Ariadne

I've been very stupid.

Applied for a job that involved an enhanced CRB, last year, was told it'd show EVERY involvement with the police. My parents told me not to worry, I'd never been prop[erly arrested. I worried and worried. Thing is, I HAVE been arrested. A few times, pre 2001. I don't know the exact dates and they were all to do with mental illness issues related to panic attacks - *I think.* I can't even be sure because they never told me what the heck was going on. In every case they let me go within 1 hour without charge. I actually asked them at the time if I was being charged and they wouldn't tell me what with. They never followed it up. I really am clueless about the whole affair.

My eCRB came back utterly clean so I've been walking around, head in clouds thinking these weren't real arrests. Last month I got married in the USA. I clicked "no" on ESTA re any arrests - for moral turpitude? I ticked "no" on the visa waiver form. I didn;t even think twice about it. I thought I was telling the truth. I camew back from the USA to start the visa process. I thought I was above board.

I've not been, have I? I only learned this because somebody on the internet told me. If I already knew I was potentially committed visa fraid I'd have gone the whole hog and tried for change of status. I really thought I was doing everything right.

I'm frightened of applying for ACPO because I've been on the phone to them basically all week, finally getting a supervisor who told me that I had to tell the truth because if I was found to be lying then it was an offense, and that if I said yes and the results were clear nonetheless she could not tell me whether or not that info could be divulged to US immigration.

I look on the US embassy of London site and all it can tell me is that if I've EVER been arrested for ANY reason I need a visa. But I didn't get a visa. I went in on visa waiver. I rang the US embassy and asked if I'd be in trouble for it and all I got was "we can't say."

I'm frightened to death of even applying for the spousal visa because it could just result in a ban over this issue. As it stands I don't know who to believe. I know I've not been arrested for a crime - or have I? Conceivably there could be "public disorder" on the arrest record or "resisting arrest" - I certainly did not want to go with the police. But how do you know if they never tell you? All I can find on the internet where they can arrest and detain without charge is "Section 139" mental health act. But could they arrest for another reason, or suspicion of another reason and just let you go? Are these real arrests? What should I do?

What's preventing me checking ACPO is that question on the form "have you ever been arrested" and the bit where it says giving wrong information is an offence, and especially the bit where it says they can share any information to help with an immigration decision. This is a huge dilemma and I'm wondering if it's too risky to go for this visa at all. Trouble is I want to get out of the UK and this is depressing me so much.

meauxna

There is an alternate solution you didn't cover: hire some professional help from people in a position to know.
First you need to find out if you were arrested, that answers one question and helps you discover what the next questions are.

Please don't be frightened; this is just one of those things, that will have logical steps to follow. I don't know enough about the eCRB to be able to assure you, but others here might be more familiar with the age and circumstances of the situation to give you a clue.


It is not too risky to apply for your immigrant visa; you just need to get more information before you file any application. In the meantime, your USC spouse can still start your petition, and you can do some investigating to find out what the truth is about your arrest or non-arrests.

You can start with your parents, and how you came to the conclusion that you *were* arrested (it's not clear in your post). Ask them, if they are the ones who told this to you, and try to get more detail.

Even 'if' you were arrested, and used the VWP, you were not necessarily in violation or answered the questions incorrectly.
You ARE doing everything right, and now you can see one benefit of applying for a visa vs going for the AOS while you were here. You will get a chance to arm yourself with the correct information before someone makes an unfavorable decision about you.

Just get some facts first; what you've got here is a pile of worries you can't sort out on your own.

Eventually you will want to get information and an 'all clear' from your doctor, before your immigration medical exam.

S Folinsky

The phrase "possible (unintentional) lie" shows an understandable lack of knowledge. The word "lie" is not in the immigration laws -- the problem comes from "willful misrepresentation of a material fact." Each one of those terms is quite loaded with a lot of meaning -- especially "willful" and "material." I am out of the advice business -- but even if I gave advice here -- you have posted an extremely complicated question way out of the scope of "simple" advice.

Good luck.

Ariadne

I've thought about doing a subject access and to be honest I think I'll do it tomorrow.

Trouble is we are under a deadline. My husband is a student. He has taken a year out to sort this. He applied for UK universities and they have not replied. His parents want him to go to university in the USA. He has to start by next Jan in the USA, or he comes here and goes on OU. I don't want any more delays if avoidable. I really hate it here and have basically all my adult life. I've lived overseas for years (no depression, no trouble with police) and came back 18 months ago. Very unhappy, very exploited at work, very low pay and very high taxes. Living next door to drug dealers to keep rent low to potentially do the UK visa instead. To be honest I always thought the US wouldn't have me. Then my eCRB came back clean, parents told me I was being paranoid, I trusted them even though we have never had a good relationship (I have low self esteem.) THEN my husband;s mother offered to sponsor me. I was very happy in the USA and I thought I could get out of the UK again. I don't want to lose that dream.

We are probably applying for both visas just in case because it's hellish being apart.

meauxna

Yes, go to the local cop shop where you lived when this maybe happened and get your subject access report. It may take 40 days to get it, so hop to.

Order your ACPO report. If you do not know if you were arrested or not, you are not lying however you answer the question. I would not spiral out over the portion you earlier were worried about.

You NEED the support of his family from what you've written. Consider honoring his family's wishes and getting yourself organized. If you are prepared, there is no reason you shouldn't have your visa and be prepared to move to the US in January yourself.

Nothing you have written so far is a deal breaker or you immigration to the US so if that is where you intend to live, get busy on it.

You need the data/information to take to a professional so ordering that is the first step.

Ariadne

Do you know if it's the case that if the subject access comes back clean, ACPO won't have anything either? So I can confidentally say "no" on that form?

On the phone, ACPO have been telling me I need to say "yes," but they are also telling me they have a right to disclose if I say yes to immigration. What this means is anyone with a really hazy involvement with the police which may or may not have been an arrest, suddenly becomes an arrest if you tell ACPO and they divulge it.

There is stuff from way, way back in my past where the police came round and questioned me, I can't remember squat about it as I was very young. I was the "odd" kid and neighbours would accuse me of breaking their windows. I didn't. My parents didn't even stick up for me. You look at this and it becomes clear why I wantedf out of the UK. It's a huge, scary mess. There are potentially lots of involvements on record. Does anhyone know if you are a suspect in a crime and you are questioned in your house but nothing is done, is that an arrest or does it not go on the record at all?

If you have had this happen in two areas do you have to do a PNC with both police forces?

I read that pre 2006 old (5+ year old) cautions were deleted off the computer. Now they are "stepped down" meaning not divulged but it still states they are there. So if you had something really minor, an arrest sans caution or anything like that pre 2001 will you be OK? I am asking in case anyone has any experiemce of it. It's for my peace of mind, because I'm still going frantic over this.

traceym

No the PNC is a National database you only need one.

When you say in your first post that you were taken to the Police Station do you remember if you were taken into the cells or just the Station? If it was due to panic attacks and you were known by the local Police it may be that you were taken in to 'a place of safety' until your parents could collect you?

Hw old were you when all this happened?

lansbury

If that came back clean the ACPO one should as well.

Neither would show arrests where you had not been charged and convicted (that includes cautions) unless there are any matters outstanding which have not been dealt with in court yet. Then it would show outstanding cases.

I guess the argument is is a police officer excising their power under Sec 139 Mental Health Act an arrest. Technically it is, is it a CIMT no it isn't, it isn't a crime just a power to make sure someone who the officer thinks is in need of a certain type of medical treatment can be assessed. I have detained (don't like the word arrest because if you believe they are mentally ill that is how they should be treated as someone who is ill) several people under Sec 139 and never considered it a crime and there is no requirement to submit a criminal record entry when doing so.

Go ahead and get the ACPO report, and if the facts you have given here are correct I cannot see any need to worry. Can't see you have done anything wrong.

Ariadne

Hi,

This would have been age 19-24 (I do not know exact dates.)

I don't know what it was where they put me on one occassion. I think it was a cell(?) but they left the door wide open and told me I was not being detained. My parents came for me as I was staying with them.

Other time, I can't remember. They very forcibly smashed my head into the floor while arresting me. A police complaints guy came to talk to me. I very much regret not doing anything about it. Let out on street within 1 hour. Street traders coming up to me offering to testify against the police. I didn't do squat. I'm an idiot. I could have got that taken off the record.

Both times I asked what they were arresting me for multiple times. And I never got an answer. I still don't know what to think. It has a large amount to do with hating the UK and being miserable here. If I see police, I cross the street and duck down a back alley. I'm scared they will grab me.

Ariadne

Hi,

Thanks. I'm going to do the subject access first though to get the details 100%. In case there is something I don't remember, or I was arrested for a suspected crime. Because I couldn't get them to say anything to me about what was going on.

Is it really an offense to say no on ACPO form if you don't know the details?

I've read in another thread if you say yes they ring you asking for details to pass on to the US side. I don't even have dates.

edit: And thanks again. You sound like the type of police officer who isn't completely power hungry about things like this. I think on that second occassion I really ran into some bad types. It left a lasting effect. One tthing I don't understand is, having read all this stuff I was supposed to have received medical treatment? I think on one occassion a doctor sdid speak to me, but I can't remember, and that was at the police station not the hospital as I've read.

I have problems enough having to be referred to a psychiatrist to confirm I'm not a danger to myself/others. That's already in process, now I need to sort this other thing out.

meauxna

What is on your record or not isn't always the issue; the question that will be asked on the visa application is 'have you ever been arrested?'. Even if you were never charged, you may need to answer 'yes' and explain the outcome.

IF you were arrested.

You have multiple issues related to this, which is why you need to get the information AND get professional advice (US immigration attorney).

On the one hand, you are just asking about your use of the VWP. If you were not arrested for a crime of moral turpitude or drug offense, the question from your first post should not be a problem.
However, it's going to come up again later in the process.


Keep asking, keep learning but don't think that clear reports from ACPO, Subject Access or CRB are the final answer.

Elvira

Gosh you are going to be so lucky, living inthe US............ because this sort of stuff just never happens here...

(Do they have "police complaints guys" running after peeps who have been arrested in the US?)

IMHO you need both a psychiatrist and an immigration lawyer...

Ariadne

I'm also not likely to have a partner who starts a huge emotional fight then runs off, leaving me in the street (I divorced him.)

I also don't have the panic attacks any more? But I am phobic of UK police. There's no need to make fun of me, I said SPECIFICALLY UK police because I lived overseas for 4 years and the police would stop and speak kindly to me. I was never arrested once and as I was still with my ex this stuff still happened.

Plus this was 10+ years ago. It doesn't matter where I say this I always seem to get people haviong a go at me. There's nothing I can do about all this stuff. I was happy outside the UK, I'm miserable here, I tried 18 months of living and working here so I could sort out the UK visa for my partner but I'm not ashamed to say I jumped at the chance of leaving here when offered. Now I'm unhappy because there's a possibility I won't see my husband's family again, who really have been like a proper family to me.

Trust me I have a LOT of ire towards the US penal process, it's the whole reason they want details of arrests even if you have done nothing wrong. There are other reasons why I'm miserable though, and the situation in the US is certainly better for me or at the very least, where my husband lives.

lansbury

No it is not an offense to lie on the ACPO form, it isn't very helpful to do so and I guess they ask so when they do the PNC checks if they may get more than one hit on a name (same details different people) it helps them to identity the correct record. Can't see why they would ring to ask for details as they ask you to submit the details with the form. My guess is they may do so on occasions if as above they are having trouble deciding which one of multiple records is the correct one.

Would someone at ACPO call the US Embassy and tell them. Divulging information from the PNC to an unauthorized 3rd party is a criminal offense. A person at ACPO would be stupid if they did that, the Embassy has legitimate means of obtain that information if they need it. The most legitimate of which is asking you to provide it, which is what they do, hence the request for a police certificate.

If you were detained under Sec 139 the following are the most likely outcomes. 1) Taken to the police station for your own safety and someone who is responsible for your well being (a parent called) to attend and take you home. 2) The police doctor called to medically assess if you are safe to be allowed to leave and take care of yourself or if 1 should apply or you need to go to hospital. 3) Taken to the local psychiatric facility for assessment as to the need to detain you for 72 hours for further medical assessment.

None of the above are what are called recordable offenses so nothing on the PNC, they are not criminal offenses and common sense says the words arrest and offense are not helpful what discussing these matters. It is dealing with someone who is ill in the same way you would help someone who has broken their leg. The only difference is if you break your leg you know you need medical help, with a mental illness that is usually not the case and a level of compulsion is required for the persons own good. So to my mind there is no way a Sec 139 "arrest" is a CIMT.

As you have already identified your problem lies with the visa medical. Get the subject access form and if there is anything on it you do not want to discuss in public feel free to send me a personal message. I had direct access to the PNC for 25 years so I doubt they will be anything on it I can't put into perspective.

ian-mstm

With all due respect, you seem to have a few major issues... none of which are related to immigration. If your underlying issues are not addressed, then you will continue to have those same issues no matter where you live.

Moving to the US (or having your husband move to the UK) will not change the way you deal with the world, and will not change the way you react in unfamiliar situations.

Ian