Lion in Winter

And many expats who come here do so precisely to let off steam and talk about their difficulties, or share insider cultural jokes, with others in the same boat who will understand - because they can't and don't do it in "real life."

Beaverstate

No offense intended... That was more or less what I was trying to relay, perhaps not clearly enough. That is why my posts tend to be so .."tepid" I realize that I am a guest... wanted or unwanted. Also I have never thought that expats would be anything other than polite in "real life"

Lion in Winter

Not offended in the slightest. Naturally, when you have an expat gathering, expat "issues" tend to arise. Presumably very few British expats wander around the US complaining about bacon and such like to their American friends. And there is no need to be tepid at all - I mean, look at Leslie...

UkWinds5353

Every country in the world has a social class system.What I admire about America(among many things)is that the class system is based on what you accomplish in your own right and not based on a bloodline connection. New success is the same as old success.

Lion in Winter

Disagree. If you have ever mixed with the (relatively) old money of the East Coast and compared that to the newer money of the West and the Midwest,you would find that there are most certainly bloodline and snobbery connections. There are other social class differences too, as evidenced, for example, in where people went to school and university, and their cultural activities. Or, as someone I met put it "she looks as though she spent $10,000 on that, only in Woolworths".

Jerseygirl

I fully agree.

UkWinds5353

I hear what you're saying and I agree there are snobs among the rich, and I'm sure there is a very small percentage of people that might think as you mentioned(maybe in new england or some other enclave)but when you take the time to think about it, class system in the States has nothing to do with bloodline based on hierarchy.It's about wealth and education. In America you could just about find anything including a city with a majority population that speak a foreign language. Doesn't mean that is the standard of this nation.

Hard work and effort here will always be more respected than someone that did not earn their success. We do not have a hierarchy bloodline system in America because it was rejected when the founders of this country were deciding on our system of government. They did consider copying the system of Monarchs from europe but they rejected it because they realized the system more preffered was based on democracy. And surely nothing connected to bloodline hierarchy that is formally recognized or respected has been accepted in nearly 250 years, or been accepted by those that are wealthy or by the general public as the rule of thumb. Status here first began with wealth, then education and contacts. There is a name recognition factor here in the States that can be quite influential. A Clinton or Rothchild does have meaning in certain circles. Personally speaking, I think its all nonsense but its worthy of a passing comment.

kimilseung

There is a bloodline hierarchy in the US and that system will continue to exist until heavy taxation for inherited income is introduced and universal quality education is available, The lack of social mobility compared to other countries is evidence of this.

The wealth and education perpetuate themselves. The restricted availability of these is how all bloodline hierarchies develop.

cluedweasel

And do you consider that to be an improvement? I would argue that in many ways it's actually worse. I abhor the attitude that many here have that those in manual and menial jobs are in those because they haven't worked "hard" enough. Bollocks. I know people who hold down 3 different jobs, working 60+ hours a week, pumping gas, waiting, labouring, etc. Those people don't work hard? Of course, most of them don't have health insurance, etc. and if they complain are invariably told it's their fault.

Lion in Winter

I think you may be working under the misconception that the wealthy in the UK are those who have descended from the old "aristrocratic" families who didn't "earn" their money. While some of this is certainly left, two world wars that almost wiped out one generation of young men, severely reduced a second, and almost bankrupted one of the wealthiest countries on earth (the UK and its empire) largely changed a great deal of that.

The wealthy of the UK have for the most part made their money the way that most wealthy have - with a combination of work of their own, the work of others (who are not wealthy as a result), luck, opportunity, friends and connections, the ability of money to create more money, State support (in the cases of tax breaks and government subsidies). etc. The "self made man" myth is just that - nobody is really self made, in the US or the UK.

Also do not forget the flip side of class discrimination, which is class pride. The old working class of the UK has a pride that I think the US rough equivalent does not, and a labour movement that put forward their rights and advanced the social agenda in a way that US never did. The US barons of industry have taken advantage of that throughout the late nineteenth, all the 20th, and now the 21st century. That isn't being "self made" either, any more than becoming rich off the backs of slaves (then) and cheap immigrant labour inside the US or cheap labour in poverty-stricken countries outside the US.

UkWinds5353

No.I wasn't in agreement with the class system just pointing out the difference between europe's system and the one in America.In europe the hierarchy based on bloodline links a person to people that had a title. In America the link between those in a hierarchy has more to do with the have's and have nots.Having the money to gain access to Harvard or Cornell University are examples. Interestingly enough, many Americans are accepting of a class system that required hard work to attain wealth. They can appreciate the status achieved by a dot com millionaire based on her/his own creativity. Obviously there are snobs every where and a person doesn't have to be titled or rich to be snobbish.

Cuthbert Rizla

I agree.
The very fact that Americans don't use the terms working,middle or upper classes but blue or white collar suggests that they themselves don't believe there is a class system.
It's also probably why there isn't the huge resentment of the better off that there is in the UK as most Americans see wealth as an ambition to be achieved rather than envied.
For all its economic woes it is still the land of opportunity.

UkWinds5353

I think we agree on some points but are not connecting on others. I agree that wealth is built up in various ways in every nation,some honest and through hard work and other times by hook or by crook.When talking about bloodline hierarchy I was pointing out the difference between europe's class system of Titles via the monarch system versus America's class system based on the building of wealth and status. One is achieved by effort and work while the other is passed down based on bloodline.

But many of the points in your post I agreed with. In terms of the Barons of industry in America, several of their types were also in europe, but I agree the best known ones were in the steel industry,railroad and in the tobacco industry during the industrial revolution of the 1800's to the early 1920's.Funny enough I had to write a term paper on this subject not long ago. And also on the subject about slavery? England was a huge financier of the ships that transported free men,women and children to the Americas. In fact England was only second to portugal in the capturing and then shipping of slaves from Africa to the Americas. Its interesting because England did not have many slaves in England but that was well made up for with all the free men,women and children that were forced into bondage and sent to the colonies that were under the control of england in the caribbean.By the mid 1700's, england was transporting more Africans into slavery than any other european country.

History is one of my favorite subjects and I think its important to know something about our past. Btw, it was the profits that england earned from shipping free Africans into slavery that helped finance the industrial revolution in england through the 1700 to 1800's. The estimates of how many Africans that England shipped is around 3.4 million innocent souls.

UkWinds5353

That is the exact point I was trying to make.Thank you. Its called having skin in the game or putting your self on the line to earn what you have. Here in America, people tend to believe that if you go from poor to rich, rich is rich regardless if your money is first generation or fifth.Some snobs will disagree but the vast vast majority will not see a difference.

Beaverstate

+1 I agree with that. Never been wealthy myself but know a few who have become so. No jealousy on my part, I actually work for one of them.