arkon

I never said Australians are stupid, I just don't rate the educational system here. But if the shoe fits.....

ABCDiamond

How about this report at http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/58/60/34624460.pdf

In 2003, 41 countries participated in PISA.

Four countries outperformed Australia in mathematical literacy in PISA 2003 —Hong Kong-China, Finland, Korea, and the Netherlands.

Four countries performed significantly better than Australia in problem solving —Korea, Hong Kong-China, Finland and Japan.

Three countries achieved better results than Australia in scientific literacy —Finland, Japan and Korea.

But read page 14 where it begins: "While Australian students’ results in PISA 2003 were good to excellent, there are some aspects that are cause for concern."

moneypenny20

My problem is that you continually make blanket statements about Australia as a whole, in this instance because you have spoken to a few people and have read one article. (ok you have probably read more, but you quote one). My point is that you are living in a very tiny portion of the country where things, as you have mentioned time and time ago are not as they are for the majority of us.

In my old town in the UK we had three secondary schools. It was a well known fact, confirmed by the heads of the schools that if your child had an artistic bent they should go to one, if they were sporty they should go to another one and if the parents were snobbish arseholes they should go to the third.

Perhaps if you want serious debate you should head your thread and the first paragraph along the lines of "In my area" or "I have been told that...." and not bowl in with "All of Australia is rubbish because".

I admit I have only been here a couple of months, and my two children have only been in school for one week, but everyone I have spoken to, IN MY AREA, BOTH EXPAT AND CITIZENS are very happy with the education their children are receiving. Many of them have gone on to university and got excellent degrees; others have got apprenticeships and are out earning a good living. All the children I HAVE MET are polite, considerate, and nice to know. This may not be the case across the country - I DON'T KNOW. I only speak for the tiny area I live in.

arkon

Your right my observations are based on talking to people who were either born here, moved here and have or were kids that went through school here. Also a few lucky ones who were schooled in both countries. You are also right that my observations and comments are indeed based on far more than one article or report and the only reason I only referred to one article was that it was just an example and to put all the references on here would be a waste of time.

I still don't agree that its a generalization and of course you could find examples of good and poor schools and standards in both countries, of that I have no doubt. I also agree 100% that the products from Australian schools are generally in my own personal findings both pleasant to speak to and confident. On the flip side I am always left with the feeling that the children are less well educated and I am very much of the opinion that yes while the child lives and works in Australia amongst all his peers that went through the same system, then there won’t be a problem. But if that same child was to want to work in the UK or the US I’m confident they would be disadvantaged.

I have spent a lot of time working in the US and its very sad to say that most of the Americans I came into contact with at a upper business level ie. Presedents and vice Presidents that consider the Australians to be very *thick*. This is fact based on my own dealings with the yanks. The reason this was often a topic of conversation was because of my accent I was nearly always mistaken for an Australian and when I corrected them the usual response was ‘thank god for that’. I never used to give this any mileage as I always considered the yanks to be a bit thick or maybe immature would be a better description.

Now I’m here and have been for a year, I don’t see it matters in this respect where in Australia I am as the articles and folk I have derived this opinion from are situated all over the place.

Anyway this has gone miles from my $5 photocopy and regardless of what you all say my boy is going to either scotch college or somewhere like solihull boys school or better.
He can thank me or curse me for the decision when he’s a teenager!

moneypenny20

No one is knocking you wanting the best for your child. It's what we all want for our children. You go with what is best for you and yours, no question there

arkon

Thanks for the PDF whilst it was an interesting read the cynic in me might think the fact that half of it was paid for by the Australian education dept might mean they had a vested interest in making sure the *random* sample of 15 year olds was maybe not so random. Afterall if you were a principal that was taking part in the study you would hardly want to show your school in a poor light so maybe you would send your mekons to do the tests.

Also unless I'm missing something I couldn't see the UK on any of the graphs or have I gone blind?

MrsDagboy

I was going to go through some things & point out how ridiculous you sound when you spout stuff like that, but to be honest I can't be bothered. Your ignorance & the confidence with which you spout it just astounds me at times .

BTW, I hear that Elvis is alive & well & working in Maccas in Taree & often gets together for lunch with Neil Armstrong to laugh about that fake moonwalk.

Sue

See: http://britishexpats.com/forum/showp...75&postcount=7

ABCDiamond

Not blind I heard that the UK opted out as they couldn't find enough people to join in, however I am sure that someone was just having a laugh, as the UK does have very mnany intelligent children.

Your point about selecting the students to participate... I am sure that all the countries involved would have done the same, therefore keeping it equal ?

Did Australia actually pay for "half" of it ? Wasn't it covered by about 5 countries ?
You say it is a fact that Australia paid for half of it, but I don't recall seeing that fact, although I may have missed it.

arkon

On page 14 it says Australian ed dept paid half of the Australians bill and contributed to the overall running costs, well what it actuall said was :-

All of Australia’s share of
the international overheads and
half of the basic funding for PISA
within Australia was contributed
by the Australian Government
Department of Education,
Science and Training, while each
state and territory government
school system provided funding
in proportion to the numbers of
15-year-old students enrolled in
their schools. The Australian
Government also met the
additional cost of increasing the
size of the sample for PISA 2003

I'm not saying this was wrong but it does seem strange if you want an unbiased objective report to have the main principle with a vested interest in getting a good outcome funding so much of it. Not excactly an independent survey.

arkon

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree. Each of our own observations are based on our own independent observations, clearly you have witnessed something that makes you view my comments with scorn and thats fair enough but it still doesn't invalidate my own observations on the subject. Just a year ago I wouldn't have given two hoots about education as I had no interest apartf from friends being teachers and head masters etc. Now though I have a baby and am in a new country with an educational system and standards that I didn't experience first hand as a kid, so I'm naturally very nerverous about the prospect of doing the right thing.

Regardless of what you say all my information leads me to a very different opinion than your own. As I said before its my life and I have to do what I think is right (even if it later turns out to be wrong)

Hopfully when my boy goes to his nice big expensive private school he will get a good education and my opinion of the system here will change, when that happend I'll be the first on here saying I was wrong and all potential UK expats have nothing to worry about. Untill then..........

BadgeIsBack

Funny anecdote. Strange when the Yanks probably cop it more off the Aussies than just about anyone. They bait Yanks more than they bait Poms. My dealings with Americans in business is that they try very hard. (Seriously). Quite a good thing. But they get things wrong too.

For what's it worth, I do know an Aussie in Detroit who loved it there and thinks Aussies need to compete more and stop being so laid back. However, he is very opinionated and hyper, and maybe he went too far the other way.
Half the time, the Aussie laid back thing is a social skill. Like a duck. Under the surface, the legs are paddling quick, while above the surface all is serene.
I know many Aussies managers who competed well in Europe and were liked for their charismatic and laid back approach to management and their ability to identify with people.

ABCDiamond

And no doubt each of the other countries each paid all of their share of the International overheads, and half of the basic funding for PISA within their country.

It all seems pretty equal to me

It's a bit different to your statement that indicated that half of the survey was paid for by Australia and therefore biased

arkon

I too had some good work aquaintances that were Australian and got on very well, very nice guys. Then a few months later in a chance conversation it comes out they were not ozzies at all but from NZ! Both were in high power positions working in the UK to make a bit of serious money before returning.

ABCDiamond

You don't need big expensive private schools here, the smaller lower cost ones are very good.
Having seen my daughter, now in year 5, go through this system, I have no complaints with it, and I personally already feel that "potential UK expats have nothing to worry about".

However, different schools in different areas will have different results, especially in the out of the way areas.