Viking Man

Hi there,

My first post on here. Sorry it's long, please bear with me as I tell my story.

I and my family are trying to make a decision whether or not to come to Australia. My situation and background is pretty unusual. I am a dual national British/UK, turning 40 this year (aargh, where did the time go?). I was born in Oz while my slightly hippy-ish parents were there, but left when I was two to live in the UK. My dad was a Dane working on the Sydney Opera House in the 1960's and my mum was British-born but raised in Oz after the War. I was raised in a rather liberal Scandinavian way, very different from my neighbouring friends strict middle-class English upbringing. I worked pretty hard at school in England (although I loathed the place!) and graduated from Cambridge University, no less, with a Computer Science degree. But by then I was feeling burnt out and becoming more and more frustrated with England and its culture. I worked in some interesting places after Uni, travelling to different countries on contracts that I organised for myself, and working in research at Bradford Univesity, but it wasn't really an upward path. But basically I have been working in the education sector and in IT. Then in 1998 I married a Japanese woman and came to Japan to do an English teaching job. My wife spent many years in the UK and speaks excellent English and we have twin two-year-olds who were born here. My kids inherit my Australian and Britsh dual nationality (I'm just going through the rather strict procedures to register them as Australian) but my wife has never been to Oz. However I believe I should be able to get an Australian spouse visa for her.

I love living in Japan, but although my job here is fairly safe, it's not completely so. And if I lose it we're really stuck. For this reason and others we are planning to finish our stint in Japan in a year and a half. At that point we'll be at a bit of a crossroads: we have the option of living in the UK or in Australia. I had originally ruled out the Australian option but recently my wife has got excited about the idea of living there. I think she feels things are set up better for Japanese people in Oz, the food and climate are nicer and perhaps she can get work more easily than in the UK, and our sons will be maybe be able to keep up their Japanese language and culture, and at least there's no jet lag if we go to Japan for the hols. Also thinking very long term, maybe Oz is a better place to grow old as the medical system is less overloaded than in the UK?

We're looking at living in Melbourne, Perth or somewhere up the coast from Sydney. Sydney itself is too hot and people too agressive for me. Melbourne does seem to pretty good for Japanese, with apparently 8000 Japanese living there and a full-time Japanese school. Now being a bit of a odd couple :-) we're looking at putting our kids into an alternative school system, a Rudolf Steiner school, and there seem to be a surprising number of these in Oz. They are private schools but have some government funding I believe, and most of them are less than half the price of those in the UK. We have already saved up more than enough to pay all the fees for our kids until the end of the Year 12. We've been investigating the schools and narrowed it down to five or six best options. We're thinking of doing a research holiday in Oz next April to visit the schools that look good, and check out the neighbourhoods and local accomodation. Rents certainly look a good deal less than in the UK (if you rule out Sydney that is) from the real estate search sites like www.domain.com.au that I've been looking at.

OK so far so good, but of course my big worry is finding work. Whether I go to live in the UK or Oz, I'm going to face an uphill struggle finding work. I want to retrain and update my IT skills and eventually apply them in an education or public sector setting, for example in computer services in a university or TAFE, or in a local municipal government. I believe the problems I will face will be largely similar, and that the IT work situation is fairly similar (i.e. not good but getting better) in both countries? As a Brit I am not so familiar with the Australian world of work and how things work there, so I guess it will be harder to get work in Oz, but perhaps not that much harder and maybe my intermediate Japanese skills could be useful (they're of no real use in the UK). Certainly I'm going to need to do some re-training courses, and face the problem of age discrimination too. My thinking is that I can do similar (or indeed exactly the same) kinds of IT training courses in Oz as I can in the UK. If after a year or 18 months, things just aren't working out in Oz, we'll head back to the UK, and my wife and kids will have had a bit of experience of life in Oz and we won't be any worse off 'scept a bit poorer and I'll be a year older :-( So I'm thinking "give it a go".

That's as far as I've got in my thinking so far. Last time I was in Oz was 20 years ago, but like I said we're looking at coming next April for a couple of weeks to check it out. Anyone got any thoughts, advice, reality checks, etc. Thanks.

renth

joern utzon?

renth

Come to Australia. Don't go to the UK.

As you were born here you won't have to go through the tortuous visa process (well, for your wife, but you won't have any problems with that).

You might want to reserve a final decision after a thorough fact finding trip with your family.

MikeStanton

The research holiday is definitely a good idea. The good news is Oz has moved on a lot in the past 20 years.

Overall, I would agree that 'giving Oz a go for 18 months' is a good idea. It all comes down to what you and your family want - if you want relative quiet and lots of space (outside cities), Oz is a good option.

The IT market is picking-up in the Oz capital cities. [Although it is easier to get a better-paid job in London than Sydney, there is still the cost of housing to take into account]. Housing aside, the cost of living in Oz is comparable to UK. So, just like UK, many families are dual-income. Still, whatever job-hunting you can do before you arrive in Oz, the better.

Given you have Oz citizenship, it may be relatively straightforward to get a job in the Oz public sector - although it doesn't pay particularly well.

I tend to agree with your wife about Japanese in Oz compared with UK. There certainly do seem to be more 'pockets' of Japanese in Oz, although often they are in the more expensive areas (eg Northbridge, Sydney) - paid for by their Japanese companies. Also, sashimi is cheaper in Oz! Having said that the Japanese tend to stay together in Oz - perhaps they integrate more in UK?

Schools-wise, we also sent our daughter to a Rudolf Steiner school (in Sydney), which was a good school.

I don't believe that the medical system will necessarily be better in the long term in Oz than UK : the fact is we're all living too long in the West and putting too much strain on the health systems. Although Oz/UK may not move to the US-type system, more of our earnings will need to be directed into looking after us as we crumble!

Viking Man

No, he was Utzon's translator (Utzon couldn't speak English that well) and then when the project went over-budget and Utzon left in a huff, dad was one of the guys who finished off the main SOH building (they never did complete all the landscaping around Circular Quay which was part of Utzon's original grand plan).

MikeStanton, thanks for you advice. I wasn't expecting to find anyone on this forum who used a Steiner school. Did you send your child to Glenaeon school by any chance? Do you know about any of the other Steiner schools in Oz? I guess Glenaeon is the best Steiner school in Oz, but it's so expensive to live on Sydney's North Shore. My mum and dad lived in a house in Balmain on the South part of the bay, with a veranda over the sea and a boat moored underneath. It was dirt cheap back in the 60's, I wonder how much places like that cost now?! Anyway we are looking at Melbourne Steiner School or Sophia Mundi (apparently there is a Japanese student in Sophia Mundi already) among others for our two boys.

MikeStanton

Yes, you're right - it was Glenaeon; lovely location and a good school. One of the reasons we chose Glenaeon was the good rap given it by our daughter's teachers. I think there is a RS school either in Brisbane or south of it - but, I don't know if it's any good. Back in the UK, there is a RS school near us in Hertfordshire, which is handy

A Balmain house in the location you're talking about - my guess is $A2+ million. Scary.

Melbourne is a good compromise - it still has the buzz and attractions of a city, but housing is ~30% cheaper than Sydney.

JAJ

Out of interest, how did you obtain British citizenship if your father wasn't British?

The reason I ask is that prior to 1983, British women could not automatically pass on their citizenship to non-UK born children. From 1979, the British government did accept applications for such children to be registered as British - do you have a British certificate of registration or naturalisation?


Are you *sure* your kids are British, if they were born in Japan? Have they got British passports?

The reason I ask is that even if you are British yourself, you may be British 'by descent' and non-UK born children do not automatically acquire British citizenship unless registered as such (for which there are specific requirements).

Jeremy

Badge

it wasn't until I arrived here myself that I realised this..I thought the margin was a lot less..

Viking Man

Yup they're British all right: I got the British embassy in Tokyo to issue them each with British birth certificates to prove it. I faxed a copy of my UK registration certificate to the British embassy in Tokyo and they said it's kosher. My children are British by descent, so if they marry a non-British and have children outside the UK, their children will not be British.

Innyjim

What a picture ! The British Embassy in Tokyo confirming that your kids are kosher........

JAJ

The fact you were registered as British may have been the deciding factor here. I hope for the sake of your Australian citizenship that you were less than 18 when you acquired British citizenship (otherwise you have a problem).


Unless they're in Crown or designated service - in which case their children would be deemed to be born in the UK irrespective of place of birth.

Otherwise there may be some options for them to register non-UK born children as British citizens:
http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind...izenship.html?

You may have acquired Danish citizenship at birth, but could well have lost it around age 22 unless you made a specific application to keep it.

And your kids likely have Japanese citizenship as well. However, Japan is quite strict about dual citizenship and apparently will revoke their Japanese citizenship in their early 20s unless they apply to keep it and prove that they have lost their Australian and British citizenship.

Jeremy

Viking Man

I believe I was about 13 when I registered, yes. I remember my parents looking into it all. But what kind of problem? I've got an Australian birth certificate and have had a valid Australian passport for 20 years: can my citizenship can be taken away from me? Yikes!

My father changed his nationality to British and (I presume) gave up his Danish citizenship, so I guess I would have lost my right to Danish citizenship then.

Indeed, spot on. Right now they are Japanese, but since Japan does not (and never ever will) accept the idea of dual nationality with another nation, yes at 22 or thereabouts my kids will have to decide which it is to be. However, even if they become "foreigners" they still have a bit of the old Nippon blood through their veins. There's a special 5-year unconditional work visa in Japan for people who have Japanese ancestors. So even if they give up their Japanese nationality they still can live and work fairly easily here should they want to.

Jeremy thanks for your advice. How come you know so much about all this stuff?

JAJ

If you had waited until age 18 you would have lost Australian citizenship upon taking British citizenship. Prior to 4th April 2002, adult Australians acquiring another citizenship usually lost Australian citizenship automatically.

As you became a dual citizen while a child, that's quite ok.


As far as I'm aware if a Danish adult acquires another citizenship, he usually loses Danish citizenship automatically.

So far, Denmark has not followed Sweden (in 2001) and Finland and Iceland (both in 2003) in removing restrictions on dual citizenship. If they do, your father may have a period of time available to recover his Danish citizenship.

You may have lost yours either at that point, or by not registering to reclaim it by age 22. To be sure, *write* to the Danish Embassy and ask them.

Incidentally, if your father had become an Australian citizen when he was in Australia, he would have lost that status when he became British. And in that case you would probably have lost your Australian citizenship too (child of a parent losing Australian citizenship). As your father was never Australian, this section of the law didn't kick in.





An academic interest going back many years

Jeremy

Viking Man

Would I have lost my Australian citizenship even though I was born in Australia?

JAJ

Being born in Australia did not provide any exemption from the loss of citizenship rules.

Jeremy