A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam
May 18th 2009, 4:07 pm
#16
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Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam
If you must look at the world from the viewpoint of a fanboy, anti-this, pro-that, based on emotion without any kind thoughtful analysis, you need to at least correct your statement to say: anti-opaque FX brokers
How do you figure?
I've pointed out quite clearly how it works. If you don't follow, then you're the one that lacks the understanding.
Precisely the problem. It could be more transparent, but it's not. What's not in your agreement is how much your broker's bank siphons for inbound and outbound wire transfers. This is how the scam works:
http://money.wikia.com/wiki/Legal_scam:_Wire_Siphoning
How do you figure?
I've pointed out quite clearly how it works. If you don't follow, then you're the one that lacks the understanding.
http://money.wikia.com/wiki/Legal_scam:_Wire_Siphoning
Last edited by jgombos; May 18th 2009 at 4:12 pm.
May 19th 2009, 3:16 am
#17
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,782
Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam
Most forex brokers will claim wire transfers are free, but they'll make an arrangement with their bank where the bank grabs money as it funds or leaves the forex account. Customers don't know they've been scammed until after the money appears in their brokerage account, short of what was sent from a SEPA bank to a SEPA bank. The European financial system seems to have no defense against this scam.
Has anyone confirmed by way of experience any forex brokers that are not running this type of scam?
Has anyone confirmed by way of experience any forex brokers that are not running this type of scam?
www.currencyonline.com
They are part of the HiFX group (they have a banner on this site). They are run by the Bank of New Zealand and state their tranfer fees up-front which are quite reasonable.
May 19th 2009, 8:58 am
#18
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 213
Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam
If you must look at the world from the viewpoint of a fanboy, anti-this, pro-that, based on emotion without any kind thoughtful analysis, you need to at least correct your statement to say: anti-opaque FX brokers
How do you figure?
I've pointed out quite clearly how it works. If you don't follow, then you're the one that lacks the understanding.
Precisely the problem. It could be more transparent, but it's not. What's not in your agreement is how much your broker's bank siphons for inbound and outbound wire transfers. This is how the scam works:
http://money.wikia.com/wiki/Legal_scam:_Wire_Siphoning
How do you figure?
I've pointed out quite clearly how it works. If you don't follow, then you're the one that lacks the understanding.
Precisely the problem. It could be more transparent, but it's not. What's not in your agreement is how much your broker's bank siphons for inbound and outbound wire transfers. This is how the scam works:
http://money.wikia.com/wiki/Legal_scam:_Wire_Siphoning
May 19th 2009, 8:53 pm
#19
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Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam
Of course I have - but unless you can be specific about what you're not understanding, you can't expect folks to help you with whatever concept you're struggling with.
From this statement and other comments you've made in this thread, it's clear that you've made an attempt at getting breadth on the topic, but not depth. You're not focused. You need to be able to isolate different aspects of the market.
Good example. Of course I would want transparency. Although I don't care what the owner pays to the supplier, because the price I pay is what matters to me. But I fully expect to know what my price is. If the store owner quotes me €20, and I agree to pay €20, I'll have good reason to protest if I discover some hidden charges after I've committed. Eg. Merchant tells a client to wire him €20, but then merchants bank (not the clients) siphons off €5, so the merchant then tells the client he only received €15, and must pay the rest before he will fulfill his end of the contract. Of course consumers demand transparency in the costs to the consumer.
Of course. But that's not to say that every method in which they make money is ethical. There are acceptable legitimate ways to make money, and there are unacceptable illegitimate ways. In case you're wondering, misquoting a client is an illegitimate method to make money.
That segment of the transaction is not where the wire siphoning happens. No wonder you're confused. You need to go back and re-read how the wire siphoning scam works.
If your bank takes a fee in Europe, that's a shame, because most banks servicing a retail client don't take any fee from their own client on an inbound wire. But at least you know what your own bank charges you, as you have a business relationship with them. Again, that's another red herring; you need to re-read how the scam works, because it's not the client-facing bank that takes an undisclosed fee from the consumer.
In fact I do have the experience to back up what I'm saying.
Yet you've failed to challenge anything specific. The gross detail I've gone into to expose the full nature of the issue gives you all you need to verify what I've said. It's all verifiable information. You've demonstrated lack of understanding, and you've only made broad claims that amount to "garbage spouting". Try challenging a single claim that I've made, and come up with something factual -- I challenge you.
From this statement and other comments you've made in this thread, it's clear that you've made an attempt at getting breadth on the topic, but not depth. You're not focused. You need to be able to isolate different aspects of the market.
you are concentrating on charges that will be applied to regular payments etc...let me ask you this...if you have a business, do you earn profit? if you have, lets say, a shop, when a customer walks in to buy something do you stand there at the till and explain how much his purchase cost you, how much your electricity/rent etc costs and then your percentage of profit you take from the sale...if not, why not? if you truly believe things should be that transparent surely you would.
and all that talk about banks siphoning money...when? lets say, I book a trade for 10000 at 1.13 when the interbank rate is 1.135. this will give me €11300 euros... that amount of euros cost my broker £9955.95 so they earn £44.05(minus running costs...) from that deal...then they deposit €11300 into my account...
In fact I do have the experience to back up what I'm saying.
Yet you've failed to challenge anything specific. The gross detail I've gone into to expose the full nature of the issue gives you all you need to verify what I've said. It's all verifiable information. You've demonstrated lack of understanding, and you've only made broad claims that amount to "garbage spouting". Try challenging a single claim that I've made, and come up with something factual -- I challenge you.
May 19th 2009, 8:55 pm
#20
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Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam
I use these people:
www.currencyonline.com
They are part of the HiFX group (they have a banner on this site). They are run by the Bank of New Zealand and state their tranfer fees up-front which are quite reasonable.
www.currencyonline.com
They are part of the HiFX group (they have a banner on this site). They are run by the Bank of New Zealand and state their tranfer fees up-front which are quite reasonable.
I did look into HiFX, and discovered that each transaction involves negotiating an exchange rate over the phone. My speculation is that the brokerages cost in man hours for all the quotes can't be favorable for the bottom line. At first glance, currencyonline appears to be more automated.
May 20th 2009, 2:04 pm
#21
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Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam
For what its worth I use currencies direct.I have regular payments by d/d. I get a good rate generally and no charges. I get paid into a Spanish bank that doesnt charge for receiving
May 20th 2009, 4:37 pm
#22
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 213
Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam
Of course I have - but unless you can be specific about what you're not understanding, you can't expect folks to help you with whatever concept you're struggling with.
im not struggling with any concept at all...this is a very simple issue here, you say brokers banks siphon money...i have never suffered from this scheme, also, it wouldnt be the brokers bank, it would be your own receiving bank.
From this statement and other comments you've made in this thread, it's clear that you've made an attempt at getting breadth on the topic, but not depth. You're not focused. You need to be able to isolate different aspects of the market.
I invest in property on a global scale so am constantly sending funds through my broker, so believe me, i know the charges inside out even though i have never incurred any. focus...i wouldnt be in the position to do what i do if i wasnt focused.
Good example. Of course I would want transparency. Although I don't care what the owner pays to the supplier, because the price I pay is what matters to me. But I fully expect to know what my price is. If the store owner quotes me €20, and I agree to pay €20, I'll have good reason to protest if I discover some hidden charges after I've committed. Eg. Merchant tells a client to wire him €20, but then merchants bank (not the clients) siphons off €5, so the merchant then tells the client he only received €15, and must pay the rest before he will fulfill his end of the contract. Of course consumers demand transparency in the costs to the consumer.
not once have i ever sent x amount of funds and only y amount has cleared in their account, again, you will dispute this but perhaps i am lucky in that way
Of course. But that's not to say that every method in which they make money is ethical. There are acceptable legitimate ways to make money, and there are unacceptable illegitimate ways. In case you're wondering, misquoting a client is an illegitimate method to make money.
perhaps not, but fortunately this doesnt seem to be a regular occurence...misquoting is one thing, but if someone sends funds and their own bank charge a sending fee on the funds that is not the brokers fault...
That segment of the transaction is not where the wire siphoning happens. No wonder you're confused. You need to go back and re-read how the wire siphoning scam works.
If your bank takes a fee in Europe, that's a shame, because most banks servicing a retail client don't take any fee from their own client on an inbound wire. But at least you know what your own bank charges you, as you have a business relationship with them. Again, that's another red herring; you need to re-read how the scam works, because it's not the client-facing bank that takes an undisclosed fee from the consumer.
i dont see that there is a scam that has affected me in any way shape or form and by the look of the answers on this thread, you must be on your own there.
In fact I do have the experience to back up what I'm saying.
and a huge chip on the shoulder accompanied with the kind of defensive attitude that comes from a narcissitic "all i say is correct" attitude
Yet you've failed to challenge anything specific. The gross detail I've gone into to expose the full nature of the issue gives you all you need to verify what I've said. It's all verifiable information. You've demonstrated lack of understanding, and you've only made broad claims that amount to "garbage spouting". Try challenging a single claim that I've made, and come up with something factual -- I challenge you.
im not struggling with any concept at all...this is a very simple issue here, you say brokers banks siphon money...i have never suffered from this scheme, also, it wouldnt be the brokers bank, it would be your own receiving bank.
From this statement and other comments you've made in this thread, it's clear that you've made an attempt at getting breadth on the topic, but not depth. You're not focused. You need to be able to isolate different aspects of the market.
I invest in property on a global scale so am constantly sending funds through my broker, so believe me, i know the charges inside out even though i have never incurred any. focus...i wouldnt be in the position to do what i do if i wasnt focused.
Good example. Of course I would want transparency. Although I don't care what the owner pays to the supplier, because the price I pay is what matters to me. But I fully expect to know what my price is. If the store owner quotes me €20, and I agree to pay €20, I'll have good reason to protest if I discover some hidden charges after I've committed. Eg. Merchant tells a client to wire him €20, but then merchants bank (not the clients) siphons off €5, so the merchant then tells the client he only received €15, and must pay the rest before he will fulfill his end of the contract. Of course consumers demand transparency in the costs to the consumer.
not once have i ever sent x amount of funds and only y amount has cleared in their account, again, you will dispute this but perhaps i am lucky in that way
Of course. But that's not to say that every method in which they make money is ethical. There are acceptable legitimate ways to make money, and there are unacceptable illegitimate ways. In case you're wondering, misquoting a client is an illegitimate method to make money.
perhaps not, but fortunately this doesnt seem to be a regular occurence...misquoting is one thing, but if someone sends funds and their own bank charge a sending fee on the funds that is not the brokers fault...
That segment of the transaction is not where the wire siphoning happens. No wonder you're confused. You need to go back and re-read how the wire siphoning scam works.
If your bank takes a fee in Europe, that's a shame, because most banks servicing a retail client don't take any fee from their own client on an inbound wire. But at least you know what your own bank charges you, as you have a business relationship with them. Again, that's another red herring; you need to re-read how the scam works, because it's not the client-facing bank that takes an undisclosed fee from the consumer.
i dont see that there is a scam that has affected me in any way shape or form and by the look of the answers on this thread, you must be on your own there.
In fact I do have the experience to back up what I'm saying.
and a huge chip on the shoulder accompanied with the kind of defensive attitude that comes from a narcissitic "all i say is correct" attitude
Yet you've failed to challenge anything specific. The gross detail I've gone into to expose the full nature of the issue gives you all you need to verify what I've said. It's all verifiable information. You've demonstrated lack of understanding, and you've only made broad claims that amount to "garbage spouting". Try challenging a single claim that I've made, and come up with something factual -- I challenge you.
May 21st 2009, 4:00 am
#23
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Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam
Most FX companies make very little on ROPS, they don't provide the service for that reason. The other thing is landing charges, that is purely down to your bank, not the fx broker. We can't control what the receiving bank may charge you. The only person that can do that is you. If you talk to them most of the time they will drop or reduce it. As a whole, some not all FX brokers do provide a very good and fair service.
May 21st 2009, 6:28 am
#24
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Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam
Of course not. I've demonstrated that - and you failed to bring anything meaningful to the thread.
Most FX companies make very little on ROPS, they don't provide the service for that reason. The other thing is landing charges, that is purely down to your bank, not the fx broker. We can't control what the receiving bank may charge you. The only person that can do that is you.
In most of western Europe, the client's bank charges zero for SEPA wires, and there's nothing to reduce. The bank the client doesn't control is the broker's bank. Only the broker has a contract with the broker's bank. The broker's bank has no reason to talk to the broker's client. And indeed, this is why it's the broker's bank that does the siphoning.
May 21st 2009, 7:49 am
#25
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Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam
without posting another "red herring" all i can say to humoru you is you are right, everyone else is wrong. this conversation is going nowhere if you cant simply admit that maybe your extensive research is not relevant to every broker in existence...you seem to be the only one on this thread that believes in this siphoning scheme so on that note all the best
May 21st 2009, 12:31 pm
#26
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Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam
Aren't brokers policed by any kind of of organisation?
May 21st 2009, 2:40 pm
#27
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Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam
not neccessarily for the time being...they are classified as money service providers and as they are not speculative companies they are only governed by hm customs and excise, according to my broker, that is changing and all companies should be fsa regulated in the near future...
May 22nd 2009, 1:42 am
#28
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 11
Re: A lot of forex brokers run a wire transfer scam
Most forex brokers will claim wire transfers are free, but they'll make an arrangement with their bank where the bank grabs money as it funds or leaves the forex account. Customers don't know they've been scammed until after the money appears in their brokerage account, short of what was sent from a SEPA bank to a SEPA bank. The European financial system seems to have no defense against this scam.
Has anyone confirmed by way of experience any forex brokers that are not running this type of scam?
Has anyone confirmed by way of experience any forex brokers that are not running this type of scam?