the pay scale. The move to 90 days is a welcome change, although if you are here and are let go with the new 4 month rule, 90 days to find something seems a bit difficult. Granted, I understand none of us can vote and I can't blame the government at all for pushing this one through by 1 vote.

Re: new 457 law
 

Yes that is completely wrong. The social cost apart from anything....

BB

Re: new 457 law
 

Tech sector abuses 457s massively. There is no shortage of workers. It will increase off shoring of muppet jobs and keep the high payers.

Re: new 457 law
 

That is an interesting observation, I've certainly noticed massive offshoring in IT since I've been here in Melbourne. What seems to be lost in the attacks on 457's (I get it - politics) is the offshoring going on in the entire sector. I thought it was aggressive when I lived in the USA and UK but we at least kept core groups onshore. Some banks here are offshoring so much to India and lately Manila that I wonder if Australia will have a tech sector left in a few more years - I am speaking here about jobs that would have been ideal for 22 - 30 year old Australians just out of Uni - these are going offshore at 1/3 to 1/4 the price fully loaded - I'd strongly debate the quality of the offshore resources but banks here seem quite short term focused and could care less about long term impacts of this. Australians truly worried about protecting jobs should look closer and offshoring and making this sort of thing a bit more difficult vs getting worked up about an Indian coming here make 70K in a job an Australian would do for 80K - which is clearly the major concern in the press, ironically all this will do is cause further offshoring of these sorts of jobs.

Re: new 457 law
 

Exactly. Why both onshoring an indian if you can offshore the job?

At least under 457 they are paying taxes in Australia, soon there won't even be that. The resources get shipped out, and the products get shipped in, and exactly where is the functioning economy going to be to afford to purchase those imports? Gina can only buy so much.

My guess is if Abbott gets in we will be looking at special economic zones, low taxation and guest workers - coupled with cuts in government services and austerity 'necessary to return the accounts to surplus'. Of course, as the evidence shows, the more you cut the less tax you get, so the more you 'have to tax' for that surplus.

457 attacks are massively missing the point of engineering a working economy - like jamming a spanner in the works in the hope the machine won't run away - and ignoring the way the machine actually works. Someone needs to crack open the instruction manual.

Re: new 457 law
 

I am planning a massive offshoring




To Norfolk Island ;)


Staffing all by 457 unless local applicants apply.

Re: new 457 law
 

Not all IT jobs can be offshored.

Re: new 457 law
 

So if you earn over $180k does this make it easier to get PR? I'm on a 457 and started PR application, but couldn't continue it as wife was pregnant so couldn't have full medical (x-ray). Now we've had the baby I'm waiting for birth certificate so I can get him a UK passport then get him on our 457, and then I can resume the application process.

Re: new 457 law
 

No, you still have to meet all the usual requirements for PR.

Re: new 457 law
 

What about company transferees?

I understand wanting to advertise new positions in Australia first for a period of time but where an international company wants to transfer in staff from other countries to help train the local staff (for example said company has acquired an Australian company and wants to put managers and executives in from other places to help with the integration and training) are the rules still going to insist on 4 months advertising? If the purpose of the 457 visa holder coming in is because ey bring company only expertise then no-one locally is going to have that experience.

Re: new 457 law
 

In my industry (oil & gas pipelines) and pretty much all across engineering there is a huge experience shortage between the baby boomers (me) and the Gen Y graduates, caused largely by the recessions of the 1980's which sent many engineering graduates out of engineering and into other careers. So if we need to have an engineer who has more than 5-8 years experience we are virtually forced to look offshore - either that or pay an Australian a salary that guarantees we will not make a profit on his work.

The fact that we have 5-6% unemployment here doesn't mean that the skills required for a job can be sourced locally. I certainly don't believe in using 457's for unskilled labour.

Re: new 457 law
 

I agree but when a company like IBM says that they are going to sack a load of their workers and bring in 457s to replace them - that's wrong

Every country, from the richest to the poorest, benefits from a degree of labour movement but its got to be regulated

Re: new 457 law
 

I thought that one of the requirements of employing someone on a 457 was that the pay rate had to be comparable with local market rates - if this is true what is the advantage in sacking locals and replacing them with 457's?

Re: new 457 law
 

You cannot stop off shoring.

Business here has become lazy and stingy with local training and development and used the 457 scheme to hide their failings. Now the mining boom is dropping off I would expect that sector will use locally laid off workers rather than imports.

Re: new 457 law
 

It's rorted beyond belief.

Say you need someone with x specialisations for a job. You can find it locally but it will cost well in excess of 100k a year to hire someone.

So you import someone on a 457 who will work for 80K - bingo, you've just saved 30-50% of your costs so you can undercut your competitors.

Do you advertise the job first ? Do you buggery

Re: new 457 law
 

Keep in mind my bank has a law firm that advises us, but the view they have me was, in general, 180K makes certain things easier including for a 457. This is for 457's (older details, you can google to see how this is impacted with the new law, I frankly just speak to the law firm and take their advice) The 180K has to do with market rate and 'fair pay' sorts of issues, I understand now it was going to go to 250K but there were last minute amendments that perhaps left it the same. Much like in the UK (GBP 150K) where 150K makes it easier to get a tier 2 visa - from a PR standpoint I was told higher paid types would have it easier but I have not bothered to follow up and frankly can't comment further. This appears to be a good source for more info to start.

http://www.workingin-australia.com/v...7#.Uc1OTpV-NUQ

Re: new 457 law
 

For jobs in Melbourne you advertise in Darwin

just saying:sneaky:

Re: new 457 law
 

How the rort works is when companies decide to outsource their IT workers to somewhere like India or Philippines, they bring in foreign workers on the 457 visas for what they call 'knowledge transfer'. Local staff (who are the ones being laid off) then are tasked with documenting processes for the offshoring, and being shadowed by the 457 staff. When the transfer of knowledge is completed the regular staff are laid off and the 457 returns to his homeland to continue the job role for less cost. There is a lot of this going on even in the public sector where I read that Brisbane council has outsourced a lot of their IT staff in this exact manner: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/it-p...226-2f3hy.html

I have also been advised by someone who had a 457 person shadowing him, that in order to keep with the legal pay requirements they are provided with hotel accommodation, meal vouchers etc. to make the total salary package up to equivalent of the going rate pay.

The post by hoofie2002 also is pretty accurate, except that the last line where the job is advertised, but well below market rate. Business then applies for a 457 visa saying that they have been unable to find any suitable locals (who due to cost of living etc want the market rate).

Govt Crackdown on 457 Visa Holders and Outsourcing of Jobs Overseas
 

Im interested in some feedback on this and whether im missing something fundamental. I was out for my Saturday ride today and was thinking both about outsourcing of jobs overseas and bringing in workers on a 457 visa. And how the government crack down on the 457 visa holders is designed to save Australian jobs.

It seems to me that if the government was actually serious on this they would prevent companies off-shoring jobs to India, Philippines etc. This would save Australian jobs and would increase the tax base, as we dont see any tax revenue from employees or contractors overseas.

But instead of doing this, they decide to crack down on companies bringing employees to Australia (at great expense to the company) - who come here because of their special skills, pay their own way (ie, health, schooling etc), all the while paying full tax on those earnings.

Am I missing a fundamental here - If the government was really serious about this would they not somehow legislate to prevent off-shoring of labour?

Perhaps that is just too hard and the 457 visa thing is just easier and looked better to the public?

Re: Govt Crackdown on 457 Visa Holders and Outsourcing of Jobs Overseas
 

Hi Craig - merged your post with existing discussion of 457 changes :)

Re: new 457 law
 

Not sure I agree with that. I was brought over on 457 in 2008, when LAFHA was around, and was earning the same base pay and bonuses as my peers and in some cases more than them. I think it boils down to the calibre of your company and the skills you have.

Re: new 457 law
 

Yep, i am the same as Paddyo. Was actually on a slightly higher salary than my peers.

Had a second 457 with a different company and it was a set pay scale for the role regardless of if you were an Oz or a 457

Re: new 457 law
 

Agreed - this is the case at my bank as well. 457's brought in from New York or London are on 10%-40% more then local's on average. However, it is pretty clear that some 457's on the IT side of things at the bank from India are brought in on low(er) rates - not dramatically less but they are clearly willing to take a low base to get a foot in the door here in Australia. I know of one case where a guy is making 20K less then others, but still on a decent rate, and is quite happy to be here, as is his wife and 5 kids.

Re: new 457 law
 

Interesting conversation thread, so if 457 visa's are temporary and these have been around for a while, what has been done to fill this gap in the last 10 years.

If there was a shortage years ago, why arent people skilled up, where are the apprenticeships, whats happened to the graduates who have graduated the last few years, PR visa's that have been given out.

Granted jobs have increased with the so called boom, but with 5% unemployment there must be a a certain factor here who can fill places.

With the clamp down on 457's, slowing down in the job market, there will be a few 457's going back to their home I guess.

The 457 seems to be a gamble.

Re: new 457 law
 

Just quoting this as it best explains how we got here and the need I feel to justify that! But the company still had to prove they had tried to source expertise locally.

Re: Govt Crackdown on 457 Visa Holders and Outsourcing of Jobs Overseas
 

Well yes obviously it is easier to make 457s harder to get. How can the government stop anyone from purchasing good or services from overseas? It is a free country last I heard. On the other hand, it is up to the government how many visas they give out and under what circumstances. I don't see anything wrong with the thinking, well apart from I think they were more interested in votes for a popular policy than anything else.

BTW - a significant number of 457 holders do not pay their own way in terms of health and schooling. Schooling is free everywhere outside ACT and NSW and a significant number of 457 holders cancel their health insurance the moment they land.

Re: new 457 law
 

From my experience we had to jump through hoops to get our 457 when we came over, my wife was the main application she is a chemo nurse , all the documentation , ielts test etc , medicals it cost a small fortune, how hard to the government need to make it.we are now on PR we paid out more money again, we have paid our taxes from day one and not entitled to any benefits so I think we have contributed to Austrlia from day one as do many on 457 visas

Re: new 457 law
 

Maybe come on a boat from Indonesia, could be a cheaper option.

Re: Govt Crackdown on 457 Visa Holders and Outsourcing of Jobs Overseas
 

Excellent! Thanks, i can see this issue has been well canvassed!

Re: new 457 law
 

Didn't your wife's employer pay the costs involved in getting her 457 visa?
And surely providing documentation that you're qualified to the level you say you are is reasonable? Would you prefer that Australia just takes the word of anyone who decides they want to migrate?

And it's ludicrous to say you get no benefits from paying taxes. You get clean water, a police service, a fire service, hospitals, health systems, schools, libraries, roads and rail systems - all those zillions of things that taxes pay for.

What you don't get is cash handouts from the government. I get no cash handouts from the government and I've been a citizen for 25 years.

Didn't you know what the rules were regarding cash handouts for temp visa holders before you came? ;)

Re: Govt Crackdown on 457 Visa Holders and Outsourcing of Jobs Overseas
 

yeah - i dont know. I think if the govt was serious about this as opposed to just trying to "look good", they would look at limiting the outsourcing of jobs overseas. I am not advocating that they should - i am merely suggesting that if that is their policy objective, and they were serious about protecting Australia's workforce - that would seem like a better way of going about this.

it obviously is a "free country" subject to the laws of the land, and legislating in this area to prevent offshoring of labour would not be a difficult exercise. I believe there are a few Heads of Power this could fall under and the test could be the same they have introduced for 457 visa holders in that have they tried to source employment locally.

I guess i dont have the full facts, because i dont know how many jobs are outsourced overseas. I just know that it seems like everytime i call a bank or telco, im not speaking to someone in Australia. If we were going to clamp down on anything here I would prefer to see that clamped down on before anything else.

Anyway, i can see this issue has been well canvassed in this thread before i had my 2 cents worth.

Re: Govt Crackdown on 457 Visa Holders and Outsourcing of Jobs Overseas
 

I've been in Melbourne on a 457 since March 2013 and it is interesting to see how 457's touch a nerve. When you look deeper though, there really are three themes regarding overseas labour and the impact:

1) 457's in positions that most would not view as 'highly skilled' but which are (or were) on a shortage list. I know a plumber here from Switzerland who has noted he is working at a much lower rate vs his Aussie coworkers - this is partly magnified by the fact that his previous sponsor went bankrupt and he had to get picked up in 28 days. The change to 90 days to find new work will help.

2) 457s in positions that are 'highly skilled' - Phd's in engineering for example, or those with 20-30 years of international work with top degrees from around the world. I work with some of these types, and as noted they are often on 20%-50% more vs locals. I'm not sure how the 4 month advertising rule is going to address this issue - most for profit firms don't bring in ex-pats at large premiums for no reason. I'd also argue in some cases - such as Asia region expansion, there really is not local talent available - if you are pushing business to new regions where possible it does make sense to bring people in with deep experience in these regions. Companies must agree otherwise they wouldn't also pay large premiums to do just that.

3) Outsourcing. This is a huge issue in the banking sector here - IT is not my main focus, but the amount of outsourcing I've seen to India and other parts of Asia since last March is massive. I've been a part of similar initiatives in the UK (moving a finance backoffice function to Mumbai) and the USA - and my experience in Australia so far is firms are the most aggressive here, and not very strategic. I've seen 50%-90% of IT teams wiped out in a few months - very little thought is going in to longer term impacts, keeping a 'core' Australia team base, plans to 'bring back jobs' etc, it is purely a 'guy X in Mumbai will work for 1/3 as much' and that is that. Yet the press is worked up by 457's.

The unfortunate aspect of the outsourcing going on to these levels, and so quickly, is that companies are not strategically positioned to get their service levels up, more and more 'help' is expected from Australians (I know guys that do remain in Australia on IT teams working crazy hours now, bailing out the outsourced teams which continue to screw up systems and customers service).
If you just play the numbers game, especially in areas like IT, a focus on outsourcing would be better policy if these really is about 'local jobs'.

Re: Govt Crackdown on 457 Visa Holders and Outsourcing of Jobs Overseas
 

I would disagree that legislating to prevent individuals or companies from sourcing products and services from overseas would be easy. I think it would be hard. And therefore it is entirely sensible that the government would look to see what they can control if they want to take action. Although as I say, I suspect the election was more the motive than anything else.

Re: Govt Crackdown on 457 Visa Holders and Outsourcing of Jobs Overseas
 

Some tradesmen can be 'highly skilled'. Don't necessarily need an advanced degree to be 'highly skilled'

People with a Phd are not always 'highly skilled' - sometimes quite the opposite

Outsourcing is generally a mess wherever it is done - not only from Australia

Re: Govt Crackdown on 457 Visa Holders and Outsourcing of Jobs Overseas
 

Part of the issue here is perception. The plumber I know studied I believe two years in Switzerland and no doubt is 'skilled'. That said, when he has another Aussie plumber working next to him, he doesn't see a distinction in skill (even if it exists). This guy has had real issues with his Aussie coworkers in terms of respect, in addition to issues with the union. On the other hand, a local Aussie with an undergraduate degree and a few years in a regional bank could look at an expat on a higher package with several advanced degrees and 20 years on international experience as 'highly skilled'. On average, I don't see big issues in my bank at least with 457's and our pay packages in cases where the individual has an impressive CV. Sure, you get the usual comments that 'education and international experience doesn't matter' but these are made by people lacking in one or both of these areas. Human nature.

Outsourcing is a mess certainly, but so far (in my experience, I could be totally wrong) the way it is handled strategically here is poor compared to the USA and, especially, the UK (I can think of cases in the UK where we gave people 3+ year payouts when their job was being moved, for example)

Re: new 457 law
 

We were fully aware of the situation, not complaining, we funded part of the 457 visa and paid a large part of the PR visa.This is how it should be I think I may have not made my point to clear just saying that I don't think the system is being abused to the point that is being branded about in the media , I may be wrong though.
Although Miss Gillards assistent was working on a 457 has he gone back to uk yet ?

Re: new 457 law
 

There were apparently 29,000 457 visas granted for WA in the last year of records - 2011-12.

I personally, do not believe there was a need to bring in that many people