TheEmperorIsNaked

Ahhh Chris! We get on I think, I mean no offence kiddo, but I would hate this said to me by an Australian.

I'm sorry, I could have gone further but I didn't, and I won't. This is not balance is it?, this is frustration I think.
Discretion is one thing-but not being able to say anything is entirely another.

Very gracious Still.

Almo

I hope I didn't sound pious or censorious Emperor, and I certainly don't mean to imply no one should complain, I truly am sorry for those who had bad experiences in Australia, just as I'm sorry about Still's experiences in the UK. But, just as none of the posters not enjoying Australia should feel they can't post to that effect, nor should those of us who didn't have a terrible time feel afraid to pop our heads above the parapet.

TheEmperorIsNaked

Without question that is absolutely true. Unfortunately though this debate has very much a kind of chicken and egg scenario to it.

It has been my enduring and I mean enduring, experience that when people really open up that they are not/did not 'live the dream', it incurs criticism which can be both overt or covert.

I have to say though that BE patrons are not as caustic of negative views of Aus, as other places... That I feel is completely down to the management team. In all cases/places.

Still Game

Tbh, I'm damned sad that this has happened to you.

Thanks :-)




You know I cannot send you my (so called by me) rants, don't you? Believe it or not, I have no wish to offend.

No probs completely understand. I have zero rose glasses on Oz so probably would agree with what you would say!



All in all UK has great things about it and so does OZ. and both countries have crap things too.

chris955

Yes I wholeheartedly agree with your last statement, the management are the ones that should set the tone and if need be nip nonsense in the bud, elsewhere it seems that this does not happen. Actually SEEMS isnt the right word as I know from experience this is the case. This forum is a breath of fresh air.

chris955

To be fair it was very tongue in cheek and certainly no offense was meant.

Still Game

I didn't take offense, however did think it was a slightly odd thing to say when I had obviously been pretty frank and shared not so nice experiences that weren't fun at the time.

Anyway, no matter. I probably shared too much.

J.JsOH

Or reply with a snidey comment, or ignorantly turn her back as I have experienced from some smug middle aged English middle / upper class women. It is the elders that are chatty and pleasant in my experience.

TheEmperorIsNaked

I gave this a lot of thought last night (Aus). I wondered why I found it so annoying, (and of course you know full well I did!)

I have changed my mind about this so-called 'fairness and balance'. I know what really irks me about this.

This entire section deals with those returning to the UK. The problem that always arises is when folks start to say WHY they want to return. Some of those reasons are less than flattering, and may well be inflammatory ( to long held notions..), but they are certainly not defamatory.

The title of this thread is 'Welcome Mat'. There was a clear acknowledgment by the OP that there may-may be a reason for some returnees to have valid concerns. (God! To this point this is groundhog day; I had this discussion so many times before).

The point is, that unless those opinions are defamatory, people are entitled to express them!
Then of course others stand on their democratic right to respond in defence of Australia.

Here's the rub: I don't believe for a nanosecond that either 'side' in this incessant scurry will deny one pertinent thing; Australia has been 'marketed' for years as the dream; sun/surf/sand etc. This has been done by both Governments/by Australians who,-unlike the British-generally do not run down their country/by recent and longterm UK migrants/by many UK residents who want to come to Aus.

Now take a look at the UK. It is incessantly ridiculed by Australian media/by many of its people/ by its tabloids etc,.....you get the drift.
This is undeniable. It's undeniable. The focus thus IS that in this UK/Aus debate the positive is Aus; the negative UK.

It is from that vantage point that all discussion ensues. That's the pivotal issue.
If that were not the case, then why are people who have the brass necked temerity to actually be happy having returned to the UK, and who say so, continually accused of having 'rose tinted glasses'/'being in the honeymoon phrase'? (and I stress this terminology is used on more than just this forum-the same terminology!)

Now turn that the other way. How many British settlers who have just come to Australia and are happy with their decision, are accused of having 'rose tints' etc?

This is only an issue for those who actually dare to find Australia less than perfect. It has bugger all to do with fairness and balance!

Australia is not a 'bloodsport' for both UK migrants or Australians. The United Kingdom IS-and you damn well know it!

(There is a blurb for some prog going out today; food I think. This verbal diarrhea says 'we all know that UK cuisine has improved..'etc (not verbatim). It is utter ongoing unmitigated crap! Regional food of the UK is second to none.....but that's just me being defensive isn't it? This thing is structured to a 'can't win' scenario)

The British tabloids; they who have a much wider following than the individual, should hang their vacuous heads in shame. They have handed a lead pipe to so many here and in the UK to bash the UK senseless.

(And of course to say this further compounds things. My 'defence' is a sure sign that I am also wearing rose tints! Use your noggin', it is nothing of the kind!! It is simply pointing out an entrenched status quo that sees it as fine to bag the UK, but not to be happy there).


So NO, I don't think any individual has the right to say 'well I'm just providing a balance'. You are not; you are simply not going to allow people who are happy to return to the UK, and along with millions there are happy; 1) just to be happy in the UK, but 2) more importantly, to point out why they were unhappy in Australia.

It has got to the absurd stage that many have to 'qualify' their desire to return with the 'I did like it in Aus-had friends' etc, to mollify the inevitable criticism.

(YES-for many a true feeling, but not for all. In another place someone had taken a drubbing, and then qualified any further posts with 'it's not like I didn't like Aus'. I questioned that change and got a poignant pm saying it stopped the attacks. How bloody sad).

You have the democratic right to provide your so-called 'balance', but you do not have the moral right.

Until and unless people start saying Australians are $%$@!!, then I suggest you butt out and leave people who are returning to the UK to express themselves freely in this one area of the forum. You have your area-it is not invaded by returnees to the UK suggesting 'By God! this and that is wrong with Australia/rose tints/honeymoon.

Balance? Rubbish! This whole issue is based on a positive Australia and a negative UK, that allows for criticism only one way.

Returning to the UK/posts/reasons why/and then criticism of those returning for their naivety/......and the inevitable negative experiences in the UK.

Am I saying you can't do that? No. I'm saying you do that every time in response.

Why not go onto to the Australian forum, and join in with those who are so happy to come to/are settled in Australia-and discuss their reasons for leaving the UK, and what you found negative about it?

You have my word I will not come there and talk about all the positives in the UK, and be critical of you as 'honeymooning/rose tints' in Australia?

And I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

jocksternhcle

This post has certainly brought out firmly held positions. A forum such as this provides a wonderful opportunity to air these views in a virtual environment - given the passion of the perspectives I congratulate all on the composure shown to date.

I too have been reflecting on the recent posts and they have reminded me of the one "niggle" I had when working in UK cities - particularly the big one.
I worked in Finance and particularly in Banking and Insurance. During my assignments I felt welcome and appreciated. I did however sense that there would be a limit to my progress within the larger corporations with whom I worked. Nothing overt but at a senior level there was always a propensity by the English to refer to past schooling or University - not academic achievement - rather simply attendance at Institutions I assumed were meant to be respected and meritous. Many of my work colleagues were clearly from "old money" and were "connected".

Does an element of this still exist in the UK particularly London? Is it changing?

Almo

Actually, I genuinely had no idea.

Have I honestly suggested otherwise?

Please tell me where I've suggested anything about rose tinted glasses or the honeymoon period. Not that I need to justify myself to you, but my most recent post other than in this thread was to tell someone to give her return to the UK longer rather than leaving to go back overseas.

In the Australia forum? Oh it happens, believe me.

Like me, you mean? Someone who found Australia less than perfect?

I've never accused you of having rose tinted glasses. I don't believe I have ever suggested you shouldn't move back to the UK.



Where have I sought to stop people doing so?

Where is my area? What is my area? In fact, Emperor, what is my position on the UK vs Australia since you profess to know me so well as to know exactly what I'm thinking? Who put you in charge of who can post where?

I posted a recent update in the 'are things as bad as they seem' thread which you apparently loved. What did I criticise there?

I found nothing negative about the UK that caused me to leave.

I'm sorry you have taken so against me Emperor. I don't post on any forum to wind people up and I don't believe anyone here would say I take any pleasure in people being unhappy where they live, whatever country that is. This post has really upset me and I can't see how you intended it to be anything other than upsetting.

TheEmperorIsNaked

This question could validly and appropriately be asked in the Australian forum. It would be something that those who see Aus as the preferable location (and that's all good), to respond to. They must have had concerns about the UK to have migrated here!

Instead this can be now used in the Returning to the UK forum, as a tool to say 'this is the case' (it may well be!), 'this is why I can't understand why people want to return to the UK/ class system' etc.
Or some variation thereof.

It is simply yet another tool to justify why Australia is better than the UK.

I'm not saying don't ask this Jock, I'm saying that this forum is for those returning to a place they left months or years ago.

Why isn't the question asked of those who had reason to leave the UK.
Surely they can give you an honest answer?

Hell's teeth! Can't anyone see what I'm saying?

________________________________________________

Almo: you seriously think my post was levelled at you personally? Seriously?

I stand by everything I wrote. I should have written it ages ago.

__________________________________________________ _____

'You' was meant generally NOT specifically.

chris955

What an absolutely brilliant post and spot on in all cases.

I read a week or so ago that I couldnt really know I am happy because of this 'honeymoon period'. Here I am kidding myself totally unaware that I actually need to be here for 2 years or maybe its 3 years before I know if I am happy or not. As you say though someone comes on after a week and expresses how deleriously happy they are in Australia and it is congratulations all round.
It seems perfectly fine to say Australia is a fantastic country but if you say the same about the UK people will jump on you and say that maybe where you live is but not where they lived.
I actual do love Australia generally, Im not saying it for balance but in so many ways for US the people have wrecked it by making it an overregulated, insecure nanny state. JUST MY VIEW.
I could write pages but I wont.

chris955

Almo, it was clear to me the Emporers post wasnt directed at you.

TheEmperorIsNaked

I am now spending time in the Australian forum. I won't post there, but I would like to see if Almo has a valid point of this in reverse.

(Almo: if my post had been directed at you personally, then I'm fully aware that it would seem blistering. It was not I assure you. I do not do that length of post to one individual, if I did then I could be rightly be accused of having an absolute vendetta! I have not).