Harare experiences please!
 

My husband and I are planning on moving to Harare. We lived in Kenya 10 years ago and visited Zimbabwe during that time amongst the Mugabe turmoil.
We've heard that since the US dollar has been introduced things are on the up again and desire to relocate to Africa again but this time with our small son.
I do have some questions.
How easy is it to get a work permit and permission to stay. My husband does IT.
How available is good healthcare and how costly?
Is there malaria in Harare?
Can you wear basic Jewellery like an engagement ring? Go out at night? Crime against foreigners, is it on the increase? Burgularies?
Compare living prices to the UK. Houses to rent, food, car, home tutoring. What would you need? $1000/2000 US per mth.
Are things better than a few years ago.
All experiences would be great please. Good or bad.

Re: Harare experiences please!
 

I'm a Zimbabwean IT professional working in South Africa on a Quota Work Permit :)

The sentence says it all. The salaries are very low. $200.00 per month and so. Things have become stable in Zimbabwe but you can't find work which pays you enough. At this stage, Zimbabwe is a best destination for anyone wishing to open an IT company, not looking for job.

Re: Harare experiences please!
 

Wow that's low.
We figured that starting our own business may be the route to go.
Not sure where to start re business permits though. Tried surfing the net and can't their official website. Any ideas anyone?

Re: Harare experiences please!
 

Zimbabwe immigration laws are not that strict. Permits are easier to get. Most of these permits are obtainable at the port of entry. You will have to pay a fee of course mostly less than R1000.00.

Re: Harare experiences please!
 

I am Zimbabwean born but now living in UK and was there in Dec. I really dont know about immigration so I cant answer that one

How available is good healthcare and how costly?
It isnt terribly good I am afraid, for basic headaches yes its fine but for more serious illnesses and diagnosis people who can afford it go to SA. While standards are poor it is VERY expensive and you have to pay cash upfront for everything. This http://www.cimas.co.zw/ is the biggest medical insurance provider and even with that insurance some doctors still demand some cash upfront.

Is there malaria in Harare?
NO but if you go to other areas outside Harare they may have malaria.

Can you wear basic Jewellery like an engagement ring?
Yes I have never heard of anyone stripped of their jewelery.

Go out at night?
Where to? There isnt many places to go to anyway at night but I wouldnt. The problem is criminals can follow you at night and it tends to be smash and grab at front gates. I still get paranoid being out at night but I know the place very well.

Crime against foreigners, is it on the increase? Burgularies?
Not really unless you live on farms. You just have to be vigilant and know which areas to NOT visit. You dont see many foreigners in the town centre anyway. They tend to go to Samy levy Shopping Centre in Borrowdale which is relative safe. You still need to be vigilant anywhere you go and for ladies that means holding your handbag tightly under arms and avoiding flashing mobile phones. Burgularies are just what you expect but if you can afford £2000 a month you can live in a compound like Borrowdale brook with better security.

Compare living prices to the UK. Houses to rent, food, car, home tutoring. What would you need? $1000/2000 US per mth.
Its VERY expensive, I was terribly shocked by how much everything cost. Food cost will be more than double what you pay in UK. There is no longer any manufacturing in Zim so everything is being imported and so cost more. All the things that you probably like as a Westerner will be deemed luxurious and terribly expensive.

This is a good site for properties rentals http://www.classifieds.co.zw/ and the nicer areas are in Harare North (Mt Plesant, Borrowdale, Newlands, Greystone Park etc)...These areas will set you back at least a £1000 and you need to be aware that quality of housing is very poor. Because of the crisis that happened nobody could afford to renovate so what you get even at this higher end isnt remotely exciting. Make sure there is a borehole and generator because water and electricity are scare in most areas.

Are things better than a few years ago.
YES but still far from being normal

All experiences would be great please. Good or bad.
It is expensive and I mean VERY expensive and much more expensive than UK. pm me if there are any specifics you need. Schools arent great and by any means and the only one I would be happy putting my child into is the American Harare International School but that cost about $15 000p/a. The other local schools were badly affected by the econmy and just the fact they stayed open when the rest closed was enough for parents to clamour for them. These will be around $1 500 per term for day. If your son is in primary then he should be fine and you can always do additional stuff at home. Its the secondaries that scare me a bit. The academic ones are mainly church boarding schools and expats just dont go there. Private schools in Zim arent known to be academic, they do have an edge and concentrate more on extra curriculum.

You need to be terribly brave to live in Zimbabwe, not because of politics unless you are a farmer you will be relatively safe. Its just the day to day life struggles you need to put up with and it can be frustrating and very draining. Water and Electricity are a luxury and even if you have a generator there are times when the petrol isnt available.

I find there is nothing much to do, most activities are social going round to see friends and for expats that means meeting people through embassies etc. There really isnt even what I would consider a good restaurant. Most frustrating, the better ones are closed most saturdays now as they are become wedding venues on sat as they make money that way. There is no way of really explaining the frustrating day to day grind you live with. For example just getting money from a cash machine can be terribly frustrating, a few times we had to drive across town because there was no money in the machines. Customer service is virtually non existant and these little things can make or break your stay.

Finally there arent any jobs in Zimbabwe, you need to look at the unemployment figures. Most expats come with a job normally working for an NGO otherwise forget about looking for a job when you get there. They dont exist. Its that simple. Even if you were to get one, the money will be peanuts and not anything you can survive on as an expat. Locals have their own intelligent ways of making do which you wont be able to on the salary.

I am just interested, what drew you to Harare of all places? You still can live a wonderful life there (in a bubble sort of way) if you have masses of cash.

Re: Harare experiences please!
 

Thanks Sherry that has surely given us food for thought!
My husband's dream is to return to Africa and it's been 10 yrs since we were there and he's itching to return and we thought Harare could be one of the safest and more developed places in Africa to set up home with a child. Do you know any other places?
We actually live in Canada but don't intend to stay. It's not for us. If I need more specifics I'll pm you. Thanks

Re: Harare experiences please!
 

Hi Yve, I'd be interested to hear about your Canadian experience and what pushed you too want to move again, but if you don't feel up to discussing on the Africa forum, please pm me, thanks

Re: Harare experiences please!
 

I guess you don't get to read the news much.

Re: Harare experiences please!
 

Pablo, name another that is comparable, I'll be interested to hear.

Re: Harare experiences please!
 

Comparable to Zimbabwe? You mean political tyranny, government-sponsored death gangs, rigged elections, economic collapse, the complete wrecking of a once prosperous country, graft and corruption passim, state gangsterism, out-of-control HIV infection, zero healthcare?

Yes, that's a hard one. But even by African standards Mugabe has made rather a hash of things.

Re: Harare experiences please!
 

Yes, but that is not the first African country with those issues, of course it's not the country it used to be.
We lived in Kenya and there is way more violence there by our experience, and this is not due to anything political such as farms. Many colonials were targeted and beaten up on a regular basis! It is also very underdeveloped even in Nairobi, no water and electricity was normal, but crime is our concern regarding returning there to live.
We visited Zim when it was listed as an unsafe place to visit and it was hard to find a flight going there, we didn't notice anything particularly dangerous just crazy inflation and we had the best holiday we've ever had. We went into the rurals and met locals too. We all know things went downhill but things are supposed to be on the up. Albeit slowly, but that is to be expected. We are not going to automatically dismiss a country just because of it's political past and we do not go by just what the media says. We all know what propaganda does.
We are interested in the day to day living, and living amongst the local people who we found extremely friendly.
If the country has an infrastructure which is now comparable to Kenya and crime against foreigners (unless you're a farmer) is still relatively low then this is what we're interested in.
Cost of living is the surprise, but we'll see what we may do about that.

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Yes, you should go. See for yourself. I know you talk about "supposed to be on the up" but of course that is precisely the kind of hearsay you don't need. No, you need to be there.

So go. No good bleating and speculating about what-ifs and trying to cling on to your Western lifestyle. Go and make it happen. Cost of living? Then just economise. Live like the friendly locals. If you have to rough it a bit, that's part of the package, eh?

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I asked for experiences not media related info otherwise I'd be looking on another website and seeing as you are neither Zimbabwean nor relating any personal experience from living there I do not see how you could have freedom of speech in this thread.
As for living amongst the locals and roughing it a bit we'd have no issues with that. We did it in Kenya, we roughed it a lot and not one of our friends were Expats or colonial decendants and we lived in a place that many a westerner would never live. When we live in a place we like to mix with the locals, and intend to do the same in Zim. But one still needs to know how they can make their daily bread. So don't get heated up about what you don't know!

Re: Harare experiences please!
 

Zims would not be the place to start over as it is by far more deficient in basics than what you found in Kenya. Still a politically volatile place. You will find the same thing in Zambia but it is a bit more stable these days. Botswana is fairly stable but again, you are going back to basics. South Africa is another option and one I personally would not consider anymore. My hubby just returned from a trip to Zambia and Joburg ( I still have family there) and he was very happy to plant his feet back on American soil. As an aside, I don't care too much for Canada either and had lived there for two years. I travel to Toronto every two weeks and I can't wait to leave either. We are hoping hubby's company doesn't try and move us there permanently as it is the last place I want to be. Much prefer the States.

Re: Harare experiences please!
 

Have you thought about what kind of future your small child may have? Mixing with locals sounds great and looks nice when you see travel programs on the TV, but is that the culture you want your child to grow up in?
OK, one day Mugabe has to die, but even if a miracle were to happen and the country was able to revert to its pre Mugabe days, having a place like Zimbabwe on your CV doesn´t count for much when you´re looking for a decent job somewhere else and you should bear in mind that maybe your child wont want to stay in Zim when he becomes an adult.

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Thanks we'll keep that in mind.

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Just out of interest, a few years back now, I wondered about returning to Zim as I had lived there in " the good old days" before Mugabe, and found it to be the nearest thing to paradise. However I had to leave because of the terrorism problems at that time. A friend of mine, who I think is still there, recommended that I didn´t even set foot in the country as a tourist as he said it had got so bad. I think he was right, as I needed to to bring myself back to reality, and rather live with the wonderful memories I have than to visit the place and feel so disillusioned. I do believe there´s a lot of money to be made living in Angola, but once again, not with any children. Good luck

Re: Harare experiences please!
 

Thanks

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Agree with dfjordan... I grew up in ZIM, also before the rogue Mugabe arrived - it was heaven back then, yes... it was most definitely the closest thing to paradise! I am very close to friends still living there who are plagued daily with shortages and problems. Even the crematoriums cease to operate as they run out of gas and bodies pile up as they wait for the next delivery of gas. Or you can pay $600.00 and have the body shipped to another part of the country with a working crematorium.

Power cuts, water cuts, pot holes, no street lights and no traffic lights that work are the norm. Shops are fairly well stocked, but everything is very expensive.

Do go and have a look before you do anything. If you really have your heart set on moving to Africa, consider taking a look at South Africa. It also has its problems and safely issues but you may enjoy it more. I have friends and family there living a good life - if you can live with the crime. Best of luck.

Re: Harare experiences please!
 

hi yve i have to travel to harare on business but im wary of travelling there could you let me know if you have managed to make it there if so wat was it like. and is there any advice you could give me b4 i go there

Re: Harare experiences please!
 

We haven't moved there yet, we are still thinking about it. We should be going for a visit in the spring and then I'd have a better idea.
Sorry can't have more info as yet.

Re: Harare experiences please!
 

As above. I was there about a year ago - Harare and Bulawayo - on business. Things have improved quite a lot from the depths they plumbed before they converted to the $ US, but I really couldn't recommend it. I remember the country in "the old days", although I'm not Rhodesian/Zimbabwean. It's still beautiful, and it's more relaxed than SA, but there are still a lot of problems. No-one is sure what will happen when Mugabe goes. I interviewed some local businessmen and journalists and they were, shall we say, a bit apprehensive.

I have a close friend in SA with a brother in Zim. He stayed, and doesn't plan to leave, but I get the impression he's well connected and has a pretty good life.

FWIW, violent crime is less prevalent, and less murderous, than in SA.

Re: Harare experiences please!
 

I lived in Canada for 23 years (after moving from South Africa) and never cared for it either would you believe. What about an alternative to Zimbabwe in Latin America or the Caribbean where you can have a similar lifestyle. Many Europeans and North Americans move to places such as Argentina, Uraguay, Mexico, Dominican Republic, Panama, etc.

Re: Harare experiences please!
 

I think it speaks volumes about the situation in Zimbabwe that millions of Zimbabweans have fled to SA, the UK etc. Surely that has to tell you that something is badly wrong! to take a child there seems to me incredibly irresponsible and reckless.

Re: Harare experiences please!
 

We took the plunge, visited end of last year for a month and are planning our move this autumn.
We loved it!
Everyone has to see Zimbabwe for themselves.
No place is perfect, and it has some positive aspects.

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Congratulations. Not been in Zimbabwe since the late 80's when Harare was comparable to a European city...almost. I lived in Mozambique at the time, so anywhere slightly more developed looked like heaven.

Good luck in your adventure, though I can't say I envy it.

Re: Harare experiences please!
 

Good on you Yve, I can see why you are doing it.

Out of interest how do you plan to make a living in Zimbabwe? That's what most of us are scared of.

Re: Harare experiences please!
 

Good luck, I lived there last from 2008 to August 2011. Ignore the likes of Pablo and his hatred, but do take note of some of the more important comments that have been made. My advice:

Health care, forget Cimas you should sign up with Northern. They have a much better record of paying back claims and gave some very good doctors on their list. PM me if you want a GP recommendation. You cannot take a risk with healthcare, at all.

Schooling, you will by now I am sure know of the best schools, not just International but St Johns. Outside you have Peter house and Ruzai as well.

Areas to live, as much as you think you might want to be in a certain area for whatever reason, there is in Harare only two reasons now to pick a place to live - Zesa (electricity) and a borehole. Do not compromise on those two things, you will regret it. Make sure you check out the areas where the Ministers live, fewer power cuts and you will find if a junction blows it will get replaced far quicker.

Safety, to be honest Harare is not bad compared to many Africa cities and certainly nothing like SA. But still realise that what ever you do, you will be the victim of petty theft. Realise it sooner so you do not get upset about it.

Cost of living, I do not think it has changed,much in the last 10 months, my fiancees family and many friends are still there - it is a fair bit higher than you might expect. Some food items locally produced are shockingly double the cost of the imported ones. There is such a small market in reality for luxury foods that prices are not competitive especially as Spar has a monopoly on the market. Fuel is cheaper than the UK but that is about it unless you are going to live on bottled coke. I reckon we spent around £1500 a month on living expences not including fuel for generator and rent as we owned a house.

Jobs, you mentioned IT well it completely depends what you are going to do. Two good ways would be to be a consultant if you have the qualifications to Telecel or Econet the phone companies. Also if you have means, inport export and get contracts to supply embassies and NGOs. I did this successfully mainly for the reason many Zimbabweans working in the sector do not understand European and International expectations. If you can get past that, there is plenty of work, you just need to make the contacts.

PM me if you have any questions or if you need Company set up advice, accountant advice etc.

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...Hatred of tyranny and lies, and of spinning boosters who seek to deceive others, often concealing their own monetary vested interest.

Aren't you the same person who was predicting the land of milk and honey in Zimbabwe just before the last bloodbath? The one who turned out to be promoting his own business?

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Ah more Pablo nonsense, if you disagree just lie and slander.

No Pablo, I have not ever promoted my business on here. For starters my business in Zimbabwe was aimed at NGOs, Embassies and Internationals - not Expats who have left!! I had run ins with you because you know nothing about what Zimbabwe is like now, you simply keep spouting the same nonsense again and again.

If you want to remember facts, I am the guy who arranged for the female reporter who used to be on here to go to Harare over the elections in 2008 who also said she had no issues and was surprised at how welcoming it was.

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Where's the lies and slander? You say you're not that person, then glad to hear it, because that person had the moral stamp of those who deny, for personal gain, the existence of the Nazi death camps.

I don't think anyone seeks to deny that Zimbabweans are often welcoming. However, that has hardly been the central question over the past years when it comes to what has been going on in Zimbabwe.

I don't recall what the female reporter's analysis of the political situation was, if indeed she attempted one. Many others however were at the time covering the violence, political rape-as-terror tactics, the starvation, political violence, torture and economic collapse. Perhaps, when your female reporter said she had no 'issues', she failed to look. Even the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is hardly a right-wing extremist, has noticed 'issues' in Zimbabwe.

Is the BBC still banned from reporting on the 'issues'?

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About 15 years ago i went to South Africa and lots of Zimbabweans were their they said the economic situation was terrible, and the only plus point was mugabe did not tolerate crime. (except against farmers)

And therefore it was much safer to walk the streets in zimababwe.

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Well the lie would be accusing me of being the person who you had obviously had an issue with for promoting some business thing on this website. Where as in fact you were wrong. I was someone who actually lived in Zimbabwe and simply seeked to show what it was really like, which is a far truth from your lies.

Remind me, when were you last there? In the country that you claim to know so much about?

Which was not what the OP was asking about, nor did she seek opinions of the media viewpoint of Zimbabwe. I assumed that the OP would have at least a smattering of knowledge about the recent Political history.

The OP asked what Zimbabwe, specifically Harare was like to live in at the current time. I answered that as I have lived there very recently, with facts and examples. You didn't. Remind me again, when did you last live there? In the country you claim to know so much about?

"My reporter" - actually an Independent reporter who got published on the BBC, but never mind the facts eh? What next? I'm a Zanu-PF stooge who hired a reporter to make a story about Zimbabwe being lovely and I seek to advertise it by going on Expat websites?

Zimbabwe is very simple -if you do not seek to farm or be involved in Politics in any way you are perfectly safe. As a tourist going to Hwange or Vic Falls you would not notice any problems at all, certainly not now the US$ is used as the official currency. If you live there you will find a community of probably 3000-5000 NGO's, Embassy workers and Internationals who are working and living quite happily in the city. There is a varied nightlife (not obviously anything like the West) but at Sam Levy's Village alone there are 5 bars now. There are plenty of restaurants ranging from Thai to Italian to Chinese to Indian to Pub food. Contrary to what someone else has said here, having Zimbabwe on your CV as an International actually gives the impression of being able to adapt, something that when moving countries (this is an expat website right?) is invaluable.

But I am also a realist, you do have to be cautious and you do have to understand the fallbacks. I mentioned Healthcare strongly in my previous post and I could also say the weakness of the Police Force and it's corruption should you ever get into any trouble could be a issue. Personally if I was in the OP's shoes, I would NOT go to Zim. Why? Because she said she had a child of school age. That to me is not going to be advantageous to the kid as he/she won't have the Western advantages that their parents are forsaking for their dream. If you don't have children to worry about health and education wise then Zimbabwe is a great place to experience for a few years. You really won't have too many issues, but if you have kids you should really think about how they will be able to get on there.

Re: Harare experiences please!
 

I think you'll find that was a question, which you presumably, in your eagerness to launch into your self-referential tirade, failed to read.

See what I mean?

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Yes Pablo, you are correct. Always and in everything. Happy?

Great - are you able to give any particular advice to the OP regarding the question of living in Harare now in the present day? If so I'd be glad to discuss that with you, I'm not interested in taking this thread off topic. If you want to start a thread on the pro's and con's of Zimbabwe politics no problem, send me a link and I'll be there. You will probably be disappointed though as you would find I would agree with you in most things and there wouldn't be much of an argument. Although after Mujuru was killed last year my opinion which is shared by a fair few is that at the moment Mugabe staying in power comes under "better the devil you know, than the devil you don't".

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Then why drop in your foolish comment at the start: "Ignore the likes of Pablo and his hatred"? Did you lose control of yourself?

So please don't come over all prim and proper and self-righteous now.

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Perhaps because your second comment on the thread was: The fact the OP had to plead with you to stop kind of makes me think I'm not the only one.........

Have you ever sat back and thought for just a second that perhaps commenting so aggressively on a situation that you do not (by your own admission) know about from personal experience is not helping the OP?

I'm not being self righteous. When I first came here you and Campbell took every thread off track about anyone wanting to go to SA or Zim. Many people simply want to ask questions that are unrelated to the media, about real day to day experiences in these countries. This website gives them the chance to and you decide for some unknown reason to refuse to give them that chance. Perhaps instead of choosing which of my posts to answer you'll answer the whole post - why others should not be allowed to ask the questions they want to ask in peace and get answers from those who are on or have been on the ground recently?

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Clearly you're on a mission today, aren't you. But I think you'll find it is others, not me, who seek to censor criticism and demand that comment should be suppressed.

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You're cherry picking of my words to suit yourself is laughable and childish. Either contribute or leave others to. Criticism is fine when constructive, I think you'd find it hard to find anyone who agrees your words fall under that category. Go away or answer my whole last post - if you have the ability to construct the sentence.

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You quote my words about the tyrant, his tyranny and his crimes, and accuse me of hatred. Well yes, I do hate those things and I despise those who seek to airbrush them away.

But to suggest, as you seem to suggest, that I hate the OP is nonsense. The OP made it pretty clear that she was not concerned about the tyrant and his works, or perhaps regarded them as non-existent. She just wanted to know about the mechanics of living/surviving in that country.

My personal view is that it is not possible to live for long under such a corrupt regime without ending up corrupted and debased oneself. Some are forced to, which is another matter. Your view on this question may differ. So may the OP's.