MartinLuther

It is often said on this forum that Australia is the most over regulated country on the planet. I was wondering if there is any evidence for this (or rather: is it more regulated than the UK). In the past, I've seen people list areas and industries that are supposedly regulated in Aus and not in the UK but most (if not all) have turned out to be regulated in the UK.

Can anyone give a genuine area or industry that is regulated in Australia where the equivalent industry is not regulated in the UK or, for the sake of balance, provide the reverse?

It would be helpful if people could provide evidence rather than just a list of what they believe. I don't want to spend my time checking every claim.

I did have three suggestions from a previous thread which are: Electricity, Newsagents and the Airline industry. I personally know that Electricity* and the Airline industries are both regulated in the UK (by Ofgem and CAA). I don't know enough about the newsagent industry in Aus so I can't really comment. I know that UK newsagents are restricted on what they can sell and obviously those that sell tobacco and food are subject to regulation.

* I worked on the "1988 deregulation of Electricity" in the UK. This name was a misnomer as the "deregulated" industry was going to be regulated by Ofgem. This is why the name of the "deregulated electricity market" was changed to "competitive electricity market" during the project. Unfortunately the press continued to use the terms "deregulation" and "deregulated electricity market" which has stuck in the public consciousness. I agree that the UK is more competitive than Aus in certain areas.

Hopefully people can put their points without abuse or being subjected to abuse (although counter-arguments should not be confused with abuse). Anyone using abuse automatically loses their argument.

Here's to a good clean debate.

arkon

I think the problem is the word 'regulation'. I'm sure if you looked and did a country for country comparison they would both come out as highly regulated. The big difference for me it that here the people actuall self enforce any rules and regs with a zeal that is unmatched in Britian. Take just one poor but obvious comparison speeding. Both countries it's illegal to speed and speed limits are set and there isn't much between them. Here's the rub, In the UK it 'feels' like if you speed so long as you did it with due care and attention chances are you would get away with it and the police show more common sense and let minor transgressions go. Here by contrast you will get caught and the population self police themselves by and large and are reluctant to break the speed limits regardless of circumstances. I spend more time here watching my spedo than watching the road especially on double demerit point weekends etc.

Also annoying is that they have all the rules and regs to try and make tradesmen do a better job but in this regard there is no enforcement and the rules and regs are more in place to protect the jobs and keep competition at bay.

I'm sure someone will give you a proper list but for me it's the difference between a country where the people are treated like adults and one where they are treated like children. It also makes them happier with less room to feel insecure.

For me, both places equally regulated but one far more nannying and anal with the poplation zealously taking part in the nonesense.

Wol

Arkon is right about the word "regulation": if you use it in a colloquial sense there's no doubt at all in my mind that Australia wins hands-down in the sheer petty-mindedness department.

Two years ago you couldn't get permission to put a water tank in your garden here: now it's compulsory before you can even apply for planning. Two years ago you weren't allowed to build a detached garage - now you *have* to - integral ones are "out". (We managed to get a "variation" on that one because the regulations came in during one week when we were applying). The litany goes on. Our council has I'm told the highest legal bills in NSW because of the way they dictate the most trivial details to the ratepayers and therefore get taken to court all the time.

MartinLuther

I agree that speeding is more readily enforced in Aus and even more so in Vic. But I don't think you can draw the conclusion that people are treated more like adults in the UK. In Aus, I have been let off a fines because I explained the circumstances to the "authority". My experience is that there is less of a "Jobsworth" culture here and is therefore less petty. I think it is possible to be selective with the evidence (and experience) and prove that either country is more adult than the other.

I agree that there is more protectionism in the trades here, so in that respect you could say that Aus is more regulated. As for the population taking part in this nonsense - I've seen the opposite.

MartinLuther

Just before I left London I changed the double glazing in my rental flat (prior to sale). It turned out that I should have got planning permission or used an accredited window installer (an example of job protection if ever I've seen one). I had to get retro-planning permission which cost a few hundred quid and 2 visits from the council. This was to replace crappy 60's aluminium double glazing with more modern stuff - that worked. Two years earlier I could have just replaced it with no bother.

I think we can find specific examples in each country that shows one is more anal than the other.

arkon

I agree, so at the end of the day whether somone thinks it's more anal here than there is down to the day to day experiences that person has. I have had businesses in both countries and for me this place wins hands down.

Vash the Stampede

I trust you're aware that while this may be true for NSW, it is not true for the rest of Australia. It may even be true only within the area covered by your local council.

My personal observation on this issue that too many British ex-pats (unaccustomed to Australia's federal/state division) assume that the laws and regulations of their state are the same everywhere else in Australia.

I'm not suggesting that you fall into this category, Wol - but many others do.

It's worth bearing in mind.

Wol

You are certainly right in regard to our local council - it's notorious around here for stepping on *any* improvement/change.

Incidentally, what the hell are you doing up at this time of the morning?

NKSK version 2

Regulation is not the same as having an ombudsman which protects consumers.
As far as I understand, OFGEM and all the other Ofs in the UK are there to prevent abuse of the market.

Reguation in an economic sense means that there is a high degree of government interference which prevents the operation of the free market.

So for example in the case of airlines, if the government actively prevents other airlines from competing in the country then you would say that the market is regulated. If it interferes little then it would be heading towards deregulation - whether or not an OFGEM or equivalent was in existence.

MartinLuther

I know from experience that Ofgem is a regulator and not an Ombudsman. Their website states: "Ofgem is the regulator for Britain's gas and electricity industries. Its role is to promote choice and value for all customers.".

When I lived in the UK a couple of years ago the Electricity Ombudsman was a separate body. Has this changed?

My understanding is that the Ofs regulate their chosen markets.

When I did work for BMI, the Government (EU) was controlling who was allowed to fly the Atlantic route and who was allowed to fly within the EU. Has this changed?

MartinLuther

We agree on something

Here's a telling story.
I stopped outside a chemist in Twickenham about 9am one morning to pick up some cough medicine. When I came out, about 2 mins later, a traffic warden was writing a ticket. I said that he should stop because I was loading. He gave me some guff that the council had made this section of the road special and that there was no loading time. I asked where it said that. He said that it didn't. I asked what I needed to do to object to the ticket. He said that I should write a letter to the council explaining my position. I did and didn't hear anything for 6 months. Then I got a letter saying that I hadn't paid the ticket and that it was now double the fine. I wrote to say that I had made and objection and that they were not supposed to double the fine in this case. They wrote back that I had never written any letter to them. I then sent them a copy of the receipt that I got when I delivered the letter by hand. Any way this carried on until we got to the Ombudsman stage - whose ruling is binding on both parties. I sent my letter to the Ombudsman explaining my position. A few weeks later the Ombudsman sent me a letter saying that the council had not sent anything or attended the hearing so the case was found in my favour. A couple of days later the council sent me a letter explaining that the had not attended the hearing because of a computer failure and that they thought I was still guilty and that they were going to keep this in their records. Do you think at the end of all that I feel like the council had treated me as an adult? No. It was nice of them to tell me that they were going to keep information on me illegally.

NKSK version 2

Yes but regulation in this sense - promoting choice and value for customers - is to stop companies from ripping off customers.

Are you wanting to find out about true regulation in an economic sense - as defined by dictionaries? (which is what I've been talking about over the last couple of days) Or are you after finding out about bodies such as the Monopolies and Mergers Commission which essentially try to stop abuses of market power?

The debates going on in threads over the last few days have been about how much governments both in the UK and Australia interfere with markets - this is regulation in its truest sense.

Is this what you want to find out?

At the minute you seem to be dealing with different issues.

"Regulations" can exist to help the customer. e.g. there are regulations which prevent farmers using DDT on crops. This has nothing to do with freedom of entry and exit of firms from the market.

There are regulations put in place by Ofcom which stop BT from abusing its ownership of cabling infrastructure. This has absolutely nothing to do with restricting the entry and exit of firms from the market place.

Then there is regulation whereby newsagents need a licence to sell newspapers. This actively restricts firms from entering and exiting the market. A truly regulated market.

So what are you talking about when you talk about regulation?

Wol

I think most of us are using the word in its very very loose sense: as in "strangulation" of enterprise/initiative etc.

It's probably wrong, but it all falls into the same frustrating box!

I wanted a new foil for my razor: I went into the shop and of course they didn't carry one: they sold the same razor but no spares. So I ordered one: it would take 3 days. They would phone when it was in.

Next week I rang: no, it wasn't in yet but the computer said it would definitely be arriving by the 29th (this was now the 20th).

Fortnight later: no, it hasn't come in yet.

A couple of weeks later I was in the store, and thought I might ask how this order was going: "Oh, we haven't ordered it yet - we won't do that until we have at least three to get"!

Customer service Aussie style.

Now, Hutch will say (with references <g> that the same thing happens in the UK. Yes, it does - but it happens all the time in Oz, no-one thinks it strange, no-one complains, it "just part of life".

You have the definite impression of a whole society stumbling blindfold into the last century, no idea how the rest of the developed world has improved since the war and with "no worries" so long as the surf's up and the VB hasn't run out.

Perhaps they have it right, and it's "anal" to see it another way. Just spare me the "Aussie is always best" syndrome!

arkon

I agree again! Must be catching. This would have made me pretty mad too, luckily for me I had a team of lawyers I could unleash on my behalf so maybe for me wouldn't have been so bad.

As for regulation, I too am unsure of the meaning when it comes to this thread and maybe thats where all the defensive attitude comes from. For me when I say Australia is far too regulated, I mean it from the restrictive practices view point, For example the selling of newspapers regulation, The must park at 45 degrees with your arse facing in regulation. So for me Australia is over regulated in the 'Can't do this unless you have that' respect. Oh in triplicate, signed 3 times over with your full birth certificate, not the short version with your parents occupation missing from it. Oh and your great gandmothers birth certificate too!!!( I kid you not, I have had to produce her certificate in the past!)

arkon

Jeeez that just about summed it all up perfectly for me. All I can add is, I agree 100%!