Go Back   British Expats / Living & Moving Abroad / Europe / Portugal

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old Sep 5th 2017, 4:16 pm   #31
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: central Portugal
Posts: 3,511
mfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Stupidity killed 2 people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulaski View Post
Which is exactly what you just did in post #22!
I don't think I made post #22 but please post the quote where I speculated?

All I'm trying to do is explain there are endless possible scenarios of what could have happened & that speculation is pointless & almost certainly wrong.

A very good example of pointless speculation by the media on such subjects is Malaysia Airlines 370 where we've seen the media suggesting everything from mad pilots to aliens to bombs to technical failure in the 3 years or so since it disappeared.

Last edited by mfesharne; Sep 5th 2017 at 4:26 pm.
mfesharne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 5th 2017, 4:26 pm   #32
Lt Col (Retd)
Premium Member
 
Pulaski's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2001
Location: Dixie, ex UK
Posts: 42,909
Pulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Stupidity killed 2 people

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfesharne View Post
I don't think I made post #22 but please post the quote where I speculated? ....
Well unless someone has hacked your account, you made post #22.

In fairness your post(s) are more in the nature of stated "facts", despite not having been in the plane when the engine reportedly failed, rather than "speculation".

Quote:
.... All I'm trying to do is explain there are endless possible scenarios of what could have happened & almost certainly wrong. .....
And so you have been helpfully providing examples?
__________________
As quoted in the Grauniad.
Pulaski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 5th 2017, 6:32 pm   #33
Ingles Male
BE Forum Addict
 
Ingles's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2009
Location: Alcobaça
Posts: 2,314
Ingles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Stupidity killed 2 people

Quote:
Originally Posted by EMR View Post
It's the Algarve Daily news, not known for the high level of its journalistic comment.

Has any fluent Portuguese reader actually seen the interview with the pilot,?
NO !
And it's because, once blame is attributed as too "who" or "what" caused the engine to stop functioning, there will surely be Court Proceedings issued by the families who lost there kin.

+ The Pilots flippant comment "I'm not sorry I landed on the beach" is going to come back to haunt him I hope.
__________________
War is always the choice of the chosen,
Who won't have to fight !

Last edited by Ingles; Sep 5th 2017 at 6:37 pm. Reason: spelling
Ingles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 5th 2017, 6:45 pm   #34
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: central Portugal
Posts: 3,511
mfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Stupidity killed 2 people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulaski View Post
Well unless someone has hacked your account, you made post #22.

In fairness your post(s) are more in the nature of stated "facts", despite not having been in the plane when the engine reportedly failed, rather than "speculation".


And so you have been helpfully providing examples?
OK. I was reading the post number below the post as referring to that post & I should have been reading the number above it....... Sorry for the confusion.

However, that post says:

"Trust me when I say he might have had some control but he won't have had anything like full control & the weight of that engine plus two adult men plus low altitude & a hot day would have meant that as soon as he lost power, that aircraft would have the handling characteristics of a house brick & no matter how good the pilot is, he or she can never defeat the rules of physics.

There are endless possibilities but as I keep saying, it's never a good idea to try to outguess an air accident investigation.

I don't know if the investigation has been completed or if it has or will be made public but I'd be interested to read it's conclusions"

Now what part of that statement is speculation?

As I see it that is a statement of fact.

Last edited by mfesharne; Sep 5th 2017 at 7:22 pm.
mfesharne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 5th 2017, 7:37 pm   #35
EMR 
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 18,404
EMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Stupidity killed 2 people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingles View Post
NO !
And it's because, once blame is attributed as too "who" or "what" caused the engine to stop functioning, there will surely be Court Proceedings issued by the families who lost there kin.

+ The Pilots flippant comment "I'm not sorry I landed on the beach" is going to come back to haunt him I hope.
Did he say it in English ?
Or is just a journalists interpretation ?
Someone must know ?
EMR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 5th 2017, 7:55 pm   #36
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
mrken30's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Portlandia Metro
Posts: 6,651
mrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Stupidity killed 2 people

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfesharne View Post
OK. I was reading the post number below the post as referring to that post & I should have been reading the number above it....... Sorry for the confusion.

However, that post says:

"Trust me when I say he might have had some control but he won't have had anything like full control & the weight of that engine plus two adult men plus low altitude & a hot day would have meant that as soon as he lost power, that aircraft would have the handling characteristics of a house brick & no matter how good the pilot is, he or she can never defeat the rules of physics.

There are endless possibilities but as I keep saying, it's never a good idea to try to outguess an air accident investigation.

I don't know if the investigation has been completed or if it has or will be made public but I'd be interested to read it's conclusions"

Now what part of that statement is speculation?

As I see it that is a statement of fact.
Not quite, it has a 7:1 glide ratio. All pilots practice power off landings during their training. Landing on water, especially the sea is a last resort , especially if you do not have sea plane endorsement. The problem would be to get maximum range you need a tail wind, to get lowest ground speed on landing you need a head wind. The plane is still perfectly flyable with no engine power.
__________________
A still tongue is a wise tongue, pity anout the fingers
mrken30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 5th 2017, 8:20 pm   #37
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: central Portugal
Posts: 3,511
mfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Stupidity killed 2 people

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrken30 View Post
Not quite, it has a 7:1 glide ratio. All pilots practice power off landings during their training. Landing on water, especially the sea is a last resort , especially if you do not have sea plane endorsement. The problem would be to get maximum range you need a tail wind, to get lowest ground speed on landing you need a head wind. The plane is still perfectly flyable with no engine power.
We'll have to disagee on that I'm afraid.

Any powered aircraft loses a large part of it's flying ability as soon as it's engine(s) fail & (assuming the reports are basically correct) the engine failed soon after take off & from that moment on physics takes over...... sure, the instructor pilot can take over & make the most of what he has available but the rules of physics can never be beaten.

If an aircraft with a failed engine remained 'perfectly flyable' it'd still be in the air & working on the same principle US1549 wouldn't have had to go down on the Hudson river.

The rules of physics can never be beaten.
mfesharne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 5th 2017, 9:36 pm   #38
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
mrken30's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Portlandia Metro
Posts: 6,651
mrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Stupidity killed 2 people

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfesharne View Post
We'll have to disagee on that I'm afraid.

Any powered aircraft loses a large part of it's flying ability as soon as it's engine(s) fail & (assuming the reports are basically correct) the engine failed soon after take off & from that moment on physics takes over...... sure, the instructor pilot can take over & make the most of what he has available but the rules of physics can never be beaten.

If an aircraft with a failed engine remained 'perfectly flyable' it'd still be in the air & working on the same principle US1549 wouldn't have had to go down on the Hudson river.

The rules of physics can never be beaten.
It becomes a glider, but not a very good one. However thermals do help. It's not like a car that becomes almost impossible to steer or brake because of failed hydraulics. The Hudson incident is a little different because the plane has a lot of assisted controls unlike a cessna that uses cables.
__________________
A still tongue is a wise tongue, pity anout the fingers
mrken30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 5th 2017, 9:43 pm   #39
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: central Portugal
Posts: 3,511
mfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Stupidity killed 2 people

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrken30 View Post
It becomes a glider, but not a very good one. However thermals do help. It's not like a car that becomes almost impossible to steer or brake because of failed hydraulics. The Hudson incident is a little different because the plane has a lot of assisted controls unlike a cessna that uses cables.
Precious little usable thermals at that height in that aircraft etc & no need of an APU for that aircraft..... The physics are (as always) the ruling factor

Last edited by mfesharne; Sep 5th 2017 at 9:58 pm.
mfesharne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 5th 2017, 9:58 pm   #40
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
mrken30's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Portlandia Metro
Posts: 6,651
mrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond reputemrken30 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Stupidity killed 2 people

Exactly, if the pilot got to 1000ft agl, he would have to find a landing spot up to just over a mile away within 30 degrees either side. Realistically it's less than a mile because you check for fuel, mixture, carb heat, magnetos,master, primer before you check for somewhere to land.
__________________
A still tongue is a wise tongue, pity anout the fingers
mrken30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 5th 2017, 10:09 pm   #41
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: central Portugal
Posts: 3,511
mfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond reputemfesharne has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Stupidity killed 2 people

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrken30 View Post
Exactly, if the pilot got to 1000ft agl, he would have to find a landing spot up to just over a mile away within 30 degrees either side. Realistically it's less than a mile because you check for fuel, mixture, carb heat, magnetos,master, primer before you check for somewhere to land.
Exactly my point. He has little control or options after the engine quit & can only take advantage of what the rules of physics decree & I'd guess he didn't make anything like 1000 ft agl..... so rather than hurl unprovable blame let's wait for the conclusions of the investigation?
mfesharne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 12th 2017, 4:19 pm   #42
Ingles Male
BE Forum Addict
 
Ingles's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2009
Location: Alcobaça
Posts: 2,314
Ingles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Stupidity killed 2 people

Quote:
Originally Posted by EMR View Post
Did he say it in English ?
Or is just a journalists interpretation ?
Someone must know ?
This was reported in PT Press !
__________________
War is always the choice of the chosen,
Who won't have to fight !
Ingles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 12th 2017, 5:11 pm   #43
EMR 
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 18,404
EMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Stupidity killed 2 people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingles View Post
This was reported in PT Press !
Not disputing that.
Was the report in English correct ?
EMR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 13th 2017, 10:09 am   #44
Ingles Male
BE Forum Addict
 
Ingles's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2009
Location: Alcobaça
Posts: 2,314
Ingles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond reputeIngles has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Stupidity killed 2 people

Quote:
Originally Posted by EMR View Post
Not disputing that.
Was the report in English correct ?
Why don't you find out yourself !
__________________
War is always the choice of the chosen,
Who won't have to fight !
Ingles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 13th 2017, 2:37 pm   #45
EMR 
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 18,404
EMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond reputeEMR has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Stupidity killed 2 people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingles View Post
Why don't you find out yourself !
I do not speak Portuguese , nor would rely on Google translate.
I would hope that one of our fluent Portuguese speakers would know..
EMR is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   British Expats / Living & Moving Abroad / Europe / Portugal


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 6:49 pm.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered by vBulletin: ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 1999-2010 BritishExpats.com