Daz968

Hi all, I have introduced myself on the relevent thread...so here goes my (initial) question.

I may be offered a position in J'burg. I know the issues regarding security etc and have been lucky up to now in all my visits. On all my visits I also go out cycling in the early hours with friends around the suburbs and at the various dams in the weekend.

Given the choice I'd rather live in the Cape, but beggars can't be choosers!

I enjoy the SA lifestyle and if I can live there earning (and spending I hasten to add) GBP then so much the better.

I am looking to live in a secure apartment / town house compound. My place of work will be OR Tambo so I will be commuting to there. I don't have (or intend to in the near future) have kids.

I know there are many arguments about security - as I have said, I have been lucky and not experienced anything bad and speaking to my frinds in J'burg - you eaither accept it and enjoy the benefits of the lifestyle (when you can) or don't come / leave.

So basic questions:

1. Is it REALLY that bad (as some of the threads here seem to indicate) and I understand and completely empathise with oses that left because of 1st hand experiences of terrible things.
2. If I did decide to come out - where should I live? I understand that outside the N1 / N3 power / water issues are worse??

Thanks all and I wish you all a safe, happy 2008

Redlippie

Here is a map showing Joburg suburbs.
http://www.sa-venues.com/maps/gauteng_johannesburg.htm

Due to the horrific traffic over there, I'd maybe try for Bedfordview, fairly upmarket and close to the airport.

I don't know what your financial situation will be, but if not there, the best bet would be the Sandton area, as you could hop onto the concrete highway (though you'll soon learn the back roads). I don't suggest you go for the Norwood, etc..areas as they are fairly close to Alexandra with all its problems. Randburg to the east (Cresta etc..) will be too much of a commute).

And yes. It is as bad as we say. Those who live there are used to it and barely even pay attention. They're inured to it due to having to live with it every day.

SeaninOzalready

mate all I can say is good luck.

When I was a carefree student I also felt lucky and bulletproof. Going out till all hours with mates on the piss and thinking nothing would ever happen to me. Mind you being in two bank holdups as an 8 year old will live with me forever.

The day they took my first car from me will also endure till my dying day. nevermind that I had worked my guts out as a student to save for it (nothing flash mind you). Red light at night and I stupidly stopped- AK47 at the window (even if I would have put foot I would have died). Motioned as trained to do keeping my hands visible I opened the door and got out.

They pushed me to the ground and started to kick me calling me a 'white dog' and saying I would die very easily. Also took my phone and wallet- imagine being stranded in Joburg with no money and no car/phone after being kicked in the ribs such that they broke three of them.

Imagine that click of steel against your head and seeing your life flash before you- I have been there three times in my life (knowing that your life is in someone elses hands) and mate it aint no joke..

Still have nightmares 10 years on.... That ghost will haunt me forever.

Goodluck..

Daz968

Thanks guys.

I don't have the job yet, but I am anticipating a very reasonable contract - looking at the cost of renting, I could afford a Sandton apartment. I will check out Bedfordview as well. It will only be a 1 - 3 year contract - but you only need 2 seconds to be in deep doo-doo.

I am having nagging doubts, though. Shit - SA is such a great place in so many ways, I really need to weigh up the risks. As everyone says - it's a pure lottery. No matter where you live or how careful you are.

My dreams of great weather, lifestyle, learning to fly, running the two oceans and the comrades, going on the bike tours, getting into the Africa beat - is it a dream too far?

Only I can answer that. I know for sure - as I have been offered already, I won't to Iraq. I could have an opportunity in Dubai - but it just ain't Africa.

guest5234

If you are young and single...go for it just watch where you go and just be aware of the risks, untill you want kids and settle down it is a great Country, but do try and get to Cape Town.

SeaninOzalready

Mate why don't you go to Oz. Same kind of lifestyle and they are crying out for qualified workers here. You can have the sun, sea and surf without all the shi%te.

You said it- it is a lottery. Plus if you really want to do the Two Oceans and Comrades, you still can from the UK. Just do a fly in and fly out..

Daz968

Thanks for your responses, chaps.

I am not emigrating to SA for life - it's just for a few years contract.

I will work anywhere in the world (except Iraq, Somalia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Zim, Kenya, Burma and probably a few other places that I can't remember).

The UK will always be my home and I will keep property in the UK as my long-term pension for wherever I may settle. I am 45 (not single), worked hard and enjoy the work opportunities that come my way.

If I got a contract in Oz (or better still, NZ) I would be off like a shot. But my current opportunity is SA - specifically Jo'burg. The Cape would be better (I know its a better place - been there many times).

Hence the questions - what's it really like and where would be the best place to live in Jo'burg?

sa2oz

Personally I would keep the travelling to and from work shorter and not bother with Sandton etc. The highway gets really messy from 7am to 8pm. You can spend an hour each way from there in the car on a bad day. From the airport travelling west take Barabara road offramp, cross the highway and left into the east side of Edenvale at Macdonalds. About 5 to 10 min or so.

Edenvale has several secure apartment complex areas/ townhouse places on the east side closer to the airport. It has a good gym there, a cycling club and a few good pubs and restuarants and take aways. There is a new shopping centre near the N1 I am told is bigger than Eastgate and looks that way on Google earth. Lots of smaller closer places as well

Modderfontein also has a secure townhouse complex that is really beautiful because it has a lot of smller roads and a stream running through it.
The west side near the N3 (Glendower Dowerglen) has a great golf course, but there was a high level of break ins. Go to the police station and they used to have a map with the pins indicating crimes. They will give you a look at it and it becomes very clear where to go and where to avoid.

Bedfordview is great, I grew up there but the traffic onto the freeways was getting ugly even a few years ago. The roads have all been setup to limit traffic through the suburbs, with speed bumps and . Traffic from JHB to the airport was using Bedfordview as a main route because the roads were good

Kepton Park is on the North and West and there are secure upmarket places but not as well setup. South and West is Benoni. My brother reckons its safe there but its a bit small town for me.

Daz968

Thanks Sa2Oz - very helpful information. I agree - rather travel less. Looks like Edenvale is a good shot!

name_already_in_use

Hi.
Just HAVE to jump in here. I personally think edenvale sux. Edenglen (a suburb of edenvale is a much better option - although still not the best. - can't be beaten for location though if you're working at OT Airport.)
You might also want to consider midrand/centurion. --- yes very far if you travel the the N1 - N3 - N12 route to work. But as I remember there are very good traffic free back roads to get from Midrand to the Airport on the old pretoria road. (I think thats what it's called.)
I have to agree with someone else here, that if you are going for a contract and will be earning GBP's then GO - FOR - IT.
I've been living and working in the UK now for 5 years. I go home EVERY year for at least 3 weeks or more because I miss the country and its people and family very much and I have no rose-tinted delusions about the place. I'm as negative as most ex-saffers and yet am still thinking to return home one of these days. Despite the dangers of living there.

whalewatcher

Why include India in that list? I wouldn't hesitate to take it out and replace it with South Africa.

Daz968

Hi whalewatcher - India is a great magical place and in terms of safety - obviously should not be included in that list. I'd happily work there for a shorter contract.

This is now totally off subject but thought I'd start the debate anyway.....

I am contradictory and hypocritical in my reasons for wanting to work / not work in many places of the world. India is great but makes me sad because of the outright poverty of the huge percentage of the population - and you think apartheid / tribal issues in SA is bad? I am sure you are aware of the caste system in India. Can you imagine the discussion in an SA job centre - What's your tribe? Pedi - right, ok you can sweep the street, etc etc. The funny thing, is India, their culture (pretty much) just gets on with it. I am not saying that is correct - it isn't. But they accept it. In SA (well Africa generally - and come to think of it parts of the middle East and Pakistan as well, now) if you're in the wrong tribe and it all kicks off - bullets, machetes get thrown about and general lack of everyones freedom to 'just be' is denied.

IMHO - I don't agree or condone with the method but it works, so please hear me out - look at Iraq, was it a safer place for those who lived with Saddam or without? Everyone knew their place - trouble was there were the disadvantaged who were oppressed (and worse). Same story all over the world (with varying levels of oppression). Law and order coupled with respect of the same and of individuals. Throw in some religion for good measure and things are a little more stable. Yes I am lucky because I was born in the UK - it's easy for me to peer over the fence, take a sniff and go back to my 'freedom'. I have a choice - others don't.

In SA, it was correct to remove apartheid - but with it's removal, so went law, order and respect for authority and honesty. Some sort of weird mix of Marxism and Anarchy seems to have sprung up, with a touch of Fascism thrown in. Unfortunately, the ignorance of the many outweighs the logic and reasoning of the few, so until that balance is resolved, things will never change in SA - if ever.

Fact: History will repeat itself (Rhodesia) and there will always be occupiers, workers and outcasts (black, white, muslim, christian whatever - they will all fit across that matrix). I wish it was an equal world where everyone had food on his plate a place to sleep and a reason for living - but it ain't. There will always be varying degrees of that as well (inequality) Yes, I am saying that from my glass tower and I hope that I don't die a miserable death. I am just being being honest.

Equal rights for everyone (sorry, more equal rights for the previously oppressed) just doesn't work. You get anarchy and even more injustice. Are the majority of previously oppresed people in SA happier / safer than in apartheid days - I dunno - but I doubt it.

I have been priveliged to work all over and have seen with my own eyes poverty and politics in India, China, Philippines, Egypt and Africa. I don't close my eyes to it - quite the contrary as I have done charity work to help in some of these areas.

But after saying all of that, in my own selfish way - I just feel that SA has more to offer me personally and I want to enjoy a part of it while I can and before it gets destroyed forever. Even though it is a crazy mixed up country.



AND FINALLY - THESE ARE JUST MY PERSONAL OPINIONS AND I MEAN NO INJURY TO ANYONE FROM MY REMARKS. BUT AM VERY HAPPY TO HAVE CONSTRUCTIVE DISCUSSIONS AROUND THE SAME - BUT IT SHOULD BE ON A DIFFERENT (NEW) THREAD.

Sleepwalker

Hi Daz,

Another option to consider, is Fourways/Lonehill on the northern side of Witkoppen Road. There are many routes that lead up to the Krugersdorp R28 Highway... This does a semi-circular route running from Krugersdorp past the South Side of Pretoria/Tswane through Centurion and several other suberbs I cant remember and finally Straight into OR Tambo Airport..

Some may Argue that this is the long way round... in terms of distance it is by at least 15-20 miles.. In terms of Time I believe it would be a little shorter and a lot less frustrating.. It only gets congested on the bits near Pretoria & Centurion.. depending on the time of day and the direction you'll be travelling in. If you work a normal 8-5 job then you should be OK going in and coming home will be a bit slow ... but nothing like the "Gridlock" of the Concrete Highway or Witkoppen Road.. (Reputed to be the busiest Highway interchange in the southern Hemisphere.. )

Believe me being stuck in that type of gridlock is not good for the soul!!

I lived within walking distance of the Concrete Highway Gridlock started happening at 7am and ended at around 9:30am (so much for rushhour!) During that same time period it nomally takes 45minutes to and hour to travel 3miles down Witkoppen road just to get onto the Concrete Highway! No kidding.
It was faster walking to work!

As a quick caviat, I must warn you that many cyclists in the Fourways area have been knocked off the bikes by Taxis that essentially rule the roads and are a law unto themselves... So I recon you should first to a couple of 'reconosance' runs by car before you saddle up and ride your little carbon fibre pony..

As a couple, around 1500 pounds will probably have you living like kings.. although it is after all a matter of personal taste... In your positon I'd definitely buy an old beat up car and keep a relativly low profile till you learn the 'provebial ropes'.

All the best with the venture, pleasecome back safely,

MM

Devonfamily

All I can add is - I grew up there and went back in June/July 07 for a few weeks to see family! Could not wait to get back onto SAA and head back to Heathrow!

I think you would be crazy to go there - you put your life in your hands 24/7. I felt in constant fear of being hijacked while I was out there. The place has become so run down and neglected. Half the street lights and traffic lights don't work - roads are not maintained. The taxi's drive wherever they want to & a RED light means nothing to them - they will just go straight through - not giving a damn for the life of others on the road.

My advice is read the daily news papers online at www.iol.co.za. and you can see for yourself just by reading their own newspapers what goes on there on a daily basis - and that is just a minute inch of the crime, rape, murders, hijacking, corruption that goes on!

IMHO I think you'd be crazy!

The reason we joined this Forum as a family - is that we are possibly looking at now Immigrating to Aussie - due to the climate. Am sick of the British winters and want to live somewhere that has a "future" for us and our children, and sunshine.

Good luck

Marion

Sleepwalker

Hi Marion,

I'd just like to point out that this move is not permanent (1-3 year Contract paid in Pounds) and that he is already aware of all the potential dangers...

...The UK is not that safe either, though by no mean stretch of the imagination can I even begin to compare it to the War Zone that SA has become.
(...I was assaulted in London the week before Christmas during a botched mugging...Had nothing on me,.....old habits die hard!)

If he takes the opportunity, he and his wife will be able to live like royalty on less than 2000 GBP and still be able to saves loads of money... which I geuss is one of his big motivators aside from the good things that SA does have to offer...at such low prices too!!

You mentioned Moving to Ozz.. Have you also explored the posibility of New Zealand. It's a beautiful country but does not have as warm a climate as Oz..

Enjoy the rest of your weekend,

Michael