If Oz is so great, why are so many leaving?
Feb 3rd 2004, 9:20 am
#46
Lost in BE Cyberspace
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Location: Scotland
Posts: 7,949
Originally posted by MikeStanton
If only this were true! Professional migrants are one of the largest groups of immigrants to arrive here AND to leave permamently.
The reasons why these people don't stay are likely to include:
i) the small market - and hence number of opportunities are small. The Oz market represents ~1.6% of global output - ie f*** all!
ii) For most professions, Oz is not seen as a place to further one's career (this is made worse by the Oz "cultural cringe")
iii) it's not entrepreneur-friendly (compared with HK). Partly this is due to the size of the market and partly because of the taxes etc. Eg when was the last time you bought an item of clothing that was made by an Aussie company? China is emerging as a key manufacturer.
iv) the relative lack of comparative advantages compared with other industrialised nations.
If only this were true! Professional migrants are one of the largest groups of immigrants to arrive here AND to leave permamently.
The reasons why these people don't stay are likely to include:
i) the small market - and hence number of opportunities are small. The Oz market represents ~1.6% of global output - ie f*** all!
ii) For most professions, Oz is not seen as a place to further one's career (this is made worse by the Oz "cultural cringe")
iii) it's not entrepreneur-friendly (compared with HK). Partly this is due to the size of the market and partly because of the taxes etc. Eg when was the last time you bought an item of clothing that was made by an Aussie company? China is emerging as a key manufacturer.
iv) the relative lack of comparative advantages compared with other industrialised nations.
(ii) - Literally millions further their careers in Australia and some choose to further it overseas. How many Brits further their careers overseas? What's the point? Global economy and all that as someone else pointed out.
(iii) - go to HK then, no-one's stopping you. There will always be a place for genuinely entrepreneurial people in Australia and any market economy. Not everyone succeeds at it (and some if they don't blame others!)
(iv) - I don't know what you mean by this. Australia has moved beyond industrialised, like the UK and is now dominated by the tertiary sector which typically provides 2/3 or more of all jobs. OECD statistics will show you that Australia has faster growth rates and comparable if not higher GDP per capita than the UK. There must be some comparative advantages at work.
OzTennis
Feb 3rd 2004, 9:28 am
#47
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally posted by Stormz
who gives a shit
I don`t have a cat btw. Oh god, this thread is gonna be hijacked just like half the others....
who gives a shit
I don`t have a cat btw. Oh god, this thread is gonna be hijacked just like half the others....
Feb 3rd 2004, 9:39 am
#48
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Joined: Oct 2003
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Posts: 1,017
Originally posted by WBB
is it possible to hijack your won thread?
is it possible to hijack your won thread?
Feb 3rd 2004, 9:43 am
#49
Superfreak!!
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: Thornlie, Perth, W.A.
Posts: 1,177
Maybe we need to get some armed guards on board these flights
Feb 3rd 2004, 9:49 am
#50
Dugongidae Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Location: Wimbledon, England
Posts: 441
I have to agree with the point Oz is not a great place to go if you are a professional. It is a small market. But the biggest worry is the way business is conducted there i.e. in an extraordinary way mostly at odds with the rest of the world. It's a good training ground to observe all thats worst in the world of management aka david brent style but my advice is do not spend more than a few years there or you start to believe it's right.
Given postings like this are then subjected to demands to support the argument (although I notice it is possible to post anything positive and that is simply taken as read) this is a cut and paste (sorry) from todays Daily Telegraph Business Editorial which observes similar frustrations to many expats and also I believe many aussies (particulary expat aussies).
"Aussies nab a Pom after yet another pummelling
Take your eye off a boomerang and it's likely to hit you in the face. Finding this out once might be considered unfortunate, but Frank Cicutto has been thumped so often that even his indulgent board at National Australia Bank has decided it needs a new chief executive.
In five years, he has seen a foray into US mortgages end in a $2.2billion writedown, a A$100m exposure to a collapsed local bus company and a botched attempt to buy a blocking stake in Aussie insurer AMP after his bid was rebuffed. The straw that broke the wallaby's back was the impressive A$360m loss chalked up by just four forex traders, which promises further embarrassment (at least).
Are they just more tolerant of failure down under, or do these disasters flow inexorably from a political culture that regards its big banks as national treasures, off limits for foreigners?
Now they have called in a foreigner, and a Brit at that, in the shape of John Stewart, late of the Woolwich and Barclays. He promises to integrate its four little UK banks (at last, after 14 years) and put the rest of its operations back on an even keel. Mr Stewart has boasted that he is "good at setting things up and repairing things that are broken". Sounds about right."
I can already hear the cries that he has no local experience rising from the local business community.
Given postings like this are then subjected to demands to support the argument (although I notice it is possible to post anything positive and that is simply taken as read) this is a cut and paste (sorry) from todays Daily Telegraph Business Editorial which observes similar frustrations to many expats and also I believe many aussies (particulary expat aussies).
"Aussies nab a Pom after yet another pummelling
Take your eye off a boomerang and it's likely to hit you in the face. Finding this out once might be considered unfortunate, but Frank Cicutto has been thumped so often that even his indulgent board at National Australia Bank has decided it needs a new chief executive.
In five years, he has seen a foray into US mortgages end in a $2.2billion writedown, a A$100m exposure to a collapsed local bus company and a botched attempt to buy a blocking stake in Aussie insurer AMP after his bid was rebuffed. The straw that broke the wallaby's back was the impressive A$360m loss chalked up by just four forex traders, which promises further embarrassment (at least).
Are they just more tolerant of failure down under, or do these disasters flow inexorably from a political culture that regards its big banks as national treasures, off limits for foreigners?
Now they have called in a foreigner, and a Brit at that, in the shape of John Stewart, late of the Woolwich and Barclays. He promises to integrate its four little UK banks (at last, after 14 years) and put the rest of its operations back on an even keel. Mr Stewart has boasted that he is "good at setting things up and repairing things that are broken". Sounds about right."
I can already hear the cries that he has no local experience rising from the local business community.
Originally posted by OzTennis
(i) - Did you think the population was many times 20 million before going?
(ii) - Literally millions further their careers in Australia and some choose to further it overseas. How many Brits further their careers overseas? What's the point? Global economy and all that as someone else pointed out.
(iii) - go to HK then, no-one's stopping you. There will always be a place for genuinely entrepreneurial people in Australia and any market economy. Not everyone succeeds at it (and some if they don't blame others!)
(iv) - I don't know what you mean by this. Australia has moved beyond industrialised, like the UK and is now dominated by the tertiary sector which typically provides 2/3 or more of all jobs. OECD statistics will show you that Australia has faster growth rates and comparable if not higher GDP per capita than the UK. There must be some comparative advantages at work.
OzTennis
(i) - Did you think the population was many times 20 million before going?
(ii) - Literally millions further their careers in Australia and some choose to further it overseas. How many Brits further their careers overseas? What's the point? Global economy and all that as someone else pointed out.
(iii) - go to HK then, no-one's stopping you. There will always be a place for genuinely entrepreneurial people in Australia and any market economy. Not everyone succeeds at it (and some if they don't blame others!)
(iv) - I don't know what you mean by this. Australia has moved beyond industrialised, like the UK and is now dominated by the tertiary sector which typically provides 2/3 or more of all jobs. OECD statistics will show you that Australia has faster growth rates and comparable if not higher GDP per capita than the UK. There must be some comparative advantages at work.
OzTennis
Feb 3rd 2004, 9:54 am
#51
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally posted by sjn2003
Hijack - WBB. No visa news today then?? How's the weather in your part of the world? What did you have for breakfast ??
Hijack - WBB. No visa news today then?? How's the weather in your part of the world? What did you have for breakfast ??
no visa mate, will be ringing tomorrow, weather is a little wet and windy, breakfast was a banana on top of my all bran.
</hijack>
Feb 3rd 2004, 10:01 am
#52
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Oct 2003
Location: Coogee, Sydney
Posts: 1,017
Originally posted by WBB
<hijack>
no visa mate, will be ringing tomorrow, weather is a little wet and windy, breakfast was a banana on top of my all bran.
</hijack>
<hijack>
no visa mate, will be ringing tomorrow, weather is a little wet and windy, breakfast was a banana on top of my all bran.
</hijack>
Feb 3rd 2004, 10:05 am
#53
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Joined: Oct 2003
Location: Coogee, Sydney
Posts: 1,017
Originally posted by dugongs
I have to agree with the point Oz is not a great place to go if you are a professional. It is a small market. But the biggest worry is the way business is conducted there i.e. in an extraordinary way mostly at odds with the rest of the world. It's a good training ground to observe all thats worst in the world of management aka david brent style but my advice is do not spend more than a few years there or you start to believe it's right.
Given postings like this are then subjected to demands to support the argument (although I notice it is possible to post anything positive and that is simply taken as read) this is a cut and paste (sorry) from todays Daily Telegraph Business Editorial which observes similar frustrations to many expats and also I believe many aussies (particulary expat aussies).
"Aussies nab a Pom after yet another pummelling
Take your eye off a boomerang and it's likely to hit you in the face. Finding this out once might be considered unfortunate, but Frank Cicutto has been thumped so often that even his indulgent board at National Australia Bank has decided it needs a new chief executive.
In five years, he has seen a foray into US mortgages end in a $2.2billion writedown, a A$100m exposure to a collapsed local bus company and a botched attempt to buy a blocking stake in Aussie insurer AMP after his bid was rebuffed. The straw that broke the wallaby's back was the impressive A$360m loss chalked up by just four forex traders, which promises further embarrassment (at least).
Are they just more tolerant of failure down under, or do these disasters flow inexorably from a political culture that regards its big banks as national treasures, off limits for foreigners?
Now they have called in a foreigner, and a Brit at that, in the shape of John Stewart, late of the Woolwich and Barclays. He promises to integrate its four little UK banks (at last, after 14 years) and put the rest of its operations back on an even keel. Mr Stewart has boasted that he is "good at setting things up and repairing things that are broken". Sounds about right."
I can already hear the cries that he has no local experience rising from the local business community.
I have to agree with the point Oz is not a great place to go if you are a professional. It is a small market. But the biggest worry is the way business is conducted there i.e. in an extraordinary way mostly at odds with the rest of the world. It's a good training ground to observe all thats worst in the world of management aka david brent style but my advice is do not spend more than a few years there or you start to believe it's right.
Given postings like this are then subjected to demands to support the argument (although I notice it is possible to post anything positive and that is simply taken as read) this is a cut and paste (sorry) from todays Daily Telegraph Business Editorial which observes similar frustrations to many expats and also I believe many aussies (particulary expat aussies).
"Aussies nab a Pom after yet another pummelling
Take your eye off a boomerang and it's likely to hit you in the face. Finding this out once might be considered unfortunate, but Frank Cicutto has been thumped so often that even his indulgent board at National Australia Bank has decided it needs a new chief executive.
In five years, he has seen a foray into US mortgages end in a $2.2billion writedown, a A$100m exposure to a collapsed local bus company and a botched attempt to buy a blocking stake in Aussie insurer AMP after his bid was rebuffed. The straw that broke the wallaby's back was the impressive A$360m loss chalked up by just four forex traders, which promises further embarrassment (at least).
Are they just more tolerant of failure down under, or do these disasters flow inexorably from a political culture that regards its big banks as national treasures, off limits for foreigners?
Now they have called in a foreigner, and a Brit at that, in the shape of John Stewart, late of the Woolwich and Barclays. He promises to integrate its four little UK banks (at last, after 14 years) and put the rest of its operations back on an even keel. Mr Stewart has boasted that he is "good at setting things up and repairing things that are broken". Sounds about right."
I can already hear the cries that he has no local experience rising from the local business community.
Feb 3rd 2004, 10:08 am
#54
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Thread Starter
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OzTennis,
In response to your comments, please remember that I put forward some reasons as to why professionals may want to leave Australia.
But, to address your comments:
(i) - Did you think the population was many times 20 million before going?
No - but that wasn't the point I was making. I was pointing out that it leads to many fewer opportunities (especially given its distance from other significant economic centres).
(ii) - Literally millions further their careers in Australia and some choose to further it overseas. How many Brits further their careers overseas? What's the point? Global economy and all that as someone else pointed out.
Millions - is this true?? Do so many people (and I was really referring to those from the West) really go to Oz to further their careers, or mainly for the lifestyle?
(iii) - go to HK then, no-one's stopping you. There will always be a place for genuinely entrepreneurial people in Australia and any market economy. Not everyone succeeds at it (and some if they don't blame others!)
Whoa! The point made is that some countries are more conducive to entrepreneurial activity than others. Of course, some will succeed. But, the economy would be better off if many more did.
(iv) - I don't know what you mean by this. Australia has moved beyond industrialised, like the UK and is now dominated by the tertiary sector which typically provides 2/3 or more of all jobs. OECD statistics will show you that Australia has faster growth rates and comparable if not higher GDP per capita than the UK...
True, but the longer tem doesn't look so rosy. For example, in 2000, Oz's % investment in R&D is below the OECD average - it sits slightly above Slovenia and ~20% less than the UK.
In response to your comments, please remember that I put forward some reasons as to why professionals may want to leave Australia.
But, to address your comments:
(i) - Did you think the population was many times 20 million before going?
No - but that wasn't the point I was making. I was pointing out that it leads to many fewer opportunities (especially given its distance from other significant economic centres).
(ii) - Literally millions further their careers in Australia and some choose to further it overseas. How many Brits further their careers overseas? What's the point? Global economy and all that as someone else pointed out.
Millions - is this true?? Do so many people (and I was really referring to those from the West) really go to Oz to further their careers, or mainly for the lifestyle?
(iii) - go to HK then, no-one's stopping you. There will always be a place for genuinely entrepreneurial people in Australia and any market economy. Not everyone succeeds at it (and some if they don't blame others!)
Whoa! The point made is that some countries are more conducive to entrepreneurial activity than others. Of course, some will succeed. But, the economy would be better off if many more did.
(iv) - I don't know what you mean by this. Australia has moved beyond industrialised, like the UK and is now dominated by the tertiary sector which typically provides 2/3 or more of all jobs. OECD statistics will show you that Australia has faster growth rates and comparable if not higher GDP per capita than the UK...
True, but the longer tem doesn't look so rosy. For example, in 2000, Oz's % investment in R&D is below the OECD average - it sits slightly above Slovenia and ~20% less than the UK.
Feb 3rd 2004, 10:12 am
#55
Dugongidae Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Location: Wimbledon, England
Posts: 441
that post is showing you are a potential tall poppy mate - the locals will enjoy stamping all over you.
go to oz with that attitude and watch out for the daggers in the back.
go to oz with that attitude and watch out for the daggers in the back.
Originally posted by sjn2003
Is a small market a problem (once you have a landed that job)? I quite fancy being a big UK fish in a small Aussie pond !
Is a small market a problem (once you have a landed that job)? I quite fancy being a big UK fish in a small Aussie pond !
Feb 3rd 2004, 10:15 am
#56
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 385
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MikeStanton
(ii) - Literally millions further their careers in Australia and some choose to further it overseas. How many Brits further their careers overseas? What's the point? Global economy and all that as someone else pointed out.
Millions - is this true?? Do so many people (and I was really referring to those from the West) really go to Oz to further their careers, or mainly for the lifestyle?
I think the point which Oz is trying to make is no they don't go all to Australia but they do go all around the world to further their career. I know a lot of Brits who are in their 20s and are contracting all around the world. Just like many Australian do.
I think you need different thing in different parts of your life. I truly believe most people don't go to Australia to further their career but to experience the life style. If that is what you want out of life what is wrong with that?
(ii) - Literally millions further their careers in Australia and some choose to further it overseas. How many Brits further their careers overseas? What's the point? Global economy and all that as someone else pointed out.
Millions - is this true?? Do so many people (and I was really referring to those from the West) really go to Oz to further their careers, or mainly for the lifestyle?
I think the point which Oz is trying to make is no they don't go all to Australia but they do go all around the world to further their career. I know a lot of Brits who are in their 20s and are contracting all around the world. Just like many Australian do.
I think you need different thing in different parts of your life. I truly believe most people don't go to Australia to further their career but to experience the life style. If that is what you want out of life what is wrong with that?
Feb 3rd 2004, 10:16 am
#57
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Joined: Jan 2004
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Originally posted by dugongs
I have to agree with the point Oz is not a great place to go if you are a professional. It is a small market. But the biggest worry is the way business is conducted there i.e. in an extraordinary way mostly at odds with the rest of the world. It's a good training ground to observe all thats worst in the world of management aka david brent style but my advice is do not spend more than a few years there or you start to believe it's right..
I have to agree with the point Oz is not a great place to go if you are a professional. It is a small market. But the biggest worry is the way business is conducted there i.e. in an extraordinary way mostly at odds with the rest of the world. It's a good training ground to observe all thats worst in the world of management aka david brent style but my advice is do not spend more than a few years there or you start to believe it's right..
Effective Australian management - now there's an oxymoron.
I have worked in UK, US, France, Belgium and Oz. And, without doubt, the managers I have encountered in Oz - in the financial sector - are the worst.
Perhaps, it's the supposed 'egalitarianism/no worries/school of hard knocks/management training is for poofters' approach of Aussies that prevents them from being effective managers.
Some time ago I read a book that compared management styles and effectiveness in the Western world (sorry, I can't remember the title). Australia was one of the worst and one of the Scandinavian countries the best.
And don't forget the Australian obsession with "world class"...
Feb 3rd 2004, 10:23 am
#58
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Joined: Oct 2003
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Originally posted by dugongs
that post is showing you are a potential tall poppy mate - the locals will enjoy stamping all over you.
go to oz with that attitude and watch out for the daggers in the back.
that post is showing you are a potential tall poppy mate - the locals will enjoy stamping all over you.
go to oz with that attitude and watch out for the daggers in the back.
I do take your point. I'm not too keen on playing office politics though...however I live in Hackney, so my personal stab jacket sounds like it will come in handy
Feb 3rd 2004, 10:28 am
#59
Forum Regular
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 193
How much time do you need to spend thinking about it?
You go there - either you like it or you dont and if you stay hopefully you contribute to make it a better place.
Traveling is a great way to open your mind to other things.
I wonder if Oz makes it harder for people from the UK to just travel and expand their horizons, by making it so damn hard to get a visa to work there?
Its all or nothing with these visas when instead it should be an opportunity.
Each country has something to offer; we could easily get carried away with analyzing life instead of living it?
Anyway its a shame that things cant be easier. Theres no such thing as failure when you've been half way around the world to try living in a new country. There's no point in competitiveness; whats the point of a house with a large entertainment area when you are so new to a country you have no one to share it with?
Good on us all for at least having a go.
You go there - either you like it or you dont and if you stay hopefully you contribute to make it a better place.
Traveling is a great way to open your mind to other things.
I wonder if Oz makes it harder for people from the UK to just travel and expand their horizons, by making it so damn hard to get a visa to work there?
Its all or nothing with these visas when instead it should be an opportunity.
Each country has something to offer; we could easily get carried away with analyzing life instead of living it?
Anyway its a shame that things cant be easier. Theres no such thing as failure when you've been half way around the world to try living in a new country. There's no point in competitiveness; whats the point of a house with a large entertainment area when you are so new to a country you have no one to share it with?
Good on us all for at least having a go.
Feb 3rd 2004, 10:28 am
#60
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 7,949
Originally posted by dugongs
I have to agree with the point Oz is not a great place to go if you are a professional. It is a small market. But the biggest worry is the way business is conducted there i.e. in an extraordinary way mostly at odds with the rest of the world. It's a good training ground to observe all thats worst in the world of management aka david brent style but my advice is do not spend more than a few years there or you start to believe it's right.
Given postings like this are then subjected to demands to support the argument (although I notice it is possible to post anything positive and that is simply taken as read) this is a cut and paste (sorry) from todays Daily Telegraph Business Editorial which observes similar frustrations to many expats and also I believe many aussies (particulary expat aussies).
"Aussies nab a Pom after yet another pummelling
Take your eye off a boomerang and it's likely to hit you in the face. Finding this out once might be considered unfortunate, but Frank Cicutto has been thumped so often that even his indulgent board at National Australia Bank has decided it needs a new chief executive.
In five years, he has seen a foray into US mortgages end in a $2.2billion writedown, a A$100m exposure to a collapsed local bus company and a botched attempt to buy a blocking stake in Aussie insurer AMP after his bid was rebuffed. The straw that broke the wallaby's back was the impressive A$360m loss chalked up by just four forex traders, which promises further embarrassment (at least).
Are they just more tolerant of failure down under, or do these disasters flow inexorably from a political culture that regards its big banks as national treasures, off limits for foreigners?
Now they have called in a foreigner, and a Brit at that, in the shape of John Stewart, late of the Woolwich and Barclays. He promises to integrate its four little UK banks (at last, after 14 years) and put the rest of its operations back on an even keel. Mr Stewart has boasted that he is "good at setting things up and repairing things that are broken". Sounds about right."
I can already hear the cries that he has no local experience rising from the local business community.
I have to agree with the point Oz is not a great place to go if you are a professional. It is a small market. But the biggest worry is the way business is conducted there i.e. in an extraordinary way mostly at odds with the rest of the world. It's a good training ground to observe all thats worst in the world of management aka david brent style but my advice is do not spend more than a few years there or you start to believe it's right.
Given postings like this are then subjected to demands to support the argument (although I notice it is possible to post anything positive and that is simply taken as read) this is a cut and paste (sorry) from todays Daily Telegraph Business Editorial which observes similar frustrations to many expats and also I believe many aussies (particulary expat aussies).
"Aussies nab a Pom after yet another pummelling
Take your eye off a boomerang and it's likely to hit you in the face. Finding this out once might be considered unfortunate, but Frank Cicutto has been thumped so often that even his indulgent board at National Australia Bank has decided it needs a new chief executive.
In five years, he has seen a foray into US mortgages end in a $2.2billion writedown, a A$100m exposure to a collapsed local bus company and a botched attempt to buy a blocking stake in Aussie insurer AMP after his bid was rebuffed. The straw that broke the wallaby's back was the impressive A$360m loss chalked up by just four forex traders, which promises further embarrassment (at least).
Are they just more tolerant of failure down under, or do these disasters flow inexorably from a political culture that regards its big banks as national treasures, off limits for foreigners?
Now they have called in a foreigner, and a Brit at that, in the shape of John Stewart, late of the Woolwich and Barclays. He promises to integrate its four little UK banks (at last, after 14 years) and put the rest of its operations back on an even keel. Mr Stewart has boasted that he is "good at setting things up and repairing things that are broken". Sounds about right."
I can already hear the cries that he has no local experience rising from the local business community.
Interesting article on the troubles of the National Bank.
Marks and Spencer brought in a Belgian to reverse their slide, BA started up Go and brought in an American woman ....... It isn't unique to bring in foreigners and it was well documented that M&S senior managers were 'spitting chips' that a foreigner was brought in.
David Brent and 'The Office' was devised and worked so well in the UK. Why? Just like Basil Fawlty I guess people laugh at things they see in some of their own?
4 Nick Leesons in the National Bank eh! They didn't bring National to its knees like Nick did with Barings, enabling Ing to pick it up for £1.
I guess I'm thinking of the line from some song 'before you accuse me, take a look at yourself'.
And how ironic that you quote from the Daily Torygraph which Lord Black (albeit Canadian) has scandalised with his business practices. And why is the UK print and satellite media dominated by Australians and Canadians?
Always good to have some banter with you dugongs.
OzTennis