Hi everyone

I read your discussion about the English helpline for Enel and Telecom..and what you ended up talking about..
So I was wondering what's your personal experience in regard to learning a foreign language at school?

Did you have a foreign language module at school back in uk?

I'm Italian and I started “learning” English mid- eighties at the primary school, which was good and quite a progress for those years; but year after year I realized how bad italian teachers were..( teaching english not only with an italian accent but worse,with a regional inflection!)

It's just not possible to learn a language without a mothertongue..and most of italians of my generation, able to have a decent conversation, learned by themselves..and not at school..
Never giving up faith, but I'm pretty sure that most of language teachers at secondary schools, nowadays,are still italians.

I read most of you have kids at school, I'm sure you can make comparison as well between Uk and Italy?, What do u think?

What's the english school approach to foreign languages? I'm curious..) Any better compared to Italy?

Ambra

Hi, the, problem is the english teachers who taught you in the mid eighties are still teaching in 2011 and they still have their regional accent The only difference is now they have conversation teachers (mothertongue) which to me means the teacher isn't good enough so they stick a mothertongue by her side. Back to the uk, I was taught french in middle school (mid eighties) I don't think she was mothertongue , and I knew no better, but here I do know better and its very annoying to have a teacher give your child a low mark when they can't even pronounce th!

Hello Ambra,

if I'm not wrong, most of the foreign language teachers in the UK spent a year living and working in the country of the language they were going to teach. Most of them did this during their 3rd year at university. I don't know if this is still true or not now but I know that my French teachers had all lived in France before teaching. Ideally it was supposed to give them better pronunciation, pick up sayings and expressions and live life in France.

Many English teachers in Italy have never been to the UK, USA or Australia.

When I went to school, in the 40's, our French teacher was French national; our German teacher a refugee from the Shoa. The French teacher ( A M.Antoine) was very hot on correct pronunciation. I can hear him now cracking the desk with his ruler, as he tried to drill 'fauteuil' into us. Our German teacher, known as Benny Goodman, was more interested in teaching us the offside rules of footbal. I didn't do Spanish or Italian then; and honestly can't remember how they went on.
There was definitely Spanish, but I don't rememeber there ever being an option to take Italian.
ciao for now,
'o nonno

Well, I had to do French at secondary school in the UK (late 1980s-1990s) but I opted out at 14. Always English teachers who taught french. Things changed at 14 and a new teacher arrived at the school. She was married to a frenchman and had a bilingual child herself and she suddenly started shouting at us and giving us verb tables to learn by heart whereas, up to that point, we'd been learning phrase and not really needing to think for ourselves. My marks went from A grades down to E grades and I really hated the change and how I didn't feel 'safe' in those lessons anymore and so, when I could, I opted out. I regret it now of course but at the time I never imagined that I would ever need to know French, or any other language for that matter... I think a lot of people in the UK are like that to be honest. I only started learning Italian when I knew we were moving to Italy for my husband's work. It's still not fluent but it's getting better all the time and I can hold conversations and I do understand what's being said but one of the biggest problems I had, personally, was I didn't know HOW to learn a foreign language.

As far as state school teaching English here goes (our experience as a family) it seems pretty dire at the elementary level. My poor son was told he had the 'wrong' accent because his teacher didn't understand his English. I felt quite strongly that this was her deficiency and not his and yet he was made to feel bad about it!! He now speaks in English lessons with an Italian stupid accent which is just wrong! My daughter has fared a little better as her ele teacher sees having her in the class is an opportunity for the class to learn correct pronunciation and she is made to feel that her English is a gift that she can share with the class. Neither teachers could hold a conversation with me in English though. I don't expect them to but it does make me wonder if it's the best way to teach kids English. I've offered free help in any form they would want at the school on more than one occasion but they don't want to know.... My son is getting on better at the Scuola media as his English teacher can speak English (she speaks to me if we need to speak in English -I don't expect it but I think she likes to practice) but the Italian parents are up in arms because their kids are suddenly all getting low marks as she expects higher standards than the teacher at the scuola elementare. There was a huge queue to see her at parents evening this week and everyone seemed to feel that she isn't 'fair' i.e giving 'good kids good marks'.... She was appealing me to persuade my son to start speaking with his own accent so he can help her help the others. It's quite nice to think that our language that, let's face it, all kids need to do here at school, is something positive for a change rather than other teachers seeing it as an negative thing.

My nephew started Italian at secondary school but they dropped the class due to lack of interest. He is now doing Spanish instead. I am sure the teacher is German he said who teaches a variety of languages.My friends kids in Aus are doing Italian with an actual mother-tongue Italian teacher.

I don't agree with this. My husband is Dutch and just about everyone in the Netherlands speaks decent English by the time they finish school. They start learning English at school at age 11-12 and most English teachers in NL are not mothertongue. However, the teachers (like most Dutch people) speak very good English and lessons are conducted almost entirely in English (Dutch kids also generally learn German and French - and the same goes for these languages).

My nieces and nephews in small town Holland (none of whom are the least bit academically oriented -2 left school at 16) can hold their own in a conversation with me in English. None of them have spent much time in English speaking countries or really left their region.

IMO the reason the Dutch English language learning system works so well is a) the English teachers speak very good English and speak only English during lessons b) the kids spend something like 4 hours a week on English c) TV and movies aren't dubbed into Dutch - they're subtitled but most kids don't bother reading the subtitles and learn to understand English instead and d) Dutch people are very practical and they teach English in a very practical manner ie. the kids actually learn to speak the language rather than translating texts into their native language. I still remember tutoring a 14 year old English student here in Italy. I said "hi - how was your weekend?" and the look of absolute panic on her face was priceless. At liceo she wasn't learning to speak the language but rather how to translate English literature into Italian.

I'm Australian and I learnt French at school. Our teacher had lived in France as a young man so I assume his French was decent. I remember that the rule from Day 1 was 'no English during the French lesson' - it was really hard! When I was in my early 20s I finally got to France and I was able to have basic conversations in French and read French. Unfortunately, my French has now been replaced by Italian.

I don't really agree that it isn't possible to learn a language without a mother-tongue teacher, although I do agree that it isn't easy without a good teacher! I learnt French to a decent level at school with only British teachers until sixth form, when we had a really dull middle-aged "assistant" in addition to our normal classes and I don't think I learnt much from her. By the end of school, I probably didn't have the best accent in the world but I could definitely hold conversations in French. I did have the opportunity to go on a couple of exchange trips to France which helped with practice but more in the sense that it allowed me to see that I was able to use French in "real life" rather than teaching me a lot- there's a limit to how much you can learn in 2 weeks.
I do agree though, that teachers should at least attempt to respect the pronunciation of the language! I've read loads of accounts on here of kids being taught to say "bis-cu-eet", etc. As Lorna says, most language teachers in the UK will have spent time abroad-up to a year- as part of their degree (I have a major/minor degree in French and Italian and spent a year in the South of France and a term in Siena). However, they do get you to "learn" another language sometimes when you do your PGCE (teaching certificate). A friend of mine is fluent in French and found herself learning German when studying to be a teacher- thankfully she didn't have to teach it when she got a job as one year studying part-time is nothing compared to having a degree in the language!
I can't say I'm looking forward to my daughter starting school in Italy and going through all that kids such as Indiebirds' have though- then there was the woman on here whose mother-tongue daughter was told by the teacher that she was lying about being able to speak English because the teacher couldn't understand her! Maybe we'll have uprooted to the UK by then, but there is that small matter of a husband who doesn't speak English...

yes that is so true Gelato.. I hadn't thought about that. I too don't think it's about mother-tongue teachers but attitude and exposure to the language. A friend's husband is Swedish and he speaks superb English but he says that they don't dub films and a lot of books etc are not translated. Also a lot of Swedes speak excellent English... this then breeds confidence into the next generation... I have a student at the moment who is really hating my approach to teaching in a practical way. I want him to read English books and newspapers, watch films in english just to get a 'feel' for the language. He's not having any of it. He keeps shoving his grammar book under my nose (everything translated from English into Italian) and saying 'I like study. I will study all!!' but it just isn't helping him improve any....

We just say 'Bis-quit' in our house and it has us roaring with laughter. I often feel rude when helping kids from my son's class as they all say it and I cannot help but smile.... the 'power' of one stupid teacher...

just hope your luck holds when you play the 'teacher lottery'...

I'm a bit nervous about the English teachers when my daughter gets to school age too. Some of the stories I've heard are appalling like kids who speak American English at home being told that American English is 'incorrect' or that while Americans may say biscuit "biskit", the proper British pronounciation is beeesqueet" or somesuch. Funny but not so funny when it's your own kid you're talking about.

A goes to an Italian asilo nido and my only complaint language-wise is that the teachers attempt to speak English with A which is not ideal for her learning Italian since we speak English and Dutch at home. But I don't think they speak much English and I've heard her speak Italian and she's pretty good.

My daughter started here at the Scuola Materna and there was a teacher who could speak very good English who helped her (and me) out. However about a fortnight in, the teacher came to tell me that she translated to Julia what the other teacher had said to the kids and Julia just looked at her and shrugged. The teacher thought for a minute and said it in a different way in case there was something that maybe Julia didn't understand in what she'd said or her English was 'off'. Julia shrugged again. The class assistant looked at Julia still sitting there and not going to the toilets to wash her hands like the rest of the kids and told her to go and do it in Italian. Julia hopped up said 'Arrivo!' and off she went much to the teacher's amazement... they couldn't believe that she refused to do English at school so quickly. After that point they did everything in Italian and so did she. At home she still hates speaking Italian with me. She'll only do it if there are non-English speakers here.... bilingual kids are fascinating to watch though. My friend (she is Italian but has an English hub) was worried that her son was not speaking in English, even though her husband speaks English to him all the time and she speaks Italian. I went and only spoke English with him and his mum and he now speaks to me only in English. He's two.... I've got no idea how it works but it's not how we learn as adults....

I (my kids) have been really lucky with the "fixed position" English teacher at primary school. Chloe has had her for the last five years. Alex didn't have her last year but does now. Most of the kids love her. She smiles, jokes, plays games, teaches them loads of songs, lets them watch little English films sometimes and always dresses up for Halloween. There are loads of posters and things on the wall in the English classroom. Her English is good enough to have a small conversation with me. I have never put her to the test with an in-depth conversation. Chloe tells me that she always speaks to her teacher in English and the teacher understands her and always speaks to Chloe in English.
Chloe has become her little helper and if the teacher asks her to do a little errand like going for photocopies the teacher always asks in English.

Alex's teacher last year was crap and all about parrot fashion teaching.
She knew one of the mothers and said to her one day,

"I've got this kid in class who keeps telling me he's good at English and he already knows his numbers and colours etc. He goes on about how he knows English. What does he know at age 6?"

The mother asked if the boy's name was Alex and when the teacher said "yes" she told her that he did indeed know all that stuff and much much more because his mother is English. The mother couldn't wait to ring me and tell me all about it.

Alex had never mentioned that his mummy is English but the teacher had never bothered to find out why he kept saying he already knew the colours. She just brushed him off as a little kid who was making it up or showing off when he said "Maestra, io conosco già i colori in inglese."

After she found out that I'm English, she basically ignored Alex for the rest of the school year and didn't bother involving him in class. Due to her parrot fashion teaching, Alex basically wated time in English lessons and took them as a break where he never had to really do anything.

Indiebird - thanks for that story. I actually think it's similar with A. Her babysitter turned up the other day and I was heading out. I overheard A (aged 2.5) say "voglio disegnare!" to the babysitter. Just a minute before we'd been chatting in English. So I guess she DOES speak Italian.

I think learning a language is more about the students aptitude to languages. My father in law can hold a very good conversation with me and my English friends and he is self taught from old 33 inch records and a well thumbed dictionary.

I am able to look at engineering drawings and see the object in 3d form in my head with ease. However the bit of my brain for learning a language is not switched on properly it functions as badly as the part that manages my singing... ask my OH.

She cringes when she hears me sing and as a bilingual teacher whose english is better than mine she can not teach me Italian..

However my OH is very very good at singing, and languages she only has to hear the word once and she has it stored including the proper pronunciation.

But no matter how often I show her how to use excel, word or other computer programs she never remembers and when the document wont do as she wants she blames the computer and non existent viruses..

I was taught French at school but in one year we had 6 different French teachers and so learnt squat.


One last think my ex wifes sister has very bad problems with spelling and how to construct a simple sentence. But show her a long till receipt and she can quickly scan and add up the items in her head and give you the correct answer much faster than you could call out the numbers.

We all have gifts, strengths and weaknesses a good teacher is important and helps but if you don't have the aptitude for that subject then you might as well bang your head on a wall.