I don't think it's the work drinks thing cos of Oz. Locals were friendly enough on the surface but it was hard to really break in.

i can see that but with the ozzies i found it a lot more like home, with the banter, jokes, and generaly i found i could meet people there alot easier. and with canadians as well i found they get offended very easy when the banter is flying around. not to say i or my other mates where picking on the locals it was just general boys having jokes with boys.

cheers guys

Hi Zibby, what you've written is very similar to what I've been feeling recently. I did my first stint here in '07 with a WH Visa and really enjoyed it so I came back in January for another go, being a bit more grown up with a degree and a bit of professional work experience this time.

This is something I've certainly found. Vancouver feels like a difficult place to 'break into' professionally and socially and I hear you on the cliquey groups thing. Lots of people who are friendly to your face but have no real interest in being your friend or letting you into their group, while some are quite aloof and cold. It's not so much meeting people full stop as finding people you can be friends with. Still, it's not like I haven't met cool people here - albeit for the most part from other countries or elsewhere in Canada (some of the latter of which have also found the same things you and I have) - and for me presently, not being able to find a job is clearly having an affect on my mindset so I know I'm not really giving Vancouver a fair shot. I am thinking of giving it a few months and then seeing how I feel after the summer, and maybe move on then, but I'm wary of falling into the trap of thinking the grass is always greener.

Pub culture seems a pretty British thing which I was never that keen on anyway, and I haven't driven here so can't really comment on that - I like the way people stop for pedestrians to cross though. Vancouver's certainly expensive even if you're not planning on buying a house etc, but given its isolation and other factors I suppose that's inevitable to an extent. As for the last point - I kind of get what you mean - describing things as 'awesome' all the time when they're merely decent can get pretty obnoxious, but I do admire people's enthusiasm. People do talk about Vancouver in hyperbole sometimes too (listening to some people you'd think it was the only place in the world with mountains and sea nearby).

Agree on the eating out thing and I do like being so close to ski mountains. Hopefully I can try and few more outdoor things during the summer! Compared to what I'm used to the public transit's pretty good and I find it easy to get around here, and I like the amount of parks and how well-kept they are for the most part. It's also a much more liberal and tolerant place than I'm used to.

All in all I'm in a bit of a quandary at the moment. You're certainly not alone in what you experienced though!

I think living on the east coast as opposed to west, people are so much friendlier. I felt like we fit in straight away, most are keen to go out of their way to help. But there are lots of things that annoy me, same as you, bank charges, impatient bad drivers who have no consideration for others, poor choice of foods and liquer prices haaa!!!
all in all i think Canada is a better lifestyle .

I've been in Calgary for 3 years and find Canadians very flakey and hard to get along with (apart from my Canadian hubby of course!) All of my friends here are from UK. I can honestly say that if it wasn't for them I would have no friends!

That is one of the consequences of living here. There are many pro's

I've sensed an east/west discrepancy too, kind of like the north/south one in England (in terms of how friendly, or not, people are). I guess some people are not all that sensitive to this kind of thing but I think I'm someone who is...anyone lived in both who could comment?

My daughter in Vancouver reported having a hard time getting started (compared to Montreal and Halifax) due, she thought, to the lack of a pub culture "people have parties and meet new people at them but, if you don't know the first person, you don't get invited". After nine months though she claims to have lots of acquaintances and a fair few friends. The way of meeting people has been the same as in any big city, perhaps anywhere:

- she belongs to an ethnic minority, people meet for the chance to converse in their native language, French in this case

- she has an established hobby, sailing, sought chances to pursue it and met people through that

- she's poor, living in a shared house with many people inevitably exposes one to some of a like mind

- she's a student, her fellow students are in the same boat

By way of contrast, I have always had a job since emigrating and so most of the people I know derive from that; that's something that won't work if there's no social culture related to work. In Toronto office culture varies enormously from firm to firm and so I have a large network of associates who all worked at one time for a company with a social culture. I've since worked at lots of companies without getting to know anyone at all. By way of similarity with the youth of today, I know loads of people from my pastime, posting on various discussion boards.

I don't know Vancouver but I'd guess that in Toronto, unless you're lucky enough to work for a company that fosters a social atmosphere, you need either children, so as to meet other parents, or some sort of hobby that involves teams.

I live in Vancouver (well the 'burbs). I have both found it difficult to make friends and find decent work. Counter either of these and your life may be easier.

I have found that people in Vancouver are very friendly from the outset, but aren't willing to follow it up. People are very flaky. It almost seems a defensive thing? People seem very loyal to previous old friends and will pay piecemeal service to new ones.

I found Oz easier too. People are willing to have have a beer after work and a joke and are much more open. Everyone here just seems too serious at times. It's strange because everyone always goes on about networking, yet I have found a lot of people defensive and unwilling to open up. The conversion is stilted, as if people are hiding the secret to getting good jobs here???

I am in Toronto, and have been here for 5 years. Its been a constant struggle to meet people and make friends. Someone said earlier in the thread that meeting people is not the hard part, its meeting people that you want to be friends with. I totally agree. I work for a good company and my co-workers are great gals. But they had all been friends for a long time before I started 4 years ago, then I arrived and it took a while to be 'accepted'. Its a lot better now, but we dont have friends or family here. Its a lonely existence, people are too caught up with making money. Yes, the aggressive driving drives me crackers

I agree the cultural similarities make OZ seem easier on the surface, but when it came down to it, people already had their groups of friends and it was hard to break in. I don't disagree with what you're saying about Van, though.

I think it's hard(er) to break in anywhere once you're an adult. I didn't notice it when I was travelling because I was always travelling with other people and we were each other's support. But just as an example, I lived for a while in a Scottish village on the West Coast of Scotland, and there was a Kiwi girl there who had been there 2-3 years and was in tears one night because she was still not accepted by the locals. It was different for me and my friend because we a. had each other and b. where moving on. I just think it's hard sometimes.

What I've learned about Van is that it is possible to find a community of people you click with and will accept you, you just have to find them. That's the tricky part. IMO Van is very tribal, and you can have a completely different experience depending on what part of the city you're in. If I was in Kits I would be miserable because what's important over there is just not important to me. I was in East Van for a while and I found the Commercial drive peeps pretty cliquey too, but in a completely different way to Kits - it felt you needed to be a mega granola crunchy hemp weaving lesbian couple to be really accepted. Around Renfrew the lack of english speaking neighbours can make it very lonely, even if you have kids in school, if most of the parents don't speak english it's unlikely you'll be able to make a lot of friends. We've finally found a good neighbourhood. People are pretty social, welcoming and laid-back & there's strong community spirit. But it's taken a while.

There are good pockets like that all over the city but you have to spend some time here to find out about them. One of our friends lives in a great neighbourhood in Dunbar - kids running in & out of each other's houses, doors left open, street parties etc. But literally a few blocks away it becomes a dead zone, with nothing but the sound of money being socked away in off-shore bank accounts to keep you company. Same with parts of East Van too.

Edited to add: but I think dbd makes a good point about there being certain points in an adult life when it's easier to make friends. Having young kids in school def. helps. Being a student. Being a backpacker too because you can hang with your fellow travellers.

Do please expand on this, I have the idea that granola is very much in vogue there.

In Kits? Yes, but the trendy sort of granola with all the trendy granola accessories. Whereas Commercial it's more an earnest sort of granola. More earthy.

It probably all seems the same from Afar, doesn't it? But there are subtle differences. Not all granolas are the same. bwhwhahahahaha!

I find that in Canada if you are of Celtic decent then as soon as you open your mouth they want a piece of you, I have seen myself in a bar and hear an English voice order a drink and no one looks the road they are on, but as soon as I open my mouth at least one person will comment "What part of Scotland are you from" I think its all down to there own heritage, I have been invited back to hundreds of peoples houses to see pictures of there grandparents house in the highlands of Scotland, infact they nearly allways end up here at mine in Scotland before the years out, as far as being scottish in canada goes it better than being at home.................................because there the ones buying YOU the drinks

All fair comment.

I must admit I have always found the sense of community in Toronto much better than in London. I always speak to my neightbours and locals here.

I don't really miss pubs. Warm beers, fighting your way to get served and slow service- not to mention often having to stand with people pushing past. I'll take my bars in Toronto over my favourite London pubs anytime.

It is harder to meet people and break into clicks in Canada and they definately have a strange misplaced perception of their place in the world. Often I find topic of conversation at partys dull and boring, very basic and straight shooting. But that's just the way it is- you don't come to Canada for intellectual stimulus.

On my last trip to the US all the Canadians had Canada flags on their luggage...........