African Crisis
 

just came across this website: http://www.africancrisis.org/Home.asp

I´ve never been in South Africa and can´t assess whether the information
on this site is authentic or not.. But if it is, then anyone wanting to
emigrate to SAR must be a nutter... uuuuurrrrrrgggghhhhh!!!!

Re: African Crisis
 

When you've finished reading all the negative reports on South Africa try reading some positive ones. Like any country South Africa has some good points and some bad points:

http://www.sagoodnews.co.za/search/quick_stats/

Re: African Crisis
 

All a bunch of bullocks that came off the Homecoming Revolution site when it first started, and has been disproven over the years.

pdohr, everything and more.

I posted a thread last week. The Vice President of S.A. last week told people that S.A. has learned much from Zimbabwe on how to get rid of commercial farmers. She might as well have said that this is a sure-fire way to plunge the country into civil war, bringing famine, basically, as that is what it amounts to in the end.

Re: African Crisis
 

Izibear, you're extremely tiresome, everyone knows that if a country was in as bad a situation as you always make out then there would be no foreign investment, people wouldn't travel there as tourists and South Africans living abroad wouldn't go back and visit their families. Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but when you sound like a scratched record and don't offer a balanced opinion you're just not being realistic.

Yes there is a crime issue (predominantly in the townships), yes there is an AIDs issue and yes it might be difficult for a white male without good skills or qualifications to get a job. How "rosy" is the USA?

Re: African Crisis
 

...No, that just doesn't follow.

Pablo

Re: African Crisis
 

...meaning?

Re: African Crisis
 

Ok, let's pick it apart. But before we do that let's note that "everyone knows that..." does not constitute an argument. Furthermore, it is manifestly untrue, since presumably you do not believe that Izibear, for example, knows what you claim everyone knows.

Your argument, such as it is, also presupposes that the "bad situation" a country might be in is known by everyone - and not, for example, concealed, either deliberately or by chance.

So a foreign investor, or a tourist, may well have a false opinion. They may, in other words, be conducting their foreign investing, or tourism, out of ignorance of the true facts.

So what matters is to establish what the true facts are. But let us say that I, or you, know what the true facts are. That does not mean that everyone will be in possession of those same true facts.

So we need to find out for ourselves - not by being browbeaten by claims that "everyone knows" x, y, or z, but by investigating the facts. We may then disagree about the facts, or their relative importance, but then that can be discussed, no?

Quite apart from that, you will find investors and indeed even the occasional tourist going into the most appalling tyrannies. What does that prove, other than that there might be a fast buck to be made by a wily or corrupt investor, or an interesting sight to be seen by an ignorant tourist?

My experience of tourists is that the popularity of a place as a tourist destination doesn't have much to do with the viability of that place as a country. In general the tourist's only concern is for his personal safety. As long as he feels (rightly or wrongly) that he is physically safe from harm, he will not concern himself with the wider questions of, e.g., agricultural policy, economics, social issues in his chosen destination.

I have never seen Izibear claim anywhere that tourists to SA have 100% probability of violent death, or that no foreign investor can ever make money for himself.

Pablo

Re: African Crisis
 

...exactly... so if you refer back to how this thread started and see exactly what I said, you'll see that I was offering an alternate view on South Africa, the positive view rather than the negative. And as you rightly point out, for less informed to make a fair judgement of a country they need to read several views... so go rant at someone else!

Re: African Crisis
 

What matters is not whether the view is "negative" or "positive". What matters is whether the view is correct, no?

Anyway, I'm glad you agree with me, and I'll ignore your silly ending comment "go rant at someone else."

Pablo

Re: African Crisis
 

Pablo, I've found that apologists for the new and not improved S.A. would rather throw ad hominens around than actually discuss the facts.

Throwing up a list stating that S.A. has one of the top telescopes in the world, or that Stellenbosch developed a microsatellite will surely resolve S.A.'s huge problems which are all courtsey of the current administration and the sheeple who are letting themselves be led to the slaughter.

Re: African Crisis
 

I think you all may be missing something.
We all know SA has its problems but if you click on the link at the beginning of the post and see some of the other claims/observations made on the site specifically about "blacks taking over the US" I would be inclined to take anything from that site as gospel!

bruce.

Re: African Crisis
 

I have been reading African Crisis for around 2 years now and have often forwarded news articles from sites such as the BBC or British newspapers.

The website manager generally insists on URL's so that he can verify the article himself. In the unusual event of publishing something incorrectly he has always stated that fact.

As Izibear stated sites such as SAGoodnews and Homecomingrevolution are nothing more than ANC rubbish.

When Homecomingrevolution had a forum similar to this one encouraging people to return they soon shut it down because SAfricans themselves....not the newspapers were telling it like it is.

Literally every second or third story was one of rape, murder, hijacking or people losing their business to AA.

Re: African Crisis
 

You make a good point about HomecomingRevolution. It attracted a good deal of interest when it started up. As you say, it had a discussion forum. This forum was moderated. I stress this, because even with a *moderated* forum the discussion was deemed to be too "negative" and the forum was closed down.

It has lately become so superficial as to be ludicrous, and I cannot suppose that even people who are planning a return to SA can find it useful.

After a certain point of censorship (e.g., HomecomingR, or the Zimbabwe Herald) the supposed "good news" becomes as revealing as what is hidden or censored.

Pablo

Re: African Crisis
 

I have just been in email conversation with the owner of The African Crisis site and told him about our discussion over here.

He never realized the the HCR (Home Coming revolution) Forum had been pulled and is very interested to have a discussion about this.

In regards to HCR Forums…..when the new sponsored version appeared it included a moderated discussion forum. It started off with all the sentimental *I miss home and come back it isn’t that bad* bullshit…..

Frankly from what I remember it was like dangling a red rag to a bull….

Literally hundreds of furious expats from different countries bombarded the site with all the reasons why they left and why they would never return. The forum clearly became a total contradiction and a major liability to the HCR sites its existence.

Apart from the usual crime stories I remember there being some *severely pi**ed off* people in various businesses who were obviously suffering under new AA/ BEE legislation and were in the process of leaving or had left SA.

They wrote extremely damming and damaging stories at times bordering on the slanderous. Many of them accused the HCR of not telling the truth about the situation in SA and stated that it was irresponsible for such a site to exist in the first place.

Re: African Crisis
 

Yes indeed. I recently put some of these questions in an email to HCR, and was told, blandly and fatuously, that they "reserve the right to say what they want", and that they aim to disseminate what they regard as good or positive news.

All well and good, one might suppose, but their tactics, in many cases, remind one of those predatory Christian evangelists who prey upon the vulnerable and emotionally insecure, swooping down on them when they are at their weakest and capturing them for their particular church.

They omit the *real* questions that need to be faced by any responsible person thinking of immigrating to SA, and dwell instead on "Don't you miss the sunshine?" and "Don't you miss your friends?" and that sort of thing.

Their forum was moderated, so they were already in a position to weed out comments that were needlessly offensive - or indeed to weed out any comments at all they didn't like. But even with this power in reserve, they still didn't find that they could sustain even a semi-open discussion on the pros and cons of returning to SA.

It was their heavy-handed censorship, and their silly branding of critics as "negative" or even "racist" that finally persuaded me that what the supposed doom-mongers were saying about SA was at least partly true.

I recall, not so long ago, Mugabe also used to blame all of Zimbabwe's ills on "foreign racists" and disaffected ex-Rhodesians. Well I don't think anyone belives that any longer. But there are plenty who still believe that any criticism of SA is proof that the critic must be a "racist." The term "racist" has been widened to encompass anyone who criticises anything about SA. If you happen to be black, they you're labelled an "uncle Tom".

In the end, just as with Zimbabwe, there comes a point where the truth can't be hidden any longer.

Speaking for myself, I certainly hope that things *do* work out well in SA. But I am not going to deceive myself. The writing is on the wall.

Pablo

Re: African Crisis
 

Hi pdohr

I noticed you live in Rio. I would be interested in your opinions about Brazil as I am considering living there....although I do have certain reservations.

Would be interested in your thoughts and opinions

Re: African Crisis
 

Ok, I really don´t know where to start... I´ve been here for 25 years now..
Best thing, you compile a list of items you want information about...

I´ll be looking out for your message on the "Rest of the World" column...

Cheers...

Re: African Crisis
 

Man, I love reading your and Pablo's posts :D This one was especially interesting to me as I was involved in getting the gov grant for this "big telescope" whilst my husband was involved in the upgraded design of it. What people don't realise is that SA owns so little of this telescope that it's basically a foreign telescope on SA soil, NOT a SAcan telescope at all. In fact SA has so whittled down it's science & development budget that it can not even afford their small part of the upkeep of this telescope and have started downgrading all the other telescopes on the sites' maintenance & development in order to fund this one huge telescope. The ANC caved in on the building of it because of their appaling treatment of science per se in SA -they were told that allowing this 10m telescope to be built would show the world their "commitment" to science, whilst they were all the while busy sneaking their sangomas & traditional stories in the back door of the education department. I know what the schools science curriculum in SA comprises of and can guarantee you that it will not be a future nation of great scientists or mathematicians. Anyone who thinks that traditional stories should be taught instead of science cannot expect to raise a nation of scientists. Anyone who puts sangomas, who use human tissue & body part and chanting in their "medicine", on par with a trained herbalist, doctor or specialist, isn't really concerned about real science at all.

I think though, that we have to be a bit sorry for people like Sweet Chilli as they are obviously the people who cannot leave and it must be driving them nuts that we could and did leave.

I have a sister in law who recently told me that she "didn't care" about all the rapes and crime because it didn't affect her personally. When challenged on her uncaring attitude she said;" I can't leave, what do you expect me to do?" I think this lies at the heart of the problem. They cannot leave & so they rant & rave at those of us who can. They cannot leave & so they try to pull the wool over people's eyes in order to try and get them back so that they don't feel so very alone anymore. They DO say that misery loves company.....

Re: African Crisis
 

This is why those of us who have recently left get so annoyed at those who try to pretend all is hunky dory. SA is a VERY, very dangerous place and anyone who encourages someone to immigrate there, especially someone from a first world country who cannot conceive of the kind of dangers they will face in SA, is a very reckless and heartless person. :mad:

Re: African Crisis
 

By the same token who would want to live in Brazil? Yesterdays newspaper quoted a figure of 40,000 gun deaths! a year Policemen shooting street children! Like South Africa, Brazil is a huge country but people like yourself still live there and I presume have normal lives.

A bit of the kettle calling the pot black.

Re: African Crisis
 

Hmmm, not sure if this was supposed to be funny....cause if it was than you got to work on your sense of humor

Re: African Crisis
 

Damn right you are! That´s why I´m already on my way out (back to the UK in
2 weeks)... Had enough of this.. and that´s why I can understand so well
what´s going on in South Africa!

I only hope I´ve helped to open the eyes of people who think about emigrating
to SA or Brazil...

Re: African Crisis
 

I think when you're *outside* you often get a better feel for what's going on than when you're inside. When you're living in a well-run First World country you can see how insane and destructive some of the ANC's policies really are.

I think things will really start to get difficult there when the ANC starts to be outflanked on the political left - probably by some populist leader who combines the rhetoric of Mugabe and Winnie Mandela, and promises the poor and dispossessed an end to all their troubles.

As with elsewhere in Africa, the target of this rhetoric will be the Whites and Indians - just as the Nazis found it convenient to blame the rich Jews for everything.

Mugabe has already made threatening noises about the Indians in Zimbabwe, and the Indians have also been attacked in Malawi, and of course in Uganda... .and at various times in SA too, especially in Natal.

Already in SA we can see signs of a populist anti-ANC movement. All they need is a charismatic leader. Zuma perhaps? What has he got to lose? I fear that people will look back on Mbeki as a golden age compared with what's coming. I hope I'm wrong, but the signs are there.

A friend of mine was over in Ireland this weekend, and ran into a couple of SA doctors. They reminded me of what I have heard elsewhere, that the health services in SA are collapsing - and not only the state-run sector, but the private sector too. Doctors and nurses are leaving in droves. Working conditions are deteriorating. Medical aid costs are soaring, and there is a growing brain-drain of medical skills.

Pablo

Re: African Crisis
 

Well, they've certainly lost us.

Re: African Crisis
 

PDHOR...I have sent you a PM.

Re: African Crisis
 

Good riddance..

Re: African Crisis
 

Another of your classically ignorant replies.

Re: African Crisis
 

Us? Nooooo!!! Certainly not!! ;)

Re: African Crisis
 

:D

Re: African Crisis
 

From News24.co.za web site:

"SA tops in private health care
Aug 15 2005 02:46:00:000PM

Re: African Crisis
 

The long quote, which is all this article consists of, is hardly from a disinterested observer. I think I'll stick to what I'm hearing from South African doctors, thank you.

Pablo

Re: African Crisis
 

Having read your previous ranting this does not surprise me.

Re: African Crisis
 

From my own personal experience I would tend to believe the quotes Stormer has provided. If it were not for the competence, speed and professionalism of the private hospital my father-in-law was admitted to in Jo'burg while having a major heart-attack he would not be around today. The care and major operation he underwent after the heart-attack were first class. I do not hold the same high regard for the NHS of which I also have experience.

Re: African Crisis
 

My doctor in Johannesburg (my ex doctor) had a heart attack in 2001. He then found out he needed a quintuple bypass, which he had at a private clinic in Jo'burg with a doctor of his own choosing - a doctor he knew and trusted, and, since my doctor was a qualified surgeon, he knew what he was talking about when it came to surgery.

While recovering in Intensive Care, he was mistakenly identfied as someone *awaiting* an operation, and was about to be wheeled off, but fortunately he was conscious, and managed to prevent this happening.

After that he checked himself out and had a whole intensive care thing set up in his own home. He told me later that the only place he'd go for treatment was the Garden City Clinic. That was 2001. Things may have changed.

But if things are really so hunky dory, one wonders why Manto the health minister is coming to the UK to try to persuade SA nurses and doctors to return.

It was reported a few months ago that the medical school at the U. of Cape Town were dropping the standard for black medical students, because not enough of them were qualifying. If this report is true, it is also a cause for concern.

The thing about health care is that most people don't have much to do with it. Unless you work in the system, or know people who do, you don't get to hear what's really going on.

It's like those people in the UK who have one good experience with the NHS and think that as a result of that one good experience the whole NHS is absolutely fine and faultless.

Pablo

Re: African Crisis
 

Many of my friends and several of my family members work in the SA health care system and they are appalled at it. They are doctors, nurses, specialists and all have quite a bit to say about the health care in RSA, and none of it is complimentary. Many of them are in the process of immigrating already and many more would immigrate tomorrow if they did not have situations at home that prevented them from leaving (e.g. family, finances etc.)

Yes, SA has some of the most innovative and excellent medical specialists in the world, but for how long will that prevail with a gov that doesn't care about standards or science?

Re: African Crisis
 

Stormer you are obviously on a mission here and neither realistic nor unbiased. Those of us who have immigrated have lived both sides of this argument and actually have a bit of first-hand knowledge to back up what we post. All you have is emotional ravings and other people's opinions.

Please get some facts because you are starting to look really silly.

Re: African Crisis
 

And are you are entirely innocent of the same charge? Your patronizing post deserve nothing but contempt they get from me. Same goes for few other posters on the site.
I 'm afraid that your confidence is inspired either by ignorance or arrogance, or both.

Re: African Crisis
 

Stormer. I amintruiged to known what brings you to this group of forums full of all us ignorant expat South Africans feeling sorry for our selves. ;) Please enlighten me. perhaps like most of us who joined, a desire to leave there?

Re: African Crisis
 

QWhy does no one on these forums discuss why you now have a medical crises in SA. At the end of apartheid, medical services became more readily available to the masses probably overwhelmong the system. Medical staff moved to the Arab States for huge salaries. I met many in Saudi.

HIV and Aids related illnesses cause a drain on Government funding. As more and more staff leave of course the conditions get worse for those who stay.

Training of black doctors? How many did SA have before 1990? Other African countries have had African doctors for many years. Lowering of standards is probably only done at admission level as many will be lacking
the necessary sciences needed. Clinical Officers ( between nurse level and doctors) can be trained and can help with the work load.

Of course the mediacal services will not be what most of the white population were used to but at least now it is available to more people.

Re: African Crisis
 

What you say is partly right. It is true, as you say, that people are emigrating. People do, in a free country.

Furthermore, while it is understandable that the SA government wants to increase medical coverage in the remote bush areas, forcing newly trained doctors and nurses to spend a year or two working in those places is proving to be counterproductive, just as was predicted.

It doesn't help either that the government is playing political race games with the medical system, as they are now doing with the education system.

But worst of all must be the SA government's attitude to Aids treatment. For absurd reasons of black racial pride and other nonsense, the government has remained in denial precisely at the time when it could have taken effective measures to combat the spread of hiv. And now, even with free or virtually free hiv drugs, the government is not able - and some say not willing - to combat this *holocaust*.

The levels of hiv positive South Africans are now so high that it is questionable whether any country - even a First World country - could cope without a massive redirection of resources. Have you seen the numbers? And while these numbers of hiv+ victims has grown and grown, the government has sat idly by arguing that hiv doesn't cause Aids.

In short, while I acknowledge the problem is multifaceted, the core problem is political. It is caused by the government's policies, or its complacency, and will not be solved without changes.

As for the lowering of admission standards for trainee doctors, your point may be right if those same doctors will be failed at the end of their courses if they don't make the grade. And it may be that that will happen. However, elsewhere in SA, in other areas of expertise, what we see is that, once these people are in the education system, there is huge pressure *not* to fail them - especially if the majority of failures happen to be black. So it becomes easier for the universities, and for the government, if they are passed, even if they are not up to standard.

On that last question we shall see. If the West stops recognising that a SA medical qualification is as good as, say, a UK one, then we will have an indication that standards are slipping.

Pablo