education system
Nov 11th 2008, 8:28 am
#46
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Joined: May 2007
Location: Back in Blighty
Posts: 1,942
Re: education system
yeah I can tell. Been having a battle all year with my grade 3 son who is frankly bored and acting up as a result. I expected him to repeat some work this year but its ridiculous. They are adamant the work is ok and just give him more of the same. He's had 2 teachers and 1 was good at handling him and ok at extending the work without moving onto year 4 work (of which he's already done some in the uk!) the current one has put him in the too difficult box.
I guess this can happen at any school so we are trying to rectify it but also seriously considering moving him to the local catholic school.
I guess this can happen at any school so we are trying to rectify it but also seriously considering moving him to the local catholic school.
Nov 11th 2008, 8:44 am
#47
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Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Perth
Posts: 3,453
Re: education system
To know this you need three pieces of information:
1. You need to know the child's aptitude - innate intelligence if you like.
2. You need explicit expected standards in literacy and numeracy for every age group.
2. You need to be able to get hold of empirical data or some other form of predictor which tells you what a child with the aptitude of your child should be achieving on the literacy and numeracy standards.
Now the problem in Australia is that not many schools aptitude test and if they do, you, as a parent won't find out the result.
Not only that but there are no explicit standards in many states....
So you can't measure your child's achievement against what the typical child with your child's aptitude will achieve.
Asking about individual potential is all well and good but I guarantee that in most cases you will hear nothing other than the meaningless - "fairly able" "average" etc.
And if you do get an accurate response - "your child is above the 90th percentile in terms of non-verbal reasoning" or whatever, then ask - OK, what should my child know and understand in mathematics by the age of 9?
And watch the blank faces.
Last edited by NKSK version 2; Nov 11th 2008 at 8:57 am. Reason: clarification
Nov 11th 2008, 8:47 am
#48
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Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Perth
Posts: 3,453
Re: education system
yeah I can tell. Been having a battle all year with my grade 3 son who is frankly bored and acting up as a result. I expected him to repeat some work this year but its ridiculous. They are adamant the work is ok and just give him more of the same. He's had 2 teachers and 1 was good at handling him and ok at extending the work without moving onto year 4 work (of which he's already done some in the uk!) the current one has put him in the too difficult box.
I guess this can happen at any school so we are trying to rectify it but also seriously considering moving him to the local catholic school.
I guess this can happen at any school so we are trying to rectify it but also seriously considering moving him to the local catholic school.
Nov 11th 2008, 9:39 am
#49
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Hills District
Posts: 1,399
Re: education system
And the vast majority of schools and teachers will not be able to tell you this.
To know this you need three pieces of information:
1. You need to know the child's aptitude - innate intelligence if you like.
2. You need explicit expected standards in literacy and numeracy for every age group.
2. You need to be able to get hold of empirical data or some other form of predictor which tells you what a child with the aptitude of your child should be achieving on the literacy and numeracy standards.
Now the problem in Australia is that not many schools aptitude test and if they do, you, as a parent won't find out the result.
Not only that but there are no explicit standards in many states....
So you can't measure your child's achievement against what the typical child with your child's aptitude will achieve.
Asking about individual potential is all well and good but I guarantee that in most cases you will hear nothing other than the meaningless - "fairly able" "average" etc.
And if you do get an accurate response - "your child is above the 90th percentile in terms of non-verbal reasoning" or whatever, then ask - OK, what should my child know and understand in mathematics by the age of 9?
And watch the blank faces.
To know this you need three pieces of information:
1. You need to know the child's aptitude - innate intelligence if you like.
2. You need explicit expected standards in literacy and numeracy for every age group.
2. You need to be able to get hold of empirical data or some other form of predictor which tells you what a child with the aptitude of your child should be achieving on the literacy and numeracy standards.
Now the problem in Australia is that not many schools aptitude test and if they do, you, as a parent won't find out the result.
Not only that but there are no explicit standards in many states....
So you can't measure your child's achievement against what the typical child with your child's aptitude will achieve.
Asking about individual potential is all well and good but I guarantee that in most cases you will hear nothing other than the meaningless - "fairly able" "average" etc.
And if you do get an accurate response - "your child is above the 90th percentile in terms of non-verbal reasoning" or whatever, then ask - OK, what should my child know and understand in mathematics by the age of 9?
And watch the blank faces.
Nov 11th 2008, 9:47 am
#50
Forum Regular
Joined: Nov 2008
Location: WA
Posts: 222
Re: education system
OK, what should my child know and understand in mathematics by the age of 9?
This is exactly what I asked (except that my child was 10) and was given photocopies of some sheets headed up Number > Level 2 Elaboration and Number > Level 3 Elaboration which each contain 2 A4 sheets of text. I am none the wiser. I have also been informed that my child was on the 96th%ile on the mathematics component of the PEAC test which is apparently a good score but I still don't know what measure is being used to arrive at this figure.
This is exactly what I asked (except that my child was 10) and was given photocopies of some sheets headed up Number > Level 2 Elaboration and Number > Level 3 Elaboration which each contain 2 A4 sheets of text. I am none the wiser. I have also been informed that my child was on the 96th%ile on the mathematics component of the PEAC test which is apparently a good score but I still don't know what measure is being used to arrive at this figure.
Nov 11th 2008, 9:52 am
#51
Forum Regular
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 57
Re: education system
As a univerity educated adult from the UK who went to a primary school with no testing to see how i was doing against the rest of my class i quite like the australian system which develops the whole and allows kids to be kids.
I dont know what you are all concerned about!!!
I dont know what you are all concerned about!!!
Nov 11th 2008, 9:57 am
#52
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Oct 2006
Location: Yarraville, West Melbourne
Posts: 1,014
Re: education system
And the vast majority of schools and teachers will not be able to tell you this.
To know this you need three pieces of information:
1. You need to know the child's aptitude - innate intelligence if you like.
2. You need explicit expected standards in literacy and numeracy for every age group.
2. You need to be able to get hold of empirical data or some other form of predictor which tells you what a child with the aptitude of your child should be achieving on the literacy and numeracy standards.
Now the problem in Australia is that not many schools aptitude test and if they do, you, as a parent won't find out the result.
Not only that but there are no explicit standards in many states....
So you can't measure your child's achievement against what the typical child with your child's aptitude will achieve.
Asking about individual potential is all well and good but I guarantee that in most cases you will hear nothing other than the meaningless - "fairly able" "average" etc.
And if you do get an accurate response - "your child is above the 90th percentile in terms of non-verbal reasoning" or whatever, then ask - OK, what should my child know and understand in mathematics by the age of 9?
And watch the blank faces.
To know this you need three pieces of information:
1. You need to know the child's aptitude - innate intelligence if you like.
2. You need explicit expected standards in literacy and numeracy for every age group.
2. You need to be able to get hold of empirical data or some other form of predictor which tells you what a child with the aptitude of your child should be achieving on the literacy and numeracy standards.
Now the problem in Australia is that not many schools aptitude test and if they do, you, as a parent won't find out the result.
Not only that but there are no explicit standards in many states....
So you can't measure your child's achievement against what the typical child with your child's aptitude will achieve.
Asking about individual potential is all well and good but I guarantee that in most cases you will hear nothing other than the meaningless - "fairly able" "average" etc.
And if you do get an accurate response - "your child is above the 90th percentile in terms of non-verbal reasoning" or whatever, then ask - OK, what should my child know and understand in mathematics by the age of 9?
And watch the blank faces.
1, Aptitude tests are notoriously poor at actually producing anything more than a vague idea of a child intellegence- something any decent teacher should be able to tell you within a couple of weeks of lessons
2, Setting explicit standards is only possible for the 'average' it's impossible to be explicit about a whole age group as the difference in where they should be is huge. Setting these standards only encourages lessons to be taught to the middle of the class and lets down the top and bottom.
3, There is some value in predicting where a student should get to by a certain point, but it's very limited due to the vast number of variables that affect this attainment (both positively and negatively) so the chances of setting unrealistic or stupidly easy targets by this method is so high as to make it actually damaging to their education.
There is no evidence whatsoever that schools in the UK have improved following the introduction of continued testing of aptitude and knowledge or the publication of league tables, and I for one am glad schools over here do not have them as they do not improve teaching and learning one iota.
Having said all that I am also not impressed with the standards of teaching over here- I sat through in service training recently on differentiation and so much of what was being put forward was to my mind, very basic skills. This lack of differentiation is also coupled with a greater prevalence of mixed ability classes which the teachers are generally not catering for. The middle are taught to , the lower abilities are lost if not supported by SEN, and the most able get bored and disaffected.
Nov 11th 2008, 10:03 am
#53
Forum Regular
Joined: Nov 2008
Location: WA
Posts: 222
Re: education system
any decent teacher
And this is measured how exactly.....?
And this is measured how exactly.....?
Nov 11th 2008, 10:05 am
#54
Forum Regular
Joined: Nov 2008
Location: WA
Posts: 222
Re: education system
I dont know what you are all concerned about!!!
Spoken by someone who does not have children at school in Australia?
Spoken by someone who does not have children at school in Australia?
Nov 11th 2008, 10:19 am
#55
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Perth
Posts: 3,453
Re: education system
Unfortunately those three things won't really help because.
1, Aptitude tests are notoriously poor at actually producing anything more than a vague idea of a child intellegence- something any decent teacher should be able to tell you within a couple of weeks of lessons
2, Setting explicit standards is only possible for the 'average' it's impossible to be explicit about a whole age group as the difference in where they should be is huge. Setting these standards only encourages lessons to be taught to the middle of the class and lets down the top and bottom.
3, There is some value in predicting where a student should get to by a certain point, but it's very limited due to the vast number of variables that affect this attainment (both positively and negatively) so the chances of setting unrealistic or stupidly easy targets by this method is so high as to make it actually damaging to their education.
There is no evidence whatsoever that schools in the UK have improved following the introduction of continued testing of aptitude and knowledge or the publication of league tables, and I for one am glad schools over here do not have them as they do not improve teaching and learning one iota.
Having said all that I am also not impressed with the standards of teaching over here- I sat through in service training recently on differentiation and so much of what was being put forward was to my mind, very basic skills. This lack of differentiation is also coupled with a greater prevalence of mixed ability classes which the teachers are generally not catering for. The middle are taught to , the lower abilities are lost if not supported by SEN, and the most able get bored and disaffected.
1, Aptitude tests are notoriously poor at actually producing anything more than a vague idea of a child intellegence- something any decent teacher should be able to tell you within a couple of weeks of lessons
2, Setting explicit standards is only possible for the 'average' it's impossible to be explicit about a whole age group as the difference in where they should be is huge. Setting these standards only encourages lessons to be taught to the middle of the class and lets down the top and bottom.
3, There is some value in predicting where a student should get to by a certain point, but it's very limited due to the vast number of variables that affect this attainment (both positively and negatively) so the chances of setting unrealistic or stupidly easy targets by this method is so high as to make it actually damaging to their education.
There is no evidence whatsoever that schools in the UK have improved following the introduction of continued testing of aptitude and knowledge or the publication of league tables, and I for one am glad schools over here do not have them as they do not improve teaching and learning one iota.
Having said all that I am also not impressed with the standards of teaching over here- I sat through in service training recently on differentiation and so much of what was being put forward was to my mind, very basic skills. This lack of differentiation is also coupled with a greater prevalence of mixed ability classes which the teachers are generally not catering for. The middle are taught to , the lower abilities are lost if not supported by SEN, and the most able get bored and disaffected.
I think the UK has taken testing to the other extreme - and it's a system which I disagree with.
I don't agree with your earlier points though. If I have data on 10000 kids who have varying degrees of aptitude in Year 7 and 5 years later have varying degrees of mathematical ability shown in a Year 12 general maths paper then I should be able to plonk my Year 7 child on to this chart and find out how much of the final paper, 5 years down the line, he would be expected to get right.
Yes it uses the average of 10000 kids but statistically it gives a key indicator as to your child's potential. OK, so you might not hold your child to that attainment level but if you have a child who, according to past data should be heading towards 90% on a Y12 maths paper and they are still studying their two times table in class at Year 7 then it becomes pretty powerful in terms of parent-school discussion!
Nov 11th 2008, 10:40 am
#56
Forum Regular
Joined: Nov 2008
Location: WA
Posts: 222
Re: education system
[QUOTE=NKSK version 2;6961527]... and they are still studying their two times table in class at Year 7 ...
Or, in deed in year 5 as was the case at my son's school
Or, in deed in year 5 as was the case at my son's school
Nov 11th 2008, 10:45 am
#57
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Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Hills District
Posts: 1,399
Re: education system
Statistics have nothing to do with the quality of education.
