the troubadour

I am far from convinced that Germany may be more suitable in this case. Needs to be a greater reason for relocating there than because of not liking England or the English.

the troubadour

Like I suggested England is a very diverse country with views to match.
More than a few English would agree with a whole range of aspects mentioned in your thread.
Another very positive attribute to the cultural makeup of the English.

the troubadour

Perhaps it is a result of over emphasis on materialism full stop. Things will not make up for other defects in a society.

the troubadour

Police in the UK have ample powers to deal with situations as they arise. I for one would prefer the police to be accountable to uphold the law themseles and not to administer quick justice as they see fit.
All in positions of power must always be accountable for their actions. Other wise we do have a break down of society and values.

This has happened with the poor examples set by politicians and the financial industry to date.

the troubadour

Germany does perhaps have some reason to fear what may happen if the numbers of East Europeans swell to the numbers some think.
Now that folk from the East will have full rights to enter work, live and in time use the German social security system it may in time make this system unworkable.

katjoeuk

Troubadour - I'm a German living (and loving it!!!) in the UK, so feel competent to comment on this issue, and I have to say, i couldn't agree with you more!! not sure about the greater sense of family life, but maybe that's just me (I, personally, am not a big family person!).
I don't want to sound harsh, but I sometimes feel that a lot of Eastern Europeans have some rather unrealistic ideas when they emigrate to a Western country, expecting to immediately enjoy the same standard of life as the "Westerners" (and also often falsely labouring under the assumption that ALL of us are very well-off, which is obviously NOT the case - neither in the UK nor in Germany!!). This phenomenon actualy very much reminds me of when the two Germanies reunited and we had the same problems with the East Germans (17 million of them, most of them hoping to have flash cars, bit TVs etcetc within weeks!!).
On the one hand one can't really blame people for seeking a better life for themselves, but on the other hand, it takes a lot of resilience and hard to work to achieve things in life (unless you're lucky enough to have been born with a silver spoon in your mouth :-)). So, frankly, it irks me to read posts like that of the OP, and in my opinion, she is also very unrealistic if she thinks she'll be better off in Germany -my experience has been that they seem a lot more welcome and accepted here in the UK than back home, where a lot of people really sort of look down upon them (which is obviously not nice or fair....a lot of them are very hard-working). Poles, for example, are considered a bit thick and have a reputation for stealing cars....I'm assuming the OP is from Poland!! They also usually have to take crappy jobs like cleaning, so if she has an office job here, she can consider herself lucky, I think!!

I also cannot believe that she's reallly met with all that hostility here - I've had nothing but positive experiences, and I'm from the country that is probably still hated most here in the UK (unfortunately)

I loved it here and am heartbroken to have to move away (to the States) at the end of the month!! Brits, don't let anyone - especially someone who's NOT from the UK!! - tell you otherwise, you have a lovely country with lovely people (and your share of problems,too, of course,just like anyone else!!)

Katrin

katjoeuk

Agreed, but I think it's more a problem of there been such a deep divide between the haves and the not-haves these days - much more so than used to be the case (can't really speak for the UK here, but that's certainly true for Germany; when I was growing up, we always prided ourselves in our vast middle-class, which enveloped most of the population, so there was less reason for discontent.)

Everyone wants a certainly level of material security, and I guess when you feel it's totally out of your reach, then you've got nothing to lose, really, do you?? I'm not at all trying to justify the riots, don't get me wrong - I think it was a vile, vile thing to do, esp. since it didn't really affect the super rich in Chelsea and Knightsbridge etc.

What do you think about police presence? Do you think we need a stronger one, and one that has more powers to act?? I'd be interested in hearing your view on this; I personally think that maybe we do? To draw a comparison with Germany - I'm not at all surprised that this happened in Berlin and not, for example, in Munich. Bavaria has a bit of a reputation for being a "police state", but incidentally, it also has the lowest crime rate.......

Assanah

I don't think that police alone is responsible for low crime rates and decent behaviour of its inhabitants. I think this has more to do with the general attitude of Bavarians. Society, parents, teachers, neighbours etc. all need to define boundaries. I think Bavarians manage a good balance of tolerance and boundaries. Not like Berlin where everybody looks the other way because you have to be tolerant of all and everybody.
If you compare the number of police officers in Munich and Berlin you will see that Munich doesn't have that much more police officers. Wikipedia states:
München: number of police employees 6.800; inhabitants 1,6 million
Berlin: 21.000 police employees with 16.000 actually being police officers, inhabitants 3,5 million.

katjoeuk

Agreed. Berlin is a special case. Bit lawless, I guess

the troubadour

Hi Katrin,
Firstly I do hope you return to The Germany Forum to inform us of your experiences in the USA when you get there.

My view with regards to the former DDR was that the process of capitalism should have been introduced over a period of time and the original state allowed to operate something akin to the Hong Kong example put in place by China. One China two systems.

I guess Kohl wanted his big moment that would allow him to be remembered in the history books after a very average stay in power.

Just how long is the Unification Tax going to go on for? The cost to West Germans has been enormous. I can only sense the anger average German taxpayers must feel having to bail out nation after nation who failed to manage their economies effectively.

East Europeans were no doubt used in many cases in the UK as cheap labour being rather good workers, but I guess as times move on the newer crop of arrivals expect better things than previous arrivals.

The situation changed of course when Poland became a EU member so those folk can now work legally.This was not the case when I lived in England.

Also doubt very much if a single East European country was anywhere near ready to come into the EU as was the case in earlier years with the Southern Countries. The idea is fine but not the timing.

I have heard all to often comments by Poles and others with regards to just how lazy, stupid, ill mannered, the English are too give it much thought as always believed it more to be a release of frustrations than anything much else.
Many in fact could experience rather Polish lives in London owing to numbers. One thing is they had some great parties and even taking into account their cons and schemes to make money not always legally I actually made some very good Polish friends from those days with whom I remain in contact with although have been some years now on the other side of the world.

Germany being closer with better conditions than UK can be expected to attract many Easterners. It may well overtake the UK quickly in being the prime desination.
Berlin already has noticable Polish/ Czech/Russian populations forming. Have heard that the Russian Mafia is established in some German cities but to what degree have no knowledge.

Don't imagine greater numbers will be welcomed by average Germans at all. Especially now that Europe looks to be about to go through some very hard times over the next few years.

the troubadour

I am afraid that the ranks of the middle class are being squeezed everywhere.
I think what was vile at least in my mind is the excessive abuse of position by UK politicians with the recent scandals along with the complete lack of accountability from within the financial sector.
Far more harmful than a bit of urban discontent. No i'm not one fot giving police unlimited powers. Such a position is usually used on the most powerless of society.
At the end of the day perhaps the only thing feared by the powerful is the loss of control on the streets.
Baveria has a different population makeup as well as how and where people live, as well as a Federal Social Security System that is still fairy good.

the troubadour

Very much agree. Society in a way defines the boundaries. UK has a very high rate of broken families, young single mothers and difficult inner city living conditions.
Berlin is perhaps the closest but perhaps a little more like London twenty odd years ago when there was a political dimension evident.

the troubadour

Or free spirited and open minded. Great place to be.

katjoeuk

I couldn't agree more with everything you say - in fact, I could have said it (though maybe not as articulately as you )!!!
Germany has always been a big destination for Eastern Europeans, partly because it's closer, partly because of claimed family-ties, partly because I guess in some ways, they felt we had more in common with them (being central European and all, but I actually don't agree with that. East Germany, maybe, but the rest - not in my opinion, not after the war anway!), and I guess it's a fair assessment to say that for a lot of us Germans, there have always been too many Eastern Europeans in Germany. It probably sounds harsh, but they really weren't particularly wanted!! We were rather relieved when the UK allowed them to travel to, work and reside in the UK straight away after they joined the EU; Germany put a sort of hold on that for I don't remember how many years - was it something like 8 years? I think people were afraid that if that wasn't in place, we'd just get totally swamped by them, a bit like what happened with East GErmans after the wall came down. I personally don't understand why the UK did that, and I think it was a big mistake - I guess they didn't reckon with such numbers coming over!! When I go to my local ASDA in Gloucester (I live in Cheltenham which is next door), they have a Polish food section - and their "NO EXIT" signs on the doors are actually in POLISH FIRST, then in English!!!!!!!! I know that's just a minor detail, but rather revealing, I think.
Having said all of that, I have come across some really nice Polish people here, can't really say anything bad about any of them - what I like is that they seem to have a little more self-confidence than what I was used to from back home. But that may have changed, too - haven't been living in Germany for quite a while now. The thing is that if you come across all meek and I'm-not-worthyish, then obviously nobody will respect you, so good on them if they've acquired a bit more self-confidence!! I'm sure they deserve it

I'm very torn in these matters - on the one hand, I have a great life and can fully understand why others want that, too and are trying to make that happen by displacing themselves; on the other hand, the "rich" countries won't be able to cope in the long run if too much immigration is allowed.
Tough issue, and once again, I'm very happy that I'm not a politician, deciding over those matters!!

katjoeuk

PS: It was total LUNACY to let all those southern and south-eastern countries into the EU!! That will probably be it's downfall. Shame, too, as the original idea was great, and the original group of strong countries could have been a serious competitor for the US and China.............