Daxk

Bravo! Bravo! Gilliana.
My Family especially my 78 yo Mother also live in SA,I have a number of Friends who also live in Durban and Johannesburg.
They cannot get out, have accepted that and are making the best of what they can too.
And yes, I and the majority of people who post "negatively" on this and other fora have experienced first hand the Sa crime wave, and i discount small things such as burgalries,muggings and car thefts which, if done at a remove, is just another price tag.
All of your emotional reasons are good and I could care less wether you and the entire Island of Britain choose to emigrate to SA and make a difference.

A large chunk of South Africans and Permanent residents of SA have left precisily because of that throwaway line of yours and other denailists.
"Yes things are bad but its great Weather/Scenery/the people are Friendly..."
You are minimisingthe very real risk of harm.
The OP on this and other posts asked for advice and experiences.
they got exactly that.
if you get told to read the news, and you dont like what you have been told as it does'nt quite fit with what you want to hear.
Then that is your problem.
I have seen a large amount of people asking the same thing over and over on different forums till they find someone who will tell them what they want to hear.
I hear what you say about living in the UK.Its exactly why, when I had the choice, I chose to live somewhere else,
If you have a problem with where your child is growing up, thats your judgement call.
If you choose to take your child back to SA, Ditto.
but you, typically south African, cannot accept that criticism of the way things are going in SA is not a cricism of you or the majority of Saffas.
People must hate South Africa?? why?/ if I criticise a child or a loved Brother, do I hate them?


Now, I asked you for cold hard fact that SA is a good place for an emigrant to take children to and to raise them there,safely
Not emotional arguements, not scenery, not tourism.

Just cold hard fact as to why you have hope for SA
Can you give me that?

Pablo

You just can't let that go, can you? Dare to criticise and you "hate South Africa". You've really bought into the party line, haven't you. Just like those who dare to criticise Mugabe are "traitors".

As I have said to you twice now, if you criticised the Nazis, it didn't mean you hated Germany. Can't you figure that out?

Your posts read more and more like the cynical emotional blackmail that HomeComing Revolution trots out. You are just a propagandist, and I, I can assure you, am not -- not for anybody's party line.

1066

I think you are mistaken ...... most of the folks on this forum love[d] SA.

The fact that you hear Howzit around every street corner in the UK should tell you that a lot of South Africans have left the country of their birth/adoption, and are looking for greener pastures. They have left for several reasons, but the fact is, they have left.

To love a country is one thing, but to see it go to the dogs is quite another. Until such time as SA begins to address the problems that it faces, or to even admit to the problems that it faces, you will have to accept that people will continue to leave, and criticise, the country that they once lived in.

gilliana

Ok Daxk...

Take into consideration I am a 32yr old single mother with a 7-year old son. My comparisons below are only UK vs SA because UK is the only other country I lived in besides SA.

This is what I consider as a parent. I can only talk like that because all my decisions are based on whats best for my son:

Lets start with Education
yes you need private schooling in SA. And you'll get a good education. In the UK, you need to earn more than what i do in order to afford private schooling. So because my son started at a private school in SA and now attends a state school in SA - i draw my comparison. He is a very able child and he would thrive in a private school. However he goes to a state school now, i wont complain cos he's still young and the infant school is ok. However..parents have kids in SEN (special needs education program)... they get lost in the system. So perhaps not too different from anywhere else.If you want details, I'll give them. But if your child is battling...you have a problem and you do need to invest in a tutor. We dont have access to sports as part of the curriculum except PE once a week for 30mins(PT as i remember), but outside of school hours everything is extra cost. Schools in SA have compulsory 2 sports...1 winter, 1 summer...

Mind you i can spend hours on the education problems here...The best inheritance you can give your kids is a good education. You wont share that mentality here. The majority leave school at 16 yrs with their GCSEs, the minority go onto A-levels to get a university qualification. thats reversed in SA. And in my opinion they start school too young, hence i think the fall in literacy...and then leave at 16.. i had to do a subject choice at 16 and made the wrong move... how can you expect kids and they are just kids... to become adults at 16??

Anyway lets move on...

Health care

Its free in the UK. My son's wart is growing bigger than his head. I go to my free GP, who assesses it, then has to write a referral to the minor-surgery unit... we still waiting for an appointment to have it removed. So i phone good old Dr Malan in Guildford and he'll remove it in the surgery in 10mins. It will cost me £85. I avoid the local gp - not just cause of that incident, but because you go to the doc, you have 7 mins and they diagnose across the room just by looking at you. Sure, we have free hospital care, but you go on a list. And that could take forever depending on your circumstance. In SA, i pay my medical care and i get it. Here, I pay National Insurance and i avoid the state-offered services because its incompetent. My mother went to the same local gp...diagnosed her having flu... she eventually went to a south african doctor Dr Boshoff who diagnosed her with emphysema.... There have been a cumulation of things that make me realise not trust the health system. Oh gosh and there are stories after stories ...just like you have stories i'm sure...

But one very interesting fact.. the UK has the highest rate of natural child births (remember a caesarian would cost too much for the gov) and yet, they have the highest rate of special needs children under the age of 7. There is a connection... you go to a midwife, you dont have the obstetrician, gynae etc that you have in SA..... Patrick my son was born at Sandton Clinic. Best experience ever. Bottom line... i would pay my R2-3k a month and have a real doc-patient relationship and if theres a prob, we'll be off to the hospital and seen to. It doesnt happen like that here. Whenever I go to SA on hols (3x year), the first thing we do is see the doctor for a check up....

Anyway...next subject would be crime:

Fair enough, I've never ever said Joburg is safe and idyllic. But just dont portray it like its soooo bad. The grass is always greener on the other side, only because there's more sh.t.

Like ive said before... i dont let my kid run around like he's in paradise. There are 200 registered paedophiles in our county. We've had attempted abductions near the school, petty theft out the cars... i know you cannot compare it to SA, but can you imagine being in an environment that you think is safe and suddenly your child is kidnapped. So theres this false sense of security in the UK...Our local shop (in a very good area) has a notice up No Hoodies. No, they wont charge at you armed with guns, but there is more of an underlying threat that is very quiet...Now i'm going to say something that may just spark off a whole new argument...but...my son goes to a school where he will mix with the same colour but different class... suddenly he wants to play at Joe, and i meet Joe's mom and she has 4 kids from 4 different fathers... with a cig in her mouth, tattoos over her body and pierced everywhere...my gut response is GULP, we're busy next weekend... maybe another time...

My point is.. here in the UK you dont know who you live next door to, who your kids mix with etc etc...who is on a council benefits (next door) , we just dont have the same values...and they let their kids run riot and i've got to protect Patrick from that...

our house rule... you do not go into friends homes without me meeting/knowing the parents. cos my son will cycle up and down the path next to the woods - he knows not to enter the woods - he knows not to befriend strangers - and he now has a cell phone. i have good British friends who were failed by the system. They prefer to write in capital letters, or type - because they cannot write properly...anyway i can certainly go on forever here.

And the difference in SA... your kids are with you - you braai with friends with children, your kids play and swim till they want to collapse at 8pm. Here, its different... and what happens with the 8months of cr.p weather? I've stood on the football pitch in freezing temps for an hour or so and we go home...neither of us could bear to venture out after that. Now, imagine life when it gets dark at 3.30pm... and temps drop below zero. As a south african, its hard to adjust. There are saffers that of course have adjusted with kids... but its not easy. And you asked for "my opinion".

I'd rather have Pat playing in the garden with like-minded kids/friends while we braai and be with people we click with... he'd go to a private school, have access to sports, and in my opinion a very good standard of education. If our education was so bad, why do we have international students still coming to UCT. I wish i had a crystal ball to see what SA will be like in the years to come, but now i'm going to get emotional and fuzzy - it boils down to attitude and resilience. You could grow up in a slum and emerge an entrepeneur. Why do south africans do so well overseas - its because of our survival instincts....not government dependance. So why wouldnt i prefer my child to have a childhood in SA, than in the UK. Personally, the kids' behaviour is a bit off for me, the manners, the respect blah blah and the kids are taught about human rights at school so suddenly, if you threaten a smack, they want to call child welfare. How pink and fluffy can you get? My kid must never think he can fall back on the dole. I dont want him to ever think like that. And it starts with education.

And hey, I could take Patrick to the London History Museum and be a victim in a terrorist bombing...the threat is higher here than in SA...

I know...in Joburg, you come alone with a child from the Spur and its dark, you are so alert,you could out do a meerkat... its unreal.. But everything else is also very important, you need a bunch of aspects to make a whole. Crime doesnt make a whole. It is a very important and unfortunately necessary aspect to consider in Joburg. Not just crime, but violent crime. But South Africa and South Africans are a different breed with a lot to offer. I would hate any South African who cannot leave SA to read this forum.

gilliana

where do you live Pablo

Daxk

Gilliana,thank you for your honest reply.
Who I am, where I am from and my experiences are all detailed in the introductory thread, as are virtually everyone else here.

I agree with you about the UK from hearsay.
I also have friends who live outside of London in the Country who have schooled children there who might disagree with you, but however.
I repeat: I chose NOT to live in the UK.
I chose to live 3 hours flying time from there,in Ireland,in the Country.
Galway actually.
so lets compare :

Schools:
My daughter would have gone to Kyalami prep, thats where she was booked into,
From there , probably Brescia House or Rodean.
at University, if she was in the top 9% of the White applicants, she would have been able to study whatever interested her.
I was budgetiing for R50k a year plus investments to provide at 2004 rates 1.5 Million SA Rands for Varsity.

My wife and I visited about 20 Schools before we chose one that was similar to what Tammy would have attended.
A Govt School.
Large classes, (26) and the teachers really get involved.
In Arts,(Irish dancing,Drama,Music) and sports every Wedensday afternon on the all weather pitch or Netball Field or track.
Cost E150 a year.
Her High School has had 85% University entrance Passes past 5 years.
Cost,at the moment a donation of E300 a year.
University? whatever she is qualified to do, no discrimination whatsoever, Universities,Galway, Limerick, Trinity College in Dublin if she wishes.
Cost at the moment? E5000 a year.
As a Single parent or Widow, you would get a greater child allowance paid weekly as a grant irrespective of what you earn.

In SA if you were forced to send your child to a state school?

Health Care.
In SA, our top of the line Medical Aid was finished by July the last few years.
Again, if you were forced through circumstance to rely on SA Provincial Hospitals these days?
How would that compare.

Now in those two scenarios you may well say that you would do anything to make sure that Schooling and medical Aid were covered.
I have a very good friend who survived a hi-jacking but got shot through the lung.
apart from the 18 months recovery his career and earnings path are now affected by his health.
How are costs doing in SA for the past few years? are they going to come down?
Here in Ireland , things are also slow in the Hospital Sector.
They do a triage. as they do in the UK and act according to risk.
I have only been to Casualty here twice, and my daughter was seen by a paede at 2 am in the morning who had driven in especially.
Cost? E60 per visit.
Yes, blood tests take 24hours but they are included.
The Health care we have experienced has been as good as the Private Care I had in SA.
But again, thats Ireland, not the UK.

Crime? why dont you subscribe to eblockwatch? its very handy for the family back home and also gives an unbiased report of incidents as they are reported.
Then come and tell me its not so bad.

For the rest, I live in the corner of a 25 acre farm, in a beautiful house that is the same size as my one in Midrand, my daughter and her friends roam the woods and fields, go fishing in the pond at the castle,(tonight we have 11 frogs as houseguest) feed the Horses and the lambs, and yes, there are dangers everywhere, but compare what you allow your son to what you would allow in SA.
Yes, you braai with your friends and children, Birthday parties have at least one Parent per child, my daughter wont visit somewhere unless I know where she is either. but thats no different.

We have far more freedom here than we did in SA.eg, Friday night wife went to a PTA dinner till 2am in the morning, last night she and her sister, having gone for a long walk in te woods in the afternoon, went out for a farewel dinner with their Mom who is going on Holiday.
I had concerns about a flat tyre perhaps.

Who do you live next to?
I know exactly who I live next to, we socialise often, our kids play together, they are nice people.
If I went to live in the cheapest place I could in SA, I'm also sure I would think much of my neighbours if they had a different set off values to me, but hats choices again.
I agree about the resilience thing, those who can, are getting out,

You give a good account of yourself all the way through, and then... tell me, how many people have died in the Terror attacks sofar and you may include the IRA bombing camppaign in the 70's?
less than a week in SA.

Now much as I've enjoyed this, back to the original point.
For the potential emigrant who does not have a large Family or social circle in SA.
Other than Weather and Scenery ,What Facts can you offer to give them hope?

Daxk

Gilliane:"However..parents have kids in SEN (special needs education program)... they get lost in the system. So perhaps not too different from anywhere else.If you want details, I'll give them. But if your child is battling...you have a problem and you do need to invest in a tutor."

You need to actively research Ireland and NZ if your child has a SEN requirement.
My best friend here has two children with Downes of varying severity.
who attend my Daughters school along with other children who have differing special needs.
They ALL have adult "Carers" who spend time with them, assist them, and facilitate for them during the School day.
Paid for by the State and ultimately by the tax payer.
and yes,I pay more Tax here than I was able to deduct in SA, but there's bread in the bread tin, the occassional bottle of Jam and smoked Salmon in season..

Tegwyn

I would like to know why someone that touts the virtues of South Africa, with all the family and friends/support systems would subject herself to living in the UK. After all, in the grand scheme of things, a job can be replaced. Family and friends can't. It sounds to me like Gilliana is not exactly happy with where she is at, and rather homesick.

Bijilo123

People do ask for advice on going to RSA and quickly this focusses on physical danger. My own view is that there is a risk and it may or may not materialise.

I am happy to point out logically that there uis a risk but ultimately I don't give a shiit about people geting shot after taking or ignoring my advice and am happy not being in RSA because of risk and it being a pain in the arse of a country. But all of that is subjective which is why I cannot draw conclusions from anything in the past two pages.

It's risky and I don't care if you get shot - now what are your views- all you have done is woffle on about cycling inthe woods...

gilliana

Tegwyn, its a contract that came up, i'm going home at the end of it. I could've said no - but why? Not every day you get an opportunity to work abroad, expenses paid, job secured, experience difference things, a different life, travel a little but its a life that I do not choose permanently.Maybe I am homesick....is that wrong??
I choose SA and I stated my reasons from my first hand experience. Everyone has had different experiences which is why we make different choices.

gilliana

I dont need to research, I could "woffle" on with facts and figures about whether its a good program or not, my child is not in SEN, I have friends with kids in SEN and they battle - the kids are not coping, the program is not helping them and the parents are turning to tutors for help. So its once again...different experiences...

gilliana

Why would you care - you dont know me.

I gave you my views - my reasons for defending SA here. Where I'm positive re SA, then my logic/perception is skewed. ?? Of course, its subjective... i'm giving an opinion based on experience - not a presentation because I'm a professor in criminology or a minister of welfare

why does it feel like i'm repeating myself

gilliana

Again, there are no schools as you describe anywhere close to where I am.

Re my situation being on a permit, I have no recourse to public funds. But yes, as a UK citizen, you do get that benefit.

gilliana

Ok thanks for your reply Daxk, but I'm not here to offer facts - thats all readily available on the web - people come to forums to get views and opinions of their own experiences and offer whatever advice / tips n tricks etc... First hand experience...

If I was moving to UK, I wouldnt ask an American who had never been here, what is it like. I would ask a British person who had lived there. He may think his country is pooh and now lives in Spain. His ex-neighbour may like UK for xxx reasons and stays in his little mid-terraced home walking his spaniel and can offer other reasons why to live here...The pom who lives in Spain can argue forever with the pom with a spaniel about the terrible medical treatment his son received after being stabbed in the park, the post thats always late, the tough time he's had getting a job, the expense of petrol. The pom with the spaniel could have had a completely different story to tell cos he loved the nurse who looked after him in hospital, his post arrives on time, never had an issue with a job and prefers public transport. But the pom in Spain can quote facts & figures re the NHS and how its going down the tubes, the rknife crime, recession etc etc

I am trying to remove the situation from us because no matter what I say, I will be beaten down for being positive re SA (i refer to all those replying)

I am the pom with the spaniel.

I have a different perception of SA.

btw, just on the state schools...you get rough state schools, and good ones.. here in UK as well as SA. My friends son is at a government school and they happy with the school ... I think its Table View Primary - not sure of the name, but happy to find out for sure. Just giving one example. I cant list every gov school in SA and UK and compare them.

I'll "woffle" and be "subjective" or whatever else i'm accused of on this thread...but although you all have your own reasons for choosing Not to be in SA, your opinions do not represent those of the entire SA population, and neither do your opinions (facts) - this area is becoming grey - represent a completely true picture because all it is, is negative. I should invite my friends to this forum who currently live in Joburg with children...they will agree with you on the security measures you need to take, but I think it'll all go to pot after that...then maybe foreigners will get a more balanced view when looking for advice / opinions on visiting/living in SA.

I'm optimistic about SA, not deluded. We'll make the best of it when we go home, knowing the risks.

gilliana

Exactly - you hit the nail on the head...

You leave the country and you criticise it. Why?

You love(d) it and it saddens you to see it go to the dogs. But you leave and criticise? You do nothing to help the country you once love(d).

Fair enough to state reasons for leaving, but why not encourage the foreign interest in the country instead of scaring the living sh.t out of anyone who enquires...