ukguy

Hello all,

I would appreciate your opinions.

I have a woman friend I have known in Pretoria since 2002, she has visited me and I have visited her.
We want to live together. Neither of us have or want children, in fact I had a vasectomy to make sure.
She was born and has lived in SA all her life, I was born and have lived in the UK all my life.
We are both in our early forties.

She has always worked and has a secure job in Johannesburg.

I am going to visit her again for a few weeks and see how I find it with a view to selling my modest property here and using the money to buy some land and build a property to sell and hopefully make a profit.
We would rent a property to live in while doing this.

Obviously no point buying cheap land to build on if nobody will want to buy it.
I see there is vacant land in midrand which I understand is a desirable area.
Have to take into account price of land, lawyers fee to check ownership, debts, rights of way, building licences and planning permission.
Building material cost, labour costs, estste agents fees (high in SA), transfer duty, conveyancing fees, surveyor, architect etc.

I have renovated and site managed building properties here in the UK.

If after visiting I decide I want to make the move I am not sure of the best way to go about it.
Should I stay a british citizen and buy the land there to build on and apply for a temporary visa, not sure of the visa situation except that I can visit without one for up to 3 months.

Or should I apply for SA citizenship?

Pablo

You might like to do a bit of research on the London SA High Commission web site and read up on the different type of visas and residence permits and determine which one would best suit your situation once your own plans have firmed up.

Irrespective of what you decide to do, there is no reason why you would not remain a British citizen. Nor would you need to apply for SA citizenship. You don't need to be a SA citizen in order to live there, any more than you need to be a British citizen in order to live in the UK.

The vasectomy would have no relevance for immigration or visa purposes.

Tegwyn

A visit is in order before any significant decisions are made.

ukguy

Thanks for the replies.

Yes I will be making a long visit before I put my property on the market or do anything drastic.
I am not being put any pressure at all from my female friend to move there, she knows it's a huge decision for me and that I will miss my mother who lives one hour from me now (my only living relative).

My worry is me getting off the property ladder here, failing in SA and by the time I can sell in SA and move back to the UK property prices will have risen so much I can't get anything for my money.

The grass is always greener on the other side and I don't know that I have the courage to sell up here and move to a foreign land and try to make a successful life, but I have always play safe and naver taken a gamble.

Looking at the London SA High Commission web site I see that I can visit without a visa for up to 3 months as long as I have a return ticket and enough funds for my stay.

Pablo, I am interested in what you say about there being no need for me to lose my British citizenship. I always thought that if one emigrated they had to take citizenship of that country. So it is ok to live there with my British citrizenship if the SA allow me to stay?
If that is the case then maybe a temporary residence permit would suit me.

The only reason I mentioned the vasectomy is because I have read a few posts where people have advised families with children not to move to South Africa because of the high crime statistics.

Pablo

No. Citizenship is a completely separate question from residency rights (either temporary residency rights or permanent residency rights).

A holiday visa (which is what you are alluding to) does not allow you to work or have access to banking facilities. And though a holiday visa may be extended by approaching the Dept of Home Affairs in SA, there is no guarantee that it will be extended, and so any such temporary stay would have with it the threat of being told you must leave the country. Applications for permanent residence are possible of course, but they take a while and there is no guarantee at all that you would be granted permanent residence (indeed, judging from what you have said, I think it would be unlikely unless you married your lady friend).

Forgive me but I can't go into all the ins and outs now. But in short there are three concepts you must consider.

1. citizenship (which you can forget about because it isn't important at this point)

2. permanent residence (which allows you do all the things you can do in, say, the UK, except you cannot vote or hold a SA passport)

3. temporary work permit (granted for specific categories of work -- and unlikely in your case, given what you have said)

4. temporary residence visa (which is the 3-month holiday visa that tourists automatically receive when entering SA at a port of entry -- with no right to work.

If you are all at sea on all this, and feel that the rather complicated research is too daunting, you may consider consulting an immigration agency. They charge, of course, but that is their business. If you follow this route, don't fork out in advance... some of them, possibly more than just some of them, are rip-off merchants.

Tegwyn

You do not have to give up your British citizenship ever! That would only be something you personally choose to do. I had my British passport in all the years I lived in Southern Africa, and I managed to get my son dual UK/SA citizenship when he was a young lad, but tossed the SA one when we settled in the states. We are dual UK/US here. I simply would apply for permanent residence than give up my passport.

I cannot emphasize enough that you do not want a SA passport. Travel has become very restrictive with one of those.

ukguy

Thanks for the replies.

It's good that I wont need to give up my British citizenship.

Sorry for not making myself clear.
I mentioned the 3 month holiday visa only regarding my next visit so that I can assess if I want to make the more permanent move.

However I did not realise that the 3 month holiday visa was the same as the temporary residence visa.

So my options seem rather limited for me. A permanent residence probably would be what I am looking for with regard to living there, buying a small piece of land and developing.

I do not have any special skills or qualifications that the SA government would be interested in.
If I were to marry my friend it would be a few years down the line. We would need to live together and see how we get on bofore making that decision.

I also read about needing 2.5million Rand, I will only have half that amount to bring into SA.

So I may not be that attractive to the SA government.

Tegwyn

If you do not have the special skills the country needs, or the ability to run/ finance your own business, you will be very challenged to find any employment never mind the long shot of qualifying for permanent residence. Unemployment rate in SA is very high and the government is very clear in taking care of their own first, even if not up to the skill level of the minority. I suggest only a look/see, you will understand first hand that it is not as simple as popping over. I think you need to simply look ahead at a visit and examine your options with open eyes before even considering selling off an investment in the UK. You may have romanticized an image of life in SA that is far away from the practicalities of living there.

ukguy

Yes another look see is on the cards and until then I wont be marketing my property.
If after the visit I decide I want to make the move I will have the proceeds from the sale of my property to run my own business in SA, buy land and build on it.

There is a box for "own business" in the "category of permit being applied for".

My friends is an accountant and her family are offering me help if I decide to go. Her cousin is a lawyer so I can raise the points you and Pablo brought up with her when I am there.

Actually from all the programmes that I have seen on TV recently about SA I have done anything but romanticize life there. It will need to be pretty good for me to leave what I have here.

Phival

Hi,
my wife and I came down to SA in 2006 on a family visa, ie we were sponsored by my brother who has lived here for 30 years. He had to show that he had income of R5000 per month per person sponsored, in excess to his own R5000 per month.This visa lasts for two years and we have renewed it once. Nearly ended up in prison because person at Home Affairs gave us duff info on when it had to be renewed!
We have now applied for permanent residence as applicants in our own right and this has been going on for 3 years. If you want advice on your situation go to DeLoittes, they have a dept who deal with this and are superb. Our experience is that you cannot do it on your own. People at SA Home Affairs will lie outright to your face and then deny what they said. Corruption at HA is rife and do not be tempted by any offers of 'the easy way'.
Our application for permanent residence requires an income, per person per month, of R20,000 gross (and that is important). We have a house in the UK so we could include the rent (gross) from that, plus the notional rent (gross)we would get on our house in SA, which we own outright, if we were to rent it. Also any current or projected income (again gross) of any pension or annuities that we might get in the future.
DO NOT think of coming to SA with ideas of 'the UK with sun'. It is a completely different life and other cultures do not respond well to the 'whenwe's'. This is not restricted to racial groups, as to have a burgundy passport and a UK pension is something that leads to a lot of jealousy from those who have to jump through hoops to go see their relatives in Europe. If you are Caucasian, some people will look at this first and decide that you were responsible for apertheid and when you tell them you only just arrived, you are accused of living off apertheid. You can't win!
Be prepared to have burglar bars and to lock all your doors when it gets dark. You probably won't get burgled but, unlike the UK, the burglar wants to see you as he believes you have money and jewellry in a house safe, he can get your gun from the cabinet and he wants your car keys. Oh and he probably has a gun, as he believes you have one too and will use it.
Prices have gone up in the last few years and, as the £ in in the dumps, it has made it all the more difficult.
We have a 175 sq mtr living area house on a 1200sq mtr lot, with a pool and double garage in Port Elizabeth. Its worth R1,200,00 currently and we pay R650 per month for munic bill, inc water. Electricity is going up by 25% a year for the next 3 years and currently we pay R.7 per KWh and use 600 KWh's per month. Medical Aid (essential) is R2,200 pm for two of us and armed response R170pm. Fillet steak is R80 per kilo and cigs R10 per packet. Superb wine is R25 a bottle.
Beware the SA habit of getting fat! SA has the second highest incidence of obesity after the US.
Insurance for the house and two cars is R1000 per month.
Car prices are astronomical, bring one down if you come. If you stay permanently you can claim the import duty back.
Phil

whalewatcher

That's worth noting! I've been back in the UK for over two years but it's still going to take a long time to return to my lean pre-SA physique...

The obesity level isn't a widely known fact which I stopped mentioning to South Africans because of the disbelief and outrage that came with it. South Africans seem so uninformed about their own country, they live by a mythology and get upset when it's contradicted.

Alfresco

I agree to an extent, but i also find that a lot (read LOADS) of Brits are really too thin and gaunt and they think it's normal to walk around like skeletons with skin stretched over them.

One of our kids (English) friends (when they were much smaller) came over for a sleep over. His parents said he likes fish fingers, so we had fish fingers. It turned out that that's all he ever ate, nothing but fish fingers. His parents never fed him anything else.

Just look at some of the UK women news readers (Charlotte Hawkins on Sky is one) and other celebs in the UK. They looks like shapeless 6 year old girls but only taller. Is it genetic or because they starve themselves?

South Africans will get upset because you are intruding on their lifestyle.

I wouldn't dare say to a really skrawny guy or girl here in the UK that he or she's far too thin and should do something about it before they wither and die. Would you?

Chris_Rostron

whalewatcher

Why can't they take it? They dish it out so much.

Part of the Saffa 'mythology' is that they are all strapping healthy outdoor folk, while people in other countries are out of shape, pale, and ghostly. Your post seems to be a vigorous defence of that stance.

I wouldn't say that people in the UK are too thin. To be honest, having returning after 10+ years in SA, Brits have become way too fat. Just not as generally porky as Saffas.

Alfresco

Not vigorous in defence, it's just that's it's an ingrained culture which won't change overnight. Amongst the native people, fatness = wealth for the women. You and I can't change that either.

Yip plenty of porkers over here too now! In fact every country has a mix of thin, fat and medium. Australia will no doubt be the same when we get there.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. I just leave them be.

My kids would have had to play sport in S.A. at school but here they don't have to, so they don't.

Just my 2p.