lagosguy

"Everything like this is chaotic until it settles (I remember the "Congestion Charge Chaos" headlines when the congestion charge started in London), but no amount of complaining is going to stop it happening. Portugal HAS to make extra money, especially now it is indebted to the rest of the EU."


The congestion charge was a piece of cake compared to this. I live in Central London so I was seriously affected when the western extension was introduced. At that time, as when the initial charge was introduced, the vast majority of those affected had masses of advance information telling them exactly what was going to happen and, even though the numbers affected were very considerable, they were generally the same people affected time and time again. Visitors to London tend not to bring their own vehicles with them, or even hire vehicles, because the traffic is so nightmarish: they tend (and are encouraged) to use public transport.

The situation in the Algarve couldn't be more different from London. Those who are going to be most affected in the summer season are tourists. They will be coming for short visits and will probably have little or no knowledge of the toll system before they arrive. They will be utterly dependent on the car hire companies to help them through the mysteries of the toll system and, certainly when the tolls were due to be introduced in June, the car hire companies hadn't a clue themselves.

On another forum a poster tells how he received two credit card debits after he returned to the UK, because he used a toll road around Porto without realising it. The toll was miniscule. The fine was larger. and the admin charge levied by the car hire company made the overall charge truly horrendous. If that happens to dozens or hundreds of tourists, the impact on the tourist trade could be significant.

I am struck by the attitude displayed by some ex-pats that, because they have to pay the toll, so should the tourists. This is such a short-sighted view. Without tourism, the economy of the Algarve would collapse and the impact on the lives of ex-pats would be seriously undermined. Hotels and restaurants would close and taxes would increase to fill the public funding void.

It's not even as if this is going to raise vast amounts of money. Monkeynut says that he won't hire cars at the airport any more. Nor shall I. That means I probably shan't hire one at all, because, once I am in Lagos, I can cope without one. I am but one person; but if others take the same line, and if tourists decide to find other ways of getting round, the impact on the hire companies could be severe and that would reduce the taxes they pay to the government.

If I do hire a car, I shall use the N125 to get around, as will many others who want to avoid the tolls. That will adversely impact on the lives of those people who live along that dreadful road, to say nothing of the increased cost of maintaining the road and the cost of the higher number of accidents that will inevitably occur.

This really is a stupid idea and the fact that it is being introduced demonstrates the failure of those in authority to recognise or accept that the Algarve is significantly different from other parts of Portugal and that, for the benefit of the country as a whole, it needs to be treated differently.

Boris Johnson is seeking to make a similar argument to the UK government regarding the status of London. For years the Labour government raided London, in order to bribe its core voters in the north. As a result spending on London is far smaller in proportion to the wealth it generate. Boris is arguing that, if a better balance is not struck, London's status as a wealth producer will be undermined and the whole country will suffer. He isn't having much luck because, outside London, nobody wants to hear that and, if they do hear it, nobody will acknowledge that it's true. Does the Algarve have a Boris Johnson making the same argument? If not it desperately needs one.

newintavira

I don't entirely disagree with some of your points, BUT I do take issue with this:

"I am struck by the attitude displayed by some ex-pats that, because they have to pay the toll, so should the tourists. This is such a short-sighted view. Without tourism, the economy of the Algarve would collapse and the impact on the lives of ex-pats would be seriously undermined. Hotels and restaurants would close and taxes would increase to fill the public funding void. "

Given that the decision has been made that the tolls ARE going to be implemented (in fact I think that going forward with them is one of the "must do's" as part of the bail-out package) how could it be IN ANY WAY fair if the tourists don't pay, and us local residents do? After all we contribute to the economy of the Algarve, every single day, and pay all of our taxes here.

This isn't me being short-sighted...every time I travel on the A22 I am struck by the fact that there are so few cars on it most of the time that, as you say, there really isn't a vast amount of money to be made, but these are the cards that have been dealt. Local protests haven't stopped this progressing, not has people trashing the gantries - if that direct action has made no difference, I doubt a couple of people refusing to hire cars anymore is going to.

Joao

I think you will find that a lot more local people who work in the Algrave and have to travel to work will move from the A22 to the EN125 because of the cost (no matter how small). Even a small increase in their cost of living will be of some consequence to they way they manage their life style.
But we will see once it is implemented.
Joao

Jur

Oh, that´s just great!

lagosguy

"Given that the decision has been made that the tolls ARE going to be implemented (in fact I think that going forward with them is one of the "must do's" as part of the bail-out package) how could it be IN ANY WAY fair if the tourists don't pay, and us local residents do? After all we contribute to the economy of the Algarve, every single day, and pay all of our taxes here."

We'll have to agree to differ. Many large cities worldwide have special rate travel cards for tourists which aren't available to residents. The residents accept that. It's not about fairness: it's part of what tourist-dependent economies have to do to keep competitive. If the Algarve imposes additional costs on tourists, whose holiday spending money is already under strain, there is the risk of driving them away to somewhere cheaper next year. For western Algarve the prospects are particularly worrying. Room-occupancy statistics already show that Lagos hotels do less well in the low season than those in east and central Algarve. That trend will only become more pronounced if fewer tourists venture west of Albufeira because of the cost of driving there.

"I think you will find that a lot more local people who work in the Algrave and have to travel to work will move from the A22 to the EN125 because of the cost (no matter how small). Even a small increase in their cost of living will be of some consequence to they way they manage their life style."

I'll be surprised if the airport transit coaches and shuttles don't take to the N125 as well. So we could have the ludicrous situation where the motorway standard A22 is even more empty than it already is most of the time west of Albufeira and the largely single-carriageway N125 is gridlocked.

This is what happens when governments and large organisations faced with funding reductions go looking for easy ways to raise income and either don't have the time or don't take the trouble to think through the consequences. They end up increasing their costs by far more than the income they generate.

sagalaut

OK, so you have cars and camper vans touring Europe. They cross the bridge at Ayamonte, now what?
Who is going to tell them what's going on further down the road when they see the toll signs. Yes we need to pay, but how?
Not only that, but if you see a sign which is confusing, the natural reaction is to suddenly slow down. Another accident blackspot?
Happy holidays all!
Another portuguese party in the brewery.

lennox

I agree that the locals can ill afford to pay tolls to go to work, but using the E125 could end up as false economy. Think about it. We all use the E125 and are gridlock, resulting in longer journeys and more fuel costs. One needs to step back and weigh up which is more cost effective. The price of fuel these days is not to be ignored. Sad but true.
Regarding PT government decisions on all sorts of things, come to England and see the pantomine we have here with our new goverment. Not to mention journalists behaviour and the police giving them payments for such behaviour. Its a funny old world and its frightening to see where we will end up.
On that note I know where I would rather be. Long summers in PT win every time.

nigel.b

Lagosguy says:
"Many large cities worldwide have special rate travel cards for tourists which aren't available to residents. The residents accept that."
I've travelled a bit and I'm not aware of any travel bargains where you have to prove you are NOT a resident. Tell me I'm wrong.

What Portugal is trying to do is impose tolls (which everyone accepts in Spain, France...) without a simple human or even machine interface. Trying to be too clever. Maybe they will pursue foreign registered cars - financas certainly pursues people long after they have left Portugal.

EsuriJohn

If you look at the position of the overhead cameras it is very significant. They are before the "OFF SLIP ROAD" when travelling east to west ie. from Ayamonte. There are no camaras on any slip roads that I have seen. From that I deduce that the charge starts after the on slip at the Monte Gordo junction ( you cannot pass the charge point if you did not travel from at least Monte Gordo). So we can cross the bridge and travel free to Castro Marim jct and also to Monte Gordo jct but any futher costs. There are no camaras on the aiport link at Faro so at the rates I have seen recently on the other thread I estimate about €2.50 for the one way journey to the airport. This is a lot lesss than first thought. The price boards are up but covered over one very windy day the cover had shifted just enough to see the tarrif but I did not clock it silly me.

EsuriJohn

Went over to Irish Republic by ferry recently and heading for Cork saw a big sign saying now entering toll road NO TOLL BOOTHS so having read all the stuff on here realised that it was an overhead camera system. Bit futher on saw a sign about website but did not get the web address. On arrival at friends asked what we should do. They just logged on and entered our numberplate and paid the €3 ish for us job done so easy and no fines to expect in the post.

Perhaps the Irish are not so thick as portrayed by some TV programmes and the Portuguese could take a leaf out of their book!

somanyhands

The aussies do a similar thing. Luckily our hire car company gave us a flyer and told us we'd have 7 days (I think) to log on and pay any tolls we accrued (by providing license number)

It's not rocket science but it does seem like the PT system (and the hire car companies) need a rocket up their asses to get something in place

Jon-Bxl

After reading some of the posts on the last 2 pages, I personally accept paying the tolls - and understand that any help the government can get from us visitors contributing to 'austerity measures' is Ok, I suppose.

However there are practical issues that make this a concern - and potentially expensive. When one adds admin charges, open credit cards etc. Here are some of the points in my earlier post

http://britishexpats.com/forum/showp...&postcount=242

We found a considerable difference in our travel costs this time... far more expensive to fly to Faro and rent at Faro with several companies. So we will fly to Seville and rent there... the saving is well into 3 figures for us.

Then of course we will have a Spanish car coming into Portugal and have the additional hassles of that over and above the link above!

Gluttons for punishment!

Not looking forward to it and I do think this lack of a practical method will discourage travellers (As said earlier in this thread) ... and is NOT what Portugal needs - I know of more than one poster that is staying away till all this is properly resolved.

Thanks
Jon

Domino

ever wondered why the weather maps on Spanish TV leave a big blank bit where Portugal is ? ?

DickieJarv

Just one question - as the first cameras at the moment from the Spanish border are just before the Tavira Off Slip Road, how can they stop you from leaving the motorway at the Tavira junction and not paying anything?

EsuriJohn

They read your number plate as you pass the gantry. If you have the transponder that then has the charge deducted from your account and cancels the photo. The car must have travelled from at least the Monte Gordo jct. so you will be charged at least that distance. No transponder tnen the photo will be read and you will get a charge.